The Crone: The forbidden face of the divine feminine

Unfortunately, the portrayal of The Crone in pop culture is often a nagative one and is often in horror films to either scare or to mock.
Swamp Witch - Jim Stafford is a good example of The Crone in a song.

Swamp Witch Lyrics.

Black water Hattie lived back in the swamp
Where the strange green reptiles crawl
Snakes hang thick from the cypress trees
Like sausage on a smokehouse wall

Where the swamp is alive with a thousand eyes
An' all of them watching you
Stay off the track to Hattie's Shack in the back of the Black Bayou

Way up the road from Hattie's Shack
Lies a sleepy little Okeechobee town
Talk of swamp witch Hattie lock you in when the sun go down

Rumours of what she'd done, rumours of what she'd do
Kept folks off the track of hattie's shack
In the back of the Black Bayou

One day brought the rain and the rain stayed on
And the swamp water overflowed
'skeeters and the fever grabbed the town like a fist
Doctor Jackson was the first to go

Some say the plague wasa brought by Hattie
There was talk of a hang'n too
But the talk got shackled by the howls and the cackles
From the bowels of the Black bayou

Early one morn 'tween dark and dawn when shadows filled the sky
There came an unseen caller on a town where road run dry
You'd swear there was found a big black round
Vat full of gurgling brew
Whispering sounds as the folk gathered round
"It came from the Black Bayou"

There ain't much pride when you're trapped inside
A slowly sink'n ship
Scooped up the liquid deep and green
And the whole town took a sip

Fever went away and the very next day the skies again were blue
Let's thank old hattie for sav'n our town
We'll fetch her from the Black Bayou

Party of ten of the town's best men headed for Hattie's Shack
Said Swamp Witch magic was useful and good
And they're gonna bring hattie back

Never found Hattie and they never found the shack
Never made the trip back in
There was a parchment note they found tacked to a stump

Said don't come look'n again!!!!

Typical stereotype of The Crone, living alone in a bayou somewhere , amongst reptiles, with vats of brew.
The one redeeming part of the stereotype is when the local town is overtaken by a mystery fever so they then go see the Swamp Witch for her magical brew that cures the town.

It represents the time when Crones were forced into Isolation and were only called on when needed and even. very reluctantly.

I'm in my 40s now and am in Crone age demographic, but there is no way I'll ever be shoved to the fringes! Anyone who tries that on with me, better look out!

reply to post by CrygSol

You got the man, creator of souls, and the women, eater of souls. Society will never change this.

and me feeling extra hungry this morning

reply to post by silent thunder


and interesting piece, and very telling.

While ageism runs rampant, it has also been known that the Crone symbolized knowledge and many times a female leader. Both of which are very different from the Christian ideal, where in many forms of Christianity, chiefly back in the older days, Women were mostly property, cooks and a warm hole at night.

One can see then very much so why Christianity would seek to demonize this part of the (then) conventional outlook. That is how Christianity has worked with sweeping oher reigions and cultures under the run, by demonizing thier saints, gods, and so on and putting their holidays over the pre-existing holidays.

Originally posted by MonoChromeWrayth
I am coming from the male perspective and to me it seems that ... " traditionally " the male was the protector, hunter and a source of physical labour. All these things can be measured a lot easier than wisdom and knowledge. With the advent of civilization the male's " traditional " role is reduced which sent them into survival mode.

Which is why they attacked the role of the Crone, because she was the source of knowledge and wisdom. Because when the necessities of life are taken care of, there is naught left to do but learn from those that know more than you.

Knowledge plus wisdom equals power. There is nothing more scary to a " survivalist " than a power they do not understand.

Sorry if this is hard to understand... I don't think in linear lines
It jumps around a lot in there

I agree in part with what you're saying, but except for men being the hunter/protectors. What about Athena/Dianna who is the female virgin huntress and warrior? What about the myth about the Amazons? Maybe this has more to do with women being pushed out of the equation. I think that men know darn well we could live without them and given the technology we have now, we can even breed if there were no men left, as long as we still have an operational freezer to keep sperm frozen in. I really think that is what scares men. That we can survive on our own without them. The difference, given our nature, we would never do that, but because men would like to do that, they think that we would think in the same way. I hope this makes sense. I am trying to say in their mind they are thinking "given the chances of survival were in our favor, we'd wipe out the female of our species" so they think we'd do likewise. Now it is evident men can start a baby in a petri dish, but they can't carry the child. But someday I am absolutely sure they will have the technology to gestate a fetus with mechanical means. Then us women better run and hide!

reply to post by worldwatcher

It is said that Kali is free from the false consciousness...

Kali rocks

she's a personal favorite of mine

talk about someone who can cut through all the crap

:-)

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
As for the age thing, i think this isn't just women that are disrespected as they age. Ageing as a whole is seen as bad, people don't appreiciate wisdom or experience anymore. It's a sad state of affairs now when in the past the older members of a tribe or society would be revered and treated as the holders of great insight.

To this I reply with :
www.ascentofhumanity.com...

"We are not just here; we are here for a reason." I don't think I've ever penned a more banal spiritual cliché, but it is true nonetheless. Can you feel that in your bones? Young people know it most certainly; we call that knowledge idealism.

They know that there is a way the world is supposed to be, and a magnificent role for themselves in that more beautiful world. Broken to the lesser lives we offer them, they react with hostility, rage, cynicism, depression, escapism, or self-destruction—all the defining qualities of modern adolescence. Then we blame them for not bringing these qualities under control, and when they finally have given up their idealism we call them mature. Having given up their idealism, they can get on with the business of survival: practicality and security, comfort and safety, which is what we are left with in the absence of purpose. So we suggest they major in something practical, stay out of trouble, don't take risks, build a résumé. We think we are practical and wise in the ways of the world. Really we are just broken and afraid. We are afraid on their behalf, and, less nobly, we are afraid of what their idealism shows us: the plunder and betrayal of our own youthful possibilities.

Unlike the tribes of the past, the wisdom of the old is a myth. It's gone People are indoctrinated since youth, then they themselves indoctrinate others. Some are wise indeed and lived their life as they wanted, modern society did not influence them, but they are few.
What's so bad about modern society that I cannot respect anything that has to do with it ? Kind of everything.

The importance of this self-respect as a prime motivator of human nature can hardly be overstated; it may enable an individual to defy civilization, even in the face of the hatred of the whole modern world. When an individual acquires fundamental self-respect, then s/he will be made a fool no longer, and all the blows of civilization are nothing but the battlescars of a proud warrior. Civilization is powerless against it, because a person who has re-claimed fundamental self-respect cares nothing about the laws and standards of civilization.

This self-respect leads to genuine self-love, the second and decisive step on the path to sanity, for self-love (and happiness in large measure) consists in becoming one’s own ideal again, as in childhood. This self-love eventually overflows and becomes love for others and for external nature.

Glenn Parton: “The Machine in Our Heads” (1997)

[edit on 11-5-2009 by pai mei]

I would like to point out just one thing that I think is very important here and that is 'Christianity' as we see it operate in the world today is NOT following the teachings of Jesus Christ but rather is 'Paulism'.

Christ said nothing derogatory about women but the Apostle Paul was an out and out mysogynist and it is his teachings that the so called 'Christian' faiths follow.

Paul derided women as second rate and Catholicism drew on this which is why Catholicism is not called 'Christianity' but 'Catholicism'.

Ecclesiastes 7:25-29:

25
I applied my heart to know,
To search and seek out wisdom and the reason of things,
To know the wickedness of folly,
Even of foolishness and madness.

26
And I find more bitter than death
The woman whose heart is snares and nets,
Whose hands are fetters.
He who pleases God shall escape from her,
But the sinner shall be trapped by her.

27
“ Here is what I have found,” says the Preacher,
“ Adding one thing to the other to find out the reason,

28
Which my soul still seeks but I cannot find:
One man among a thousand I have found,
But a woman among all these I have not found.

29
Truly, this only I have found:
That God made man upright,
But they have sought out many schemes.”

Deena Metzger is a longtime writer, public speaker, poet and activist on the topic of crones, women and aging, etc. Here is her website:


www.deenametzger.com...

I notice that many of her earlier feminist writings are no longer listed on her website, however. Check on Amazon for the complete listing of her writings.

There is also an interesting feminist website I found:

www.dangerousoldwomen.com...

I found that website as a link from the website of Caroline Casey, the radio show host, whose own website is:

www.coyotenetworknews.com...


I can also recommend the cookbook "Embracing menopause naturally" which is described on the author's website:


www.kushiskitchen.com...

The book also features interviews with many strong women from all walks of life.

[edit on 5/11/2009 by Uphill]

reply to post by walman

Walman - I suppose that scripture explains why the prisons are overflowing with violent men prisoners and there are relatively few violent women prisoners!

In the end, we have to consider the fact that a book written by men is not necessarily going to give a fair view of women and may well reflect the view, perhaps potentially mysogynistic, of the man who wrote it.

We all know in our heart of hearts that this scripture is untrue since we all know many good, excellent, fantastic, king, loving even godly women and therefore we are all witnesses to the ecclesiastical BS that is enclosed in this scripture.

Many people do not know the history of the bible and choose to believe that it is written by a divine creature, but if the bible also says that god made man and woman in his OWN image this is more than enough evidence that either the bible is flawed or the ecclesiastes writer is a flawed mysogynist!

Which one do you prefer?

reply to post by walman


Ahhhhh Solomon. Owner of 700 wives and 300 concubines. These are the types of world and historic figures that are revered. Women have a long hard struggle ahead given the vast majority of the worlds population still cling to the beliefs that made us second class citizens.

Islamic practice of hiding women so as to not tempt men into lascivious thought, public beatings, and then the wonderful practice of honor killings are accepted by the world at large. If these acts were perpetrated against the male half of any country I would venture to say that the world would rally against such brutality..but given it happens to women it is a cultural and religious matter.

As long as we have the major religions tooting their superior MALE God women will continue to be one dimensional objects.

What a great topic and one near and dear to my pagan female heart. I am Wiccan and honor the Goddess in all Her aspects. When I was doing my training, I was very fortunate to have had a fabulous Crone as my high priestess and teacher. Rosemary was wonderful and between her and my mother, also a strong beautiful Crone, I really got good training on how to be a cool Crone. Of course, the Lady has a sense of humor and so now that I'm in my mid-50s and ready to start being a C-I-T, Crone in Training, what aspect of the Goddess is foremost in my life? You got it - Mother. I've a 6 year old daughter adopted from China and I don't have time to be Crone Oh well, maybe I'll get back to being a CIT in 10 or 12 years

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


I believe that the harshest critics of women are women. I am not sure why this is but I see it in the workplace as well. Men swan in and out of the office and do as they please (or it appears that way) and none of my colleagues bats an eye. However, one of my female colleagues did the same and you should hear my other female colleagues tear her to pieces. My male colleagues also saw it it but they were more inclined to let it slide.

reply to post by Lebowski achiever

I believe that the harshest critics of women are women. I am not sure why this is but I see it in the workplace as well...

I'm hope this thread - this excellent subject - doesn't turn into a who is better/who is worse thread

not that I think that's what you're doing -

I think what you just said (though I can't comment on your example) is not exactly true - but it is partly true - I see that myself

I was actually going to ask you a question about one of your earlier posts - about how society doesn't exactly dig the "woman of a certain age" (I've always loved that - was never sure about what age the certain age was...)

:-)

I couldn't tell exactly where you were coming from - I understand how you think society sees it

how do you see it?

reply to post by Lebowski achiever

I believe that the harshest critics of women are women.

And for what do they reserve their harshest criticism? Their irrational susceptibility to and deference towards men.

Just as we men often kick ourselves for making such suckers of ourselves over women.

Who dares devise a solution to this conundrum shall be torn to pieces by dogs.

[edit on 11/5/09 by Astyanax]

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984

Originally posted by CrygSol
I belive women have a long way to go to be respected at any age.

I'm sorry but no, not anymore. Women here in the UK are respected. There are still pockets of ignorance but they are small. What is interesting is how it is now turning around with men being portrayed as stupid, lumbering, fools. Check any sitcom and you find the woman is powerful, succesful and able to manipulate her man with ease. Women have gone from oppressed to starting to treat men how they themselves used to be treated. I'm sure many women will say good and that men deserve a taste of their own medicine. I would ask however if that makes them worse than the original oppressive men.

As for the age thing, i think this isn't just women that are disrespected as they age. Ageing as a whole is seen as bad, people don't appreiciate wisdom or experience anymore. It's a sad state of affairs now when in the past the older members of a tribe or society would be revered and treated as the holders of great insight.

I think that's mostly a big city problem. Since i've been in the city, i've noticed a complete lack of respect of women for men. Last saturday, on a double date, things were going well, and it was lookin' like i was gonna "get some" (if ya'll only knew how dry it's been around here lately!!!). These chicks started calling me names, getting worse and worse, in what seemed to be some sick twisted way of getting to know me by gauging my reactions to various insults. I stood up and left the two girls, who i'd known for an hour, after the one i was with called me a small-dicked pedophile, and didn't understand how i could be offended by it, i sttood up and left. I came back in because i'd forgotten to pay, in my anger. I kind of feel sorry for how little they understand.
ANd no, i'm not a small-dicked pedophile, maligners, it's just a disgusting show of disprespect lack of understanding.
Girls in smalltown bc, the worst thing they'll do is leave you cause they HONESTLY feel they want to. You can't ask for much more than that.
Hope i'm not derailing......

reply to post by Astyanax
I just finished reading your profile and all your threads. Your intelligences is most impressive and your forethought powerful.

And you have found me out.

Before the mid 1600's if a family had Von in front of their family name it suggested that family to be royalty. When my ancestors fled early 1600 Germany there was Von before our family name. It was dropped from the name when the family reached England.

In 1734 my family sailed from England to Ft. Frederica on the Georgia coast.

All my female relatives on both my maternal and paternal sides have been extraordinary women.

You have uncovered that which I didn't realize about myself. I am judging women by my standards which have been programed into my family for hundreds of years.

Women like Razia Sultana, Noor Jehan, Dodde, Hatshepsat, Cleopatra V11,
Queen Mary 1, and Catherine 11 are the normal for me.

It would only be fair and just that I bow out of this discussion as all the women in my family have always been revered and held up as most accomplished and certainly women of great substance.

I leave you with this thought. A woman has only to reach high and command the respect she deserves by her actions. The only enemy of woman is her ignorance of her part in our world.

reply to post by caitlinfae


Aye right! 43??? I remember your other avatar, and I thought you looked about 23!

----------------------------------------------


I've never seen anyone make this link between Christianity and ageism towards woman - it's spot on though. Older men are often regarded as venerable and wise, yet women (for no sane reason) are not afforded the same respect. Personally, a beautiful & intelligent woman is a beautiful & intelligent woman, regardless of age. I've always preferred older women (even as a teenager) because young girls heads are generally full of nonsense, even the well educated ones. They say woman mature quicker than men but I would disagree. Is it really mature to be obsessed with celebrity gossip? I'd say no but I guess the sales figures of all those stupid magazines proves me wrong, eh?

Anyway, COUGARS RULE!!!

reply to post by Astyanax

:-)

And for what do they reserve their harshest criticism?

to be fair - and, speaking from the inside - sometimes we can be a little mean to each other - and it has nothing to do with you guys

or at least - not directly - or obviously

Just as we men often kick ourselves for making such suckers of ourselves over women.

poor dears

Who dares devise a solution to this conundrum shall be torn to pieces by dogs.

reply to post by Pilot



Yes, Pilot, I see the antagonism all over the place. The only hypocrisy i see in women is demanding emotion and then callling you weak when you display it. That is not to say we don't have ours, it is just a new one that i was previously unable to put together.

I did an almost aimless experiement last year. I moved to the hub of activity in my city, and kind of, well, made myself ugly. I grew all the hair i had, wore my work clothes around a lot, and then just kind of existed, noting any significant changes. What surprised me was it was mostly women who looked over 40 who were judging the most, as while i was ugly they'd hesitate to interact with me at all, while now everything's like "hun" "darlin", etc........an example of the ignorance of a generation kept out of the sun?
i'd say so.
Maybe younger women know think they know too much? I dunno, but i'm really curious as to how something i want makes so little sense to me
.....as objectively as humanly possible.......