The Crone: The forbidden face of the divine feminine

reply to post by miragezero


I'm not talking about a female led society...maybe the world would be a better place if women were simply included. A little balance would be nice.

Originally posted by silent thunder


Interestingly, the Christian version of feminine divinity excluded any portrayal of one of the most powerful aspects of the Goddess, the face of the old, wise crone. Three faces of feminine divinity were common throughout pre-Christian traditions, that of the Virgin or Maiden, the Mother, and the Crone. Mary embodied the first two as both Virgin and Mother. The third face of the Crone, representing the culmination of feminine power and wisdom, was excluded from the Christian canon of saints. The Church's rejection of the Crone is significant in that it is precisely the Crone figure who later came to symbolize the ultimate enemy of the Church—the witch.

PLEASE GET THIS FEMINIST [SNIP] OFF ATS.

there no conspiracy here, whats to like about an old withered hag? feminism sure was fun when you were young and you could sell it to men in return of a ride on the slip and slide! now youre old and no one wants you. And abortion is murder.



Removed censor circumvention and sexual reference (and fixed quote tags)

[edit on 11/5/09 by masqua]

reply to post by Lebowski achiever


Maybe women of a certain age do not NEED to be young OR sexy. She is wise and has other abilities that define her.


I love hearing this from a man! I finally have gotten to that point and it is such a wonderful relief! I was a pretty good looking woman in my 20's and 30's and as I started to age, I did the panic thing in my 40's. Funny, even at 51 I still look ten years younger than I am, but just don't care about appearing young. I am even taking the plunge and for the first time in 30 years allowing my natural color, which is now quite gray to come through.

I so agree that aging is about becoming confident in who you have become according to the way we live and respond to the things in our lives. I think this age is so freeing, there is a clarity that I have now on femininity that I never had before.

Growth is wonderful, isn't it great that we have a new opportunity for growth and development every morning.

Originally posted by redhead57
The woman was revered as the giver of life as the child or seed grew within her body and the same body nourished the young life. As the ground gave life to the seeds planted so the woman gave birth all life!

but let me guess, you think abortion is absolutely wonderful don't you?

Originally posted by UselessEater

Originally posted by redhead57
The woman was revered as the giver of life as the child or seed grew within her body and the same body nourished the young life. As the ground gave life to the seeds planted so the woman gave birth all life!

but let me guess, you think abortion is absolutely wonderful don't you?

Dude chill out.

You seem to be quite the misogynist.

Your earlier statement "what's to like about a withered old hag" was way out of line. That is someone's grandmother or mother you speak of like that.

The debate of male vs female is eons old. Some would say one is better then the other.

The fact is neither is better then the other. The reality is working as a team with both partners playing on the others strengths and supporting where the other may be weaker, the partnership is complete. In an ideal partnership or world for that matter both are valued and appreciated. Now, I'm well aware that this isn't a perfect world and sadly women are often unappreciated let alone under-appreciated.

I believe that it is human nature to be afraid of that which we don't understand. Men and women think, feel and act differently and we don't always understand where the other is coming from. The natural fear response kicks in and because men are by in large physically stronger then women they do tend to dominate. Women also don't understand men although I believe we understand men much better then they undersand us but this is because women are more in tune with nuances of communication spoken and unspoken.

Throughout history women have been persecuted for being women. Men feared our knowledge and our power to carry life within us and to endure the pain of childbirth. However, try as they might men in positions of power be they Christian or non-Christian couldn't eradicate our power because it is based on our instinctive knowledge and our ability to nurture life. We have the ability to bend with the wind and endure. A wonderful example of our power is actually a sad one; but many times men who have been badly injured; in great pain and fearful of death will call for their Mothers.

The Crone is the 3rd and I believe most powerful phase of being a woman. It is the culmination of a lifetime of wisdom and knowledge. I'm proudly at the crone stage and in all honesty I wouldn't go back to be a 20something. I'm happy with where I'm at. I feel stronger and more confident in myself then I ever have. I feel more confident in my sexuality then ever. I rejoice in my age and have pride in what I have accomplished. I see every day the increase of respect that women have in society. Yes, we have a long way to go but compared to where we were in the 70's it's like night and day. A wise person told me that tolerance is something people develop when they can afford to; meaning that unless basic needs are met people will do whatever they have to do to survive.

Originally posted by interestedalways

Originally posted by UselessEater

Originally posted by redhead57
The woman was revered as the giver of life as the child or seed grew within her body and the same body nourished the young life. As the ground gave life to the seeds planted so the woman gave birth all life!

but let me guess, you think abortion is absolutely wonderful don't you?

Dude chill out.

You seem to be quite the misogynist.

Your earlier statement "what's to like about a withered old hag" was way out of line. That is someone's grandmother or mother you speak of like that.

Everywhere I turn all I see is this brainless [SNIP] that passes for scholarship because our universities have been ransacked by these crazy bull dykes who think scraping a baby out of a uterus is, at best, a trivial procedure and at worst, worthy of honors. The feminist program has expanded to just about everything making life miserable for men in 1) marriage, 2) the workplace, 3) education. Now they want to expand it to old age as well. How about we tell the old hags to shut the hell up and hope to god you have a family who loves you and stop asking taxpayers for subsidies and other crap because your entire life is an absolute wreck?

currently, Men are at the point where they no longer want to participate in society. Its only a matter of time before the whole [SNIP] mess collapses on these dumb [SNIP] heads.



Removed censor circumvention.

Please read Courtesy is mandatory

[edit on 11/5/09 by masqua]

reply to post by UselessEater


If you read the post you quoted by Redhead, you would see that she was speaking in quite the nourishing Mother sense, nothing that relates and the opposite actually of abortion.

So what motivates you to combine the two?

You took from a beautiful statement and smeared anger all over it.

I am sorry for whatever made you so full of such............

reply to post by Lebowski achiever

And don't get me wrong: I am not saying men are better than women and vice versa. I hate those discussions as well as they are futile and irrelevant.

no - I didn't think that's what you were saying at all - it's also not what I'm saying

and I agree - I absolutely hate those arguments - which gender has the most flaws...useless

but I agreed with you because whatever issues women do have to work out in a man's world - sometimes they get in each others way - sometimes very obviously - sometimes it's more subtle - but it happens

Women and men are different on certain levels but they are not better or worse then the other.

agreed

...if you review cases of women being bad to the point of being evil they are judged harsher than men having done far worse things (think Moira Henley). Anyway, that is not the discussion...

actually - I think it's a very important part of this discussion - and I see what you see here

the only thing I can come up with is - women are mothers - mothers are not supposed to be evil. It seems the greater betrayal maybe because to a certain extent - we expect bad behavior from men.

there's enough gender bias to go around - and I think both sexes catch hell for the wrong reasons sometimes - sometimes they're each given more credit than they deserve

Can you be a bit more specific as to what you are asking me? What exactly would you like to know. I am not sure I understand.

earlier on in the thread - you said some things I thought were interesting - and I was just curious about how you meant them - though I think I know

you said:

It is true that women, past 40, are not allowed to be sexy and when women ignore that "Rule" quite often they are ridiculed for it.
Women of a certain age are deemed to behave age appropriate and that often means being de-sexualized and sterile.
Women who are strong and are outspoken but also do not do much with their appearance are harpies and shrill The term Crone no longer has a positive conotation and women who are elderly are pitied rather than respected.
People wince when a woman is are overtly sexual if not in the age bracket of 20-30.
People tend to think that they are ridiculous and pathetic. Women are not allowed to be old except for one way: "gracefully"

I thought these were all interesting - coming from a man (I'm assuming)

not that men don't ever see this - just - I don't hear it all that often. It sounds like maybe you've got the ladies backs is all - :-)

but, you also said this:

After all, There is nothing more pathetic than seeing mutton dressed as lamb, is there? I have often said it, too.

so, it all bothers you - but you buy into it to some extent? you've also said women buy into it as much as men do - I only partially agree with that - but I do agree

just wondering where you place yourself in all this?

Originally posted by Lebowski achiever
Thank you for this thread. It is true that women, past 40, are not allowed to be sexy and when women ignore that "Rule" quite often they are ridiculed for it. After all, There is nothing more pathetic than seeing mutton dressed as lamb, is there? I have often said it, too.
However, this is something that both women and men believe.

Women of a certain age are deemed to behave age appropriate and that often means being de-sexualized and sterile. Women who are strong and are outspoken but also do not do much with their appearance are harpies and shrill (think Germaine Greer). The term Crone no longer has a positive conotation and women who are elderly are pitied rather than respected. It is total indoctrination, instigated to weed out paganism by the root.

[edit on 11/5/09 by Lebowski achiever]

what you never heard of cougars?

reply to post by wassy


Actually no. I haven't. But tell me, is it meant as a compliment or is there still a form of derision?

Originally posted by dizziedame
Very interesting post. Thank you.

I well remember some old women being referred to as Crones when I was a child.

Now that I am an old crone I can see and understand the stages a woman goes through in her life.

I would like to add the newly coined term for a 40ish woman who still dresses like a spring chicken. The "Cougar" very aptly describes that age group.

Not to infer that all 40ish women are"Cougars" but a good many certainly are. I know because I went through that stage too.

Back on topic....I believe women were more highly thought of several centuries ago.

The down playing of woman's role in society has, in my opinion, has been brought about through the many translations of the Holy Books. The christian bible being a perfect example.

An interesting post. Women's role in society has always been downplayed. The traditional picture of the average 50's/60's era family portrayed the feminine authority figure more like a pet slave. Kids, dishes, cooking the food, doing the laundry, etc. while the "Dad" worked for a living to support his family. I am a true believer in conservative family values but I have never really understood this..

The average "Mom" these days might be single with kids due to higher divorce rates, possibly making more money than most males out there. But this is only because the modern feminine culture has made this a more normal and socially acceptable sign of the times. The social norms that in many ways guide human social behavior have evolved along with the feminine movement to a certain degree (At least in the U.S.). Sexism is still around but I really believe that females have more opportunities today than they ever have. In this way, I don't think women's role in society has been downplayed like you say. If anything, it is being acknowledged (at least it should).

If anything, we have come a long way. But there are still alot of sexist societies/cultures out there that are extremely different than our own. This is where religion comes in to play. In many countries, the social norms still portray women as inferior and openly demoralized due mostly to the overpowering male figures in these cultures that insist on traditional religious/spiritual approaches to how the family unit should really operate (The male dominance in the family also being traditional here). There might be some religious women out there that insist on living "traditionally" like this. But the truth is.. I think if they knew how they were really just being openly demoralized and devalued compared to women in our society that they would probably be a little upset..

Just because something is seen as "normal human behavior" in a society,
just because something is seen as "traditional and proper" in a society, That doesn't make it right. Alot of this, too, is governed by moral principles which are all determined by religious and/or traditional values. I believe that we all are born with a sense of moral right and wrong (to some degree) and that only some of it is taught. But I am also a non-religious person that views all religions as evil, demoralizing, contradictory, and hypocritical/comical. I might not like it, but most of the laws in our own country (the U.S.) have generally been shaped and molded to be morally equivalent to the Christian Bible. Religion plays an immense role in all societies when it comes to morals, values, family structure, and laws. Alot of us hear and preach about separation of church and state but that separation really only exists conceptually in modern politics since much of what dictates our own moral structure, whether we are religious or not, comes from the bible itself. Of coarse, there are always some exceptions to any rule.. And some laws do blur the lines between what is normally/traditionally accepted in society and what isn't.

I believe that in a marriage power and authority belong to whoever takes that authority/responsibility and what demands/insistances these people make on their spouses for taking on what they see as this burden of responsibility. Its a power struggle until a point where a happy balance is acheived on some level. In a marriage, I can speak from experience when I say this process can take years. But even in the more traditional religious societies out there (Muslim, hindu, even Christian) the women really do carry most of the load when the male thinks he's the one "taking care of business". This is really the rule, not the exception. This is the same everywhere around the world I think. The only thing that seems to vary is how women are viewed and treated in the different cultures of the world.

It's extremely important for men to feel some level of meaning, purpose, and importance with relation to the rest of society. For men, alot of times it's about leaving behind a legacy. But for women, it's about taking care of the men and really running the household and the family all at the same time (sometimes more than that). A woman that secretly knows she really does wield the most power/influence in the marriage should let her man feel important/valuable even if he doesn't acknowldge her efforts ALL THE TIME. Because sometimes he will notice. If he doesn't, he's probably just a pompous dou54ebag. But I guess some societies are so completely unrecognizably different when compared to ours that women just get looked at like pawns, trash cans, breeding machines, and housekeepers.

Something else,
Ladies.. I know you might not like doing all the housework, the chores, and everything in between. But you are the glue that keeps this show running. You should be given all the opportunities, love, and freedoms you deserve.

The only thing worse than a sexist pig is a sexist pig that won't even acknowledge what females do for us and society in general. All males out there with a spouse probably owe all their successes to the support and caretaking of their spouse. But I really think this is ignored in most of the more traditional societies. How women simply accept these norms of society and live like a demeaned slave in some of these cultures is beyond me. But somewhere they are psychologically justifying their actions (They have to be). Maybe they are making excuses, maybe they are in denial, maybe they just don't have any idea of how far women's rights have come elsewhere on the globe. But it will continue to be a problem.

-ChriS

[edit on 12-5-2009 by BlasteR]

reply to post by Spiramirabilis



I see myself as someone who is conditioned to believe that women are not supposed to be sexy beyond a certain age. My common sense tells me it is not right, but yes, at times, when I am not guarded, the indoctrination pops its ugly head.

I also agree that women are seen to be mothers and nurturers which is extremely important and yes it is seen as a form of betrayal when they are bad. However, I do not agree with judging a woman harsher as she is also human and is capable of evil as much as a man although not as often or as depraved. Some women do not possess nurturing capabilities and were never meant to be mothers.

However, Mothers are often being judged harder for their mistakes raising their children than fathers. I actually view that as setting impossible standards for mothers as we all make mistakes (whole shrink offices are filled with mothers issues). However, women are often the upholders and enforcers of these impossible standards...and the harshest of judges and critics when these standards are not met.

There is a Crone in early Christian history. The Shepherd of Hermas:

While I was thinking over these things, and discussing them in my mind, I saw opposite to me a chair, white, made of white wool, of great size. And there came up an old woman, arrayed in a splendid robe, and with a book in her hand; and she sat down alone, and saluted me, "Hail, Hermas!"
...
Now a revelation was given to me, my brethren, while I slept, by a young man of comely appearance, who said to me, "Who do you think that old woman is from whom you received the book?" And I said, "The Sibyl." "You are in a mistake," says he; "it is not the Sibyl." "Who is it then?" say I. And he said, "It is the Church." And I said to him, "Why then is she an old woman? "Because," said he, "she was created first of all. On this account is she old. And for her sake was the world made."

reply to post by Lebowski achiever


thank you for that

I was rereading through the thread this morning and realized - if I'd been more thorough in my reading yesterday - I wouldn't have had to even ask

you explained your position very well several times :-)

as far as this:

I see myself as someone who is conditioned to believe that women are not supposed to be sexy beyond a certain age. My common sense tells me it is not right, but yes, at times, when I am not guarded, the indoctrination pops its ugly head.

you mentioned in another post that women also buy into the rules society has determined - and I agree - even when we don't like it - we certainly do play along

I wish there was a way we could all agree to stop

but - some of this is a part of nature - and Mother Nature is a hard one to boss around sometimes :-)

reply to post by Lebowski achiever


probably a lot of both

my best friend is a cougar (self-proclaimed, and proud of it)

:-)

actually - she's recently married - so, her active duty cougar days are probably behind her

so - I'm sure there's any number of people who might look at her and think she's ridiculous - but, she''s someone who does what she wants when she wants and doesn't spend a whole lot of time worrying about what people think - so it doesn't affect her

she looks her age - dresses herself attractively - but not in any way what some might think of as being too young for her age

I think it comes down to attitude more than anything - she just didn't buy into the idea that at a certain point she was supposed to put away her lipstick, lower her hemline 12 inches and stop being interested in men - not even younger men

:-)

Originally posted by dizziedame
It would only be fair and just that I bow out of this discussion as all the women in my family have always been revered and held up as most accomplished...

No, don't leave. It sounds like you have a lot to contribute to it!

A woman has only to reach high and command the respect she deserves by her actions. The only enemy of woman is her ignorance of her part in our world.

Agreed. The same goes for men. But not everyone can do it. There's a reason why some lead, or blaze a lonely trail, while others follow, or just mill about uselessly, complaining.

By the way: who was Dodde?

Concerning famous women down the ages, I'm rather partial to Zenobia, Queen of Palmyra (who kidnapped the Roman emperor Aurelian and made him fall in love with her) and the Empress Theodora, who made it all the way from a cathouse bed to the throne of Byzantium. Gibbon is fun to read.

reply to post by undo

Star for you, undo.

Nice to see at least one woman who knows her history.

As for the rest of you: get real, girls. The best time and place ever to be a woman is in the secular West, right now.

As for this Goddess business, it's is just New Age twaddle for the ladies' room. Goddesses, like gods, are nothing but human instincts personified. Since women are no better than men, goddesses are no better than gods. Fortunately for the human race, neither exist.

reply to post by Lebowski achiever

I see myself as someone who is conditioned to believe that women are not supposed to be sexy beyond a certain age. My common sense tells me it is not right, but yes, at times, when I am not guarded, the indoctrination pops its ugly head.

I must disagree with this.

You are not conditioned by society to believe that women aren't sexy beyond a certain age. You are programmed by evolution to find them unsexy.

Sexual desire and sexual pleasure are selected for because they promote survival and reproduction, the complementary purposes of life. Men are programmed to find only fertile women sexy. That is why youth is one of the attributes of a woman's sexiness as far as most men are concerned.

Every artificial attribute used by women to enhance their desirability mimics a fertility signal. And looking younger is the name of the game. Why do you think that is?

I should add that nature's agenda need not be one's own. One of my friends got married at 40 to a woman of 63 - and no cougar, either. I guess fluffy-haired old biddies with granny glasses and filthy tempers are what float his boat. It's been nearly ten years now and they're still married.

"The third face of the Crone, representing the culmination of feminine power and wisdom, was excluded from the Christian canon of saints"

St. Ada
St. Adalsindis
St. Adalsindis
St. Adela
St. Adela
St. Adela
St. Adelaide
St. Adelaide
St. Adelaide of Bellich
St. Adele
St. Adelina

stopped in the middle of the "a's" it goes to z.
and of course mother thersa is up for the bid

inaccurate statement.

Another issue is that of gender bias. Ask a man who was his biggest influence and he is apt to say "mom". I suggest women know women- and raise sons accordingly

another point- procreation- there is a range. freudian and natural instinct
is not "wrong" other than in the subjective social sense.


[edit on 13-5-2009 by ScreamtheDance]