The Crone: The forbidden face of the divine feminine

reply to post by dizziedame

...The only enemy of woman is her ignorance of her part in our world.

I'm not sure it's her only enemy - though I do believe we can often be our own worst enemies

but what you just said is true - and this is our only real choice:

... A woman has only to reach high and command the respect she deserves by her actions...

love that

it's only as real as we allow it to be

The maiden the mother and the crone, the goddess in all her glory! How nice to find people here that honor and recognize her greatness. I agree with the OP that too many in "modern" society have forgotten all about this most important manifestation of the Divine Feminine.

A good read is the classic Chalice and the Blade which nicely breaks down many of the symbols of the goddess that have been vilified by the religions of the male gods. The woman was revered as the giver of life as the child or seed grew within her body and the same body nourished the young life. As the ground gave life to the seeds planted so the woman gave birth all life!

I think that much of the fear of women that has been rampant in this planet is largely sexual in nature at its root. The man enters the woman with all his strength intact and withdraws limp and drained, yet the woman is able to engage in sexual act after sexual act with no obvious drain. You may laugh at this but ancient man did not have the knowledge of the body that we do today. Hence the fear of the power of the woman. One common thread among all misogynists is their fear of women, too bad they are too closed minded to see that we do need each other!

The value of the maiden and the mother is obvious to the male dominated society. Maidens are the beauties that men run after, mothers are how mankind continues on, but the crone that is where the wisdom of both phases of life reside. Each phase of the moon has its purpose, each phase of the goddess does as well. I am grateful to now be in the time of the crone, I am 51 now and the wisdom I have makes what I used to think I knew nearly a joke.

We don't value our older population and especially older women. As a species we wont' ever advance until we learn to see the value in all of our fellows. It is not about male power or female power, but is about the proper balance of both. Once we realize the true trinity is indeed father, son and mother we just won't get anywhere. For fun do a search on the feminine nature of Shekinah, the glory of god as spoken of in the OT. You will see she has once again been hidden under a cloak called the Holy Spirit.

i guess since eve took the apple off the tree of knowledge/life we have suppressed the divine wisdom of the feminine.

are midwives a sort of a Crone.

a great example for me is when my son was born and the exposure we had to what midwives go through.

We heard about homebirthing and it seemed natural that it was way to go. Get a midwife and develop a relationship with her so she could guide us through the whole process of growing and delivering a human being into the world.
Well, the one who was recommended to us couldn't help because she was not allowed to access insurance.
Our male doctor advised that natural birthing with a midwife was dangerous.
we found one and didn't tell our doctor, we even had contractions when at the hospital for a check up and raced the opposite direction, home.
The wisdom and confidence we gained from our midwife was enlightening and the birth was the most beautiful experience of our lives.( well my ex will argue, considering she had no drugs!)

anyway the point is that midwifery is an example of the wisdom that the older generation of woman can impart , but it is consistently suppressed and obstacles are put in the way.
any other examples of feminine knowledge we seem to still suppress like this?

reply to post by Spiramirabilis


To comment on women being the harshest critics of other women; I don't think that is true in every society but in our society it seems to be in certain cases e.g looks, demeanor, bitchiness and also workload. Women will judge a woman who doesn't do the housework but lets the man do it but when a man does the minimal and the women does everything it seems to be tolerated a whole lot more.

And don't get me wrong: I am not saying men are better than women and vice versa. I hate those discussions as well as they are futile and irrelevant. Women and men are different on certain levels but they are not better or worse then the other. There are bad men and there are bad women. However, if you review cases of women being bad to the point of being evil they are judged harsher than men having done far worse things (think Moira Henley). Anyway, that is not the discussion.

Can you be a bit more specific as to what you are asking me? What exactly would you like to know. I am not sure I understand.

This is something that I found this morning and sent to a friend of mine while discussing what happens when you become a career mother and you loose the person (woman) inside. When you start feeling like a spit rag, maid, etc...and forget how beautiful and sexy you are.

"Take heart, My children, take joy and courage in our Mother. For She that created you also loves you, even to the end of the age. Take heart, though you have turned from Her. For She has not forsaken you, neither are Her eyes filled with anger. And Her hands that have shattered the gates of Hell shall not harm you; that have broken Hell’s foundation shall be lain on you in gentleness. Therefore hide yourself not from Her, and put aside the tangled weeds of thought that strive each with the other. For of all things, love is the simplest."

I am battling with this as well with the whole growing older thing. I will be 30 in a few days and my mother will be 50 so both of us are going through some aging things. I, however, being Pagan embrace my age, my grays and all of the other things that come with it and am doing a much better job than my mother did at my age or she is even doing now. She is what you would call a "Cougar." She still tries to dress like my 2 younger sisters who still live at home with her, does the botox thing, does whatever she can to stop the aging. I welcome it with open arms. I wish that all women could do that.

I read a great book called "The Crone" by Barbara Walker.

Recommended for anyone interested in this subject!

Hekate and what she symbolizes is another great source as the crone, although she carries all three phases of womanhood her most known image is that of the Crone who is able to create new life from decay, or phosphorus.

Death and Rebirth is a main thrust when it comes to understanding the function of the Crone.

There is much mystery in the "wise blood" of an older woman who has learned to use her changing body in a positive way.

Hahaha! Most people think of old women with messy hair and no teeth over the cauldren bringing back the dead like in the movie Pumpkinhead when they think of a crone, or the mean witch from Hansel and Gretel.

Personally I look forward to this time in my life when it comes.

[edit on 11-5-2009 by interestedalways]

reply to post by camillenoire

It takes enormous strength to embrace your femininity and your age without reaching for the potions, support garments, and mutilations that society thrust upon us all. It has gone too far, I totally agree.

I resent that women who are clearly attractive smart and older are dismissed as too old to be sexy. I hear it all around me and we have not moved beyond it. Being old is being invisible and if you are a crone you are in the eyes of our society a sad lonely old woman. It is a loss to all of us. Of course a woman does lose the ability to reproduce somewhere between 40 and 60 and because our society is not only focused on youth, Sex is also a main driver. Maybe I am approaching it wrong. Maybe women of a certain age do not NEED to be young OR sexy. She is wise and has other abilities that define her.

So that leads me to the question: What exactly is the main thing a Crone does (in the past and now)? What would you see yourself do when you reach 50 or 60 and become a Crone?

I would just like to point out here that as a Christian, I don't persecute, look down upon or feel superior to any woman. I love my wife as my equal and in many ways try to serve her as much as I can. As Paul said in Ephesians 5:25:

"Husbands, love your wives just as Christ loved the church and gave himself for her"

When Jesus was teaching his followers, he did not just tell them to do this or that, he set examples for them by doing it Himself. He forgave "sinners" and mainly spoke out against the church and all of the holy men of the day - as He likely would today. He washed his followers feet. He became a doormat to all. This is how much He loved us and he commands that we love our wives this much - not the religious dogma that has been passed down by the political churches ruled by men and the fear that they preach. We are to love our wives in the same way as Christ loved people - by serving them instead of ourselves.

Those of us who can read and study for ourselves realise that one of the most - if not the most - important desciples of Christ was Mary Magdalene. We also never fell for the catholic teaching of her being "a whore caught in the act of adultery". Jesus was the first to openly have women students and allow them to speak freely and teach others and touch Him - all of these things were wrong in that time. So, follow this with the rules of the catholic church and some of the other "catholic light" churches out there who do not allow women to be preachers, who think women are little more that child-bearers and servants of their husbands. Compare these beliefs to the teachings of Christ himself, and then say it is the 'Christians" who have lessened the importance of women. It is not the true Christians, but organized religion that has nurtured this attitude toward women. A Christian follows Christ and His teachings - love, patience, goodwill, serving all - not the teachings of religion. Christ himself railed against the religious. So please, don't blame the very few true Christians left in the world for this attitude - blame religion.

And off topic - to the person who said that Christians would just condemn you to hell or whatever - anyone who has actually read the Bible and studied the original words in the original languages could tell you that there is no word anywhere in the Bible that translates to "eternal burning torment" or "hell". A more accurate translation of those words (sheol, hades, gehenna) would be "the grave". So I as a Christian would not condemn you to a place that does not exist.

Also, this generation of kids (and by kids, I include people in their 20's)and their self adulation, with the girls posting nude or provacative pictures of themselves on the internet is just making themselves objects to use for pleasure. And they don't even care. They're fine with just "hooking up". I don't see how girls making objects out of themselves can be blamed on anyone or any belief other than their own narcissism.

Oh, and for the record - I way prefer older women to younger women. There is more maturity and more confidence in older women. Plus I just think they are hotter than younger ones.

reply to post by Lebowski achiever


I went to a Christian Church school for most of my life. Every single Sunday I watched all the women including my mother parade their children around in their "Sunday best" my 2 sisters and I in matching outfits with bows in our hair and then stood outside in the parking lot after wards, the men talking about sports and the women all talking about their education and careers. There were the women that my mother and her "working mom" friends would scoff at for being those stay-at-home moms. On several accounts when I was growing up I heard my mother say to us and to other parents that there was no way she could stay at home with us all the time, she would go mad. I learned at a very young age that was not the kind of woman that I wanted to be.

I have been told since I was a teenager that I was wise beyond my years which is something I treasure. I have never understood all the things that society deems a beautiful or sexy woman. This by no means should leave you to assume that I don't wear make-up, get my hair done every 6 weeks (I manage a all natural hair and nail salon) or wear some of the latest trends. I am healthy but by no means am I a 4 in fact I prefer my curves of a size 14 (the Goddess figure is very important to me). In my salon, I talk to a lot of girls and women about weight and I actually have girls get upset with me because, "Not everyone can be so comfortable with their sexuality in a size 14.." and I can't understand why not. What does weight have to do with sexuality?

To answer your question, "What exactly is the main thing a Crone does (in the past and now)? What would you see yourself do when you reach 50 or 60 and become a Crone?"

I believe the main thing a Crone does is teach, enlighten and share the stories of how she transitioned from Maiden to Mother to Crone. I have been doing that for 11 years now =)

you need to get over blaming christianity for everything, from why the world is a mess to why relationships between men and women are so screwy.

PAGAN GREECE

female children were killed at birth because the male was the end all be all of everything. it was a pederastic society, which essentially means that the adult men gave the majority of their time to apprenticing young boys, who they taught everything, including sex (literally). women were primarily for producing offspring and were not welcome in the male society.

the grecian female goddess aspect was therefore, the alter ego of the "superior" male homosexual and not a veneration of women

ANCIENT INDIA

female children were killed at birth and still are today, although the government of india is trying to stop it. the tradition of killing their female children is due primarily to the vedic tradition of dowry, paid by the family of the wife to be to the family of the husband to be. if the dowry is not met to satisfaction of the husband's family, they're authorized to kill the wife to be in any fashion they see fit.

in their past history, the population of females got so low, the only one capable of having wives were the maharajis, who would go to war against each other, to steal each other's wives and women folk (even the female children and old ladies that lived in the maharajis house hold). to keep invading maharajis from getting their women, upon hearing of an immenent invasion, they would round up the women (young and old alike) into the middle of the city and set them on fire.

ANCIENT CHINA

female children were killed at birth, and still are today, this due primarily to their one child policy, although the government of china is trying to stop them from doing it. in the past, it got so bad, there were nothing but roaming gangs of single men who formed small armies, who eventually took down the imperial china.

and don't get me started on the norse traditions, pagan rome and a plethora of other societies that had the same attitude (or worse) towards females. jesus teaching of equality between the sexes was like cutting edge modern by comparison. paul was a bit behind the curve, however.

cease and desist with ignoring most of history, please.

reply to post by Lebowski achiever


Here is a link that will help with your question as to the purpose of a Crone.

www.cronemagazine.com...

The modern definitions of Crone are hideous, just another aspect of societies need to label, define and designate.

Throughout my life I have been served up some pretty hearty doses of male supremacy .. I took it and moved along... but I see a feminine comeback simply because this male dominated world has not been working.

reply to post by undo


I blame certain Christian and Islam sects and any and all other religions that put a pair of pants on God. Religions keep alive and practice discrimination of women.

reply to post by Witness2008


doesn't matter to me if it's pants or a dress. the eternal body is sexless from what i've read. and don't skirt the issue by trying to pretend it isn't a human problem rather than a religious problem. it's not RELIGION. it's the human condition.

RELIGION is not an ENTITY. religion is composed of human beings. it's the people not the religions of the world, that perpetuate anti-female thought.

reply to post by undo


I agree God and the eternal body to be sexless. However organized religion has manged to assign gender to it. It may not matter to you but it could very well matter to a woman living under the heavy hands of Islam.

Religion is a condition created by humans.

reply to post by Witness2008


religion is a form of government, and was so for thousands of years. the laws of religion were moral guidelines for every aspect of society, from the gardens of the ziggurat to the home. it included in it, the worship of the local god. eventually, some guys got together and decided for the rest of us, that the gods didn't exist and made new laws that kept some of the moral guidelines and threw away the rest, but don't kid yourself... modern laws are the red headed step children of ancient government, which was tied directly into worship of the god and goddess.

reply to post by undo


The most ancient civilizations were "Naturalistic" Gods and Goddesses were representations of the natural environment as were the social laws.

Institutional religion came into being in order to give explanation to the unexplainable. Religion evolved depending on the social stresses of the time.

Some religions evolved into monsters that subjugated and murdered, others the more Pagan practices languished thanks in part to a patriarchal insistence that the feminine be hidden or destroyed.

Just look at the conditions in the world right now, it's not a result of human nature it is the result of a one sided belief that the male side of our species is superior.

Originally posted by Witness2008
but I see a feminine comeback simply because this male dominated world has not been working.

WTF are you talking about. NO female led society has ever survived and there have been several. If you've ever worked among just a bunch of women you can see exactly why.

Originally posted by miragezero

WTF are you talking about. NO female led society has ever survived and there have been several. If you've ever worked among just a bunch of women you can see exactly why.

male dominated societies don't seem to do so well, either.

Wonder how well we would do where gender, caste, race, religion, et al, became less important than intent, ability, and drive were the measure of a person.

We cannot speak "honestly" about gender difference. It creates hostility. To say you are better in one area tends to upset others due to the fragile human ego. It is a shame.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan


male dominated societies don't seem to do so well, either.

Wonder how well we would do where gender, caste, race, religion, et al, became less important than intent, ability, and drive were the measure of a person.

We cannot speak "honestly" about gender difference. It creates hostility. To say you are better in one area tends to upset others due to the fragile human ego. It is a shame.

Male brains are generally better in some areas, females in others. As for male dominated society not doing well... since we only have utter failure as a reference point it's kind of moot to make a claim about it. I think we're doing ok... so long as religious and nonscientific thinking stays out of it we'll be fine... and eventually the argument will be moot, I believe, as technology will inevitably replace gender differences as we know it.