The Crone: The forbidden face of the divine feminine

reply to post by silent thunder


S&F. Thanks for the thread. IMO as soon as God was assigned gender it was down hill for women. Ancient cultures revered both sexes with equal gods and goddesses.

Ancient Hebrews helped spread the idea that women were lesser and should be treated as property, Islam is also cut from Hebrew cloth..... both religions follow ancient Hebrew law, which is easily found in the old testament of your average bible.

There are two books that I would recommend...Merlin Stones "When God Was A Woman" and "The Malleus Maleficarium" (The Witches Hammer). The later gives you a good sense of the Churches hatred for women.

I too am a Pagan, a Wiccan, and am proud to be one too. We are still oppressed to a point by Christians, who will quickly tell us we are going to their Hell for not being a Jesus follower. I often ask them where in their beliefs is God's Wife? They have this trinity, with Father, Son, and Holy ghost, which I am told is male, where is the female here?
Now I am a man, and I am sure that any man in this forum will agree with me that we have not the slightest idea what women are thinking, and how their minds work. Agreed? So tell me then, sure a male God could create a man, but who created the woman then? A woman gave me life, nurtured me, fed me, cared for me.I did not spring from the loins of a man. The GodHead is a polarity of male/female energy, not just male exclusively. I think we are seeing a return of Goddess worship in America, and all over the world. Kudos to the OP.

reply to post by autowrench


I think what frightens many of the religious is the power they know only women have. The power to create. I had a Mormon once tell me the reason why women have no standing in the Church as regards spiritual leadership is because if they did the equality would not be there, it would be lopsided in favor of women....so in many minds our only strength should be as child bearers.

My introduction to conspiracy and alternative history was reading Barbara G. Walker back in the late 80's "Women's Encyclopedia of Myths and secrets"... the Zeitgeist material is covered in that book re the church and who Jesus really was, I think she was the first source I came across that claimed he was based on sun god worship from Egypt. I lent that book out and never got it back and then bought another and did the same. It was a real eye opener.

Our culture encourages antagonism between the sexes, just as it does between the left and right, black and white, etc. I think people are starting to get it though and the reality is we need each other and we need to learn how to cooperate. But that is obvious.

Great topic OP S + F!

Originally posted by autowrench
I too am a Pagan, a Wiccan, and am proud to be one too. We are still oppressed to a point by Christians, who will quickly tell us we are going to their Hell for not being a Jesus follower. I often ask them where in their beliefs is God's Wife? They have this trinity, with Father, Son, and Holy ghost, which I am told is male, where is the female here?
Now I am a man, and I am sure that any man in this forum will agree with me that we have not the slightest idea what women are thinking, and how their minds work. Agreed? So tell me then, sure a male God could create a man, but who created the woman then? A woman gave me life, nurtured me, fed me, cared for me.I did not spring from the loins of a man. The GodHead is a polarity of male/female energy, not just male exclusively. I think we are seeing a return of Goddess worship in America, and all over the world. Kudos to the OP.

Beautfully stated!

Originally posted by Pilot


Our culture encourages antagonism between the sexes, just as it does between the left and right, black and white, etc. I think people are starting to get it though and the reality is we need each other and we need to learn how to cooperate. But that is obvious.

Great topic OP S + F!

That is totally true. They instigate these things so we're so busy arguing between us that we won't see the manipulation they are using to control the matters we all should have say in.

Originally posted by CrygSol
I belive women have a long way to go to be respected at any age.

I believe it is the opposite that is true. Men are the ones who have a long way to go before women are respected.

If a man were to apply logic, the strength portrayed in women is astounding. It isn't the physical kind. The role of the mother, for example. There is a thoughtfulness and dedication that is not seen elsewhere. The role of the working single mother highlights this to a greater degree.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


As a single mother.. but mostly as a woman your comment has gone a long way with me. Thanks.

"S&F. Thanks for the thread. IMO as soon as God was assigned gender it was down hill for women. Ancient cultures revered both sexes with equal gods and goddesses"


This is the basic tenant for what is wrong with society, imho, when god was assigned gender to support patriachal current political, religious and monetary societal structure.

The first statues made were of women. For thousands of years the largest statue in the world were of the great Goddess, the most powerful guilds (organized Unions) in the middle ages were midwife Guilds. Nature was God, and Mother Nature was its representative. The male figurehead was in the stars ( heavens) and both Ruled in equal measure. The earliest hebrew texts refer to god as

The Previous poster referring to the Witches Hammer ( malefactorium) is correct, read this book to understand the hatred ruling class had towards Women.

The Political and religious structure in middle ages colluded to eliminate power women had in society, and used cold and calculating methods; The witch was portrayed with instruments we associate with them to this day, A broom, a couldron, a cat, healing with herbs and potions.
What woman in the middle ages did not have these items...all required to maintain a household and health of the family unit. It was easy to accuse someone of being a witch, especially when the witch's estate was divided up between the church, government and the accuser. It was a money making scheme as well as eradicating the influence of a group that sustained society.

The church organized witch hunts, and hysteria took over. We can see the same mass hysteria on websites, such as the end of the world fear regarding 2012. Add to hysteria the ability to execute and confiscate estates of the accused by a group focused on destroying their influence, it was a self reinforcing movement bent on murdering powerful women wholesale across Europe...we live today with results of what the Church and ruling parties did hundreds of years ago.

An interesting side note, the salem witch hunts in USA ended when one woman was smart enough to implicate the mayors wife as a witch...when the ruling powers were threatened, the salem witch hunt stopped.

The Crone ( grandmother, wise woman, goddess) is a lost part of our human history. All ancient cultures incorporated her into their beliefs and venerated her as healer, spiritual leader, and arbitrator. It is our loss that this system was destroyed and replaced.

reply to post by caitlinfae being 40 is like a halfway point. am i old or am i still young? some women get a young guy out of fear of growing old. i read where alot of movie stars pose for playboy out of desperation to show they are still young. my thoughts: get an old man and then you don't have a thing to worry about.

reply to post by Lebowski achiever


Who in the heck ever said women over 40 aren't allowed to be sexy??

Originally posted by Witness2008
"The Malleus Maleficarium" (The Witches Hammer). The later gives you a good sense of the Churches hatred for women.

Just for clarification, "The Malleus Maleficarum" translates to "The Hammer of/against Evil-doers/Witches". "The Witches Hammer" might suggest that the hammer "belongs" to the witches.

reply to post by WonkoTheSane


It is not that anyone says it as a rule but if you look at how women are portrayed in the media when they are past 40 it is right there under the surface. People wince when a woman is are overtly sexual if not in the age bracket of 20-30. People tend to think that they are ridiculous and pathetic. Of course Hollywood actresses are the exception but if you look at the career of most of them, the amount of offers after 40 does decline. Women are not allowed to be old except for one way: "gracefully". Of course you may not think so but I bet you catch yourself doing it when you watch Britain's got talent, for example, and you have a fairly attractive 49 year old belly dancer giving a fair performance. All the reactions are the same. " Put it away, we do not want to see".

reply to post by SugarCube


I stand corrected.

A good link for the overview of the book. www.malleusmaleficarum.org...

I am coming from the male perspective and to me it seems that ... " traditionally " the male was the protector, hunter and a source of physical labour. All these things can be measured a lot easier than wisdom and knowledge. With the advent of civilization the male's " traditional " role is reduced which sent them into survival mode.

Which is why they attacked the role of the Crone, because she was the source of knowledge and wisdom. Because when the necessities of life are taken care of, there is naught left to do but learn from those that know more than you.

Knowledge plus wisdom equals power. There is nothing more scary to a " survivalist " than a power they do not understand.

Sorry if this is hard to understand... I don't think in linear lines
It jumps around a lot in there

Thank you for this thread. This is definitely a topic that is coming into people's minds more and more these days. It really seems that the once repressed feminine energy is clawing it's way to the surface and one day will burst out screaming "I'm here!! You thought you could keep me down? Well...I'm ba-ack!"

I too think that this world would be a much better place if women were properly revered. I am in no way saying that men are incapable of creating a better world. What I am saying is that, as in all of nature, there needs to be a balance. Without that balance chaos reigns. I think the world would be equally worse off if women had all the power as men do nowadays.

I see the suppression of the feminine energy has led to men always having to prove how macho they are and show their dominance over women just as some women have become these ice queens who think all men are evil.

But, like I said, I really see this struggle going on that I fully believe will ultimately end in an equal balance of the male/female energies. I can't wait for that day! Oh what a wonderful world this will be! It might not happen in my lifetime but if there really is such a thing as reincarnation I would love to come back to experience it.

reply to post by WonkoTheSane


Hey no me, I am after all at my age I am very much sexy and happy with life.



May mother nature bless women's aging.

[edit on 11-5-2009 by marg6043]

reply to post by dizziedame

I believe women were more highly thought of several centuries ago.

Interesting. Could you say when and where exactly? Was it a widespread phenomenon or more of a localized one? Were all women highly thought of, or only a few privileged ones?

Give some thought to your answer. It is true, for example, that certain women were greatly venerated in Ancient and Classical Greek society - they were priestesses, mostly, or seers, lucky upmarket working girls or the occasional warrior queen - but the vast majority lived greatly constrained and disadvantaged lives, essentially as the property of their menfolk. I know of very few times and places in which this was not the rule - the exceptions one finds are rare and usually quite short-lived.

I don't agree that this is how things should be, but it seems to me that it is how they have always been - till now. The power balance between the sexes is something fundamental to a species. One of the most profound changes in human evolution is taking place before our very eyes. Whether it is a change for the better - from the viewpoint of human survival - remains to be discovered.

Originally posted by jjkenobi
Do you consider Catholics to be Christian? They pray to Mother Mary. She plays a prominent role in their belief system. And yes, she is a woman.

And Hinduism and Buddhism also has goddesses, but those associated with beauty, wisdom, grace, prosperity are portrayed as young beautiful women, while a goddess like Kali is portrayed as demon like figure because she shows the side of a woman's rage and is associated with death and destruction.
She is the Hindu equivalent to the crone, but she still gets respect and has a devoted following..

hinduism.about.com...

Kali's fierce form is strewed with awesome symbols. Her black complexion symbolizes her all-embracing and transcendental nature. Says the Mahanirvana Tantra: "Just as all colors disappear in black, so all names and forms disappear in her". Her nudity is primeval, fundamental, and transparent like Nature — the earth, sea, and sky. Kali is free from the illusory covering, for she is beyond the all maya or "false consciousness." Kali's garland of fifty human heads that stands for the fifty letters in the Sanskrit alphabet, symbolizes infinite knowledge.

Her girdle of severed human hands signifies work and liberation from the cycle of karma. Her white teeth show her inner purity, and her red lolling tongue indicates her omnivorous nature — "her indiscriminate enjoyment of all the world's 'flavors'." Her sword is the destroyer of false consciousness and the eight bonds that bind us.

It is said that Kali is free from the false consciousness and so is the Crone.

reply to post by MonoChromeWrayth


I understood perfectly what you were getting at and I think it makes perfect sense!

I honestly think a male's perspective is needed in discussions like these.

I can definitely see how, as society became more modern and there was no need for hunting and gathering anymore (among other things), men started reacting in a way that suppressed women so they couldn't rise above them which ultimately would have occurred, not that it's necessarily a good thing.

In a strange way, I think this is actually a necessary reaction. Because if not, as I said in my previous post, then the feminine energy would be in abundance and so the energies would not be in balance resulting in a different type of world that would most likely not be harmonious, just as it is today with an abundance of male energies.

I do think, however, that this necessary reaction eventually went absolutely haywire and brought about the feminist movement of the 60's. Now, it seems there is this struggle between the two energies going back and forth trying very hard to find that perfect balance.