OT God not the same as NT God.....

reply to post by dominicus

Yeah but somebody told you this. How do you know this is true???? Have you investigated this yourself directly in meditation.

Meditation??? (just kidding with the triple question marks)This is my meditation. Writing answers to posts. The terminology is a result of my "meditation" but the general concept comes from reading the Bible. (my other form of meditation)

So it would be blatant to say the spiritual experiences of Xtians are of God, but the same exact ones that other spiritual groups have are of the devil.

You are right about them being the same but that is not proof they are right. Look at your own post. Catholics killing heretics. Because they called themselves Christian did not make it right.

Jesus should have just showed up in the very beginning of time so as to not have all this confusion in the religions of the world, plus he should have showed up to all the groups, hindu's, buddhists, natives, etc.

Jesus came in the right time when all these different religions were coalescing into a synthesis that would have been undefeatable if he had come any later.

Instead, he only and strictly appeared to the animal sacrificing jews. Isn't that interesting. It's as if everybody else will figure it out, but the jews specifically were lost.

The people they replaced in Canaan were sacrificing people.

waiting for God to come down and blaze fire and brimstone destructing everyone but Christians. That makes me sick.

Same here, brother.

He came so that the oneness he has/had with God, he can show us how we can have that too.

I think you are misunderstanding the verse. He wants his disciples to be one among each other, just as he is with his Father.

They usually want to roast me in an oven for being different than they are.

It is not my business to think that way. I believe in the Bible and recognize what it is and that it seriously needs to be properly interpreted. If I can help out by inserting my own perspective I hope to create a better balance. Bashing people is not on my agenda.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Your bible says establish the law mine says fulfill. Could Christ of been telling us that his real job was to show us what one was like if they followed the law? Not the laws of man but the laws of the Creator.

I tend to agree the OT and the NT are some what differrent in aspect to God. The OT seems to focus on the cup that is clean on the outside but doesn't really pay much attention to the dirty inside. The NT focuses on cleaning that cup on the inside knowing that once cleaned up on the inside the outside gets cleaned also. I'm sure you know that story from the NT about the cup.

I also believe God does not have form or identifying sex. The OT seems to give God a body. Image does not have mean form type image. It could also mean a spiritual type image. If you read other documents that are historical you'll find they also tell the same stories as in the OT. Then you come acrossed another era where they have stories of men like Jesus. All teaching clean up the inside. Some where along the way we focused more on the outside and made laws to control people especially free thinkers. There came a point when it needed to stop.

Jeremiah 8:8-"How can you say. "we are wise, and the law of the Lord is with us? Look, the false pen of the scribe certainly works falsehoods.

Check into Matthew 23 also. It seems to go along with that. They say the bible is not for individual interuptation. Which I have to agree with because everyone is at a different stage in life when they read it. Every time you read it you are at a different stage in life it will say something different to you. What you are looking for you will find in there. If you look for spiritual enlightenment you'll find it. If you look to clean up the outside it will show you that also. If you look for hatred and negitivity it will show you that also. If you look to find only love and peace it will show you that also. If you strive to find spiritual and material balance it will show you that also. It's a rather mystical book it seems to have what you want to find in it. Good or bad its there for the choosing.

Jesus also said Abraham rejoiced to see My day and he saws it and was glad. This is where I have to ask myself what was going on back then that Abraham would of rejoiced and been so glad about if the OT was representing the Creator God in the right way?

I also can't see the God/Father Jesus talks about wanting blood scarifices as the one in the OT. Seems strange for a Creator to requests you to kill his creations when he knows when a sparrow falls. Perhaps thats a mystery in the OT find the real God amongst the false ones. If you know God then you have a good chance of doing so.

Does the bible not say to meditate on the scriptures? Did Christ not say many times let them that have ears to hear, hear? So wouldn't a thought that popped into someones head by chance might be those spiritual ears hearing it if they have been thinking about the scriptures? Perhaps that person is at a different level of understanding or searching for something that someone else isn't at that time. So it might seem to supersede the bible where you are or what you are looking for but does it for them?

I noticed your avatar interesting that you didn't just stop with a head shot of Jesus. You put his hands out offering us something also. Yet I bet not everyone sees him offering the same thing.

It's like the lion and the lamb many see it as meaning peace and no war. They think no further than that. To me it means acceptance and tolerance of others so you have balance. Where you do not have to fight to prove you are right and they are wrong. Where you say maybe we are both right in our own way for where we are.

On this thing about the sabbath day I have some questions. How do we know when exactly is the sabbath day? We can't go by calanders since they've changed over the course of history. God does not reside in man made time as we know it so again how do we know when that day is? The bible tells us that to God one day can be a thousand years yet some times in the bible a day is a day again how do we know what exact day it is? Also do we have to go to church on the sabbath or would a walk in nature communing with God be just the same? Or can we have a friends over to the house and discuss spiritual things and that count as the same? Just what does one do to keep a day holy? What does one not do?

Jesus seemed to have a problem with this sabbath day and what not to do also. He didn't follow the OT rules. You know he never seemed to preach on the OT either. Thats always struck me strange.

reply to post by napayshni57

Jesus also said Abraham rejoiced to see My day and he saws it and was glad. This is where I have to ask myself what was going on back then that Abraham would of rejoiced and been so glad about if the OT was representing the Creator God in the right way?

There is a single word that the Jews used to tell the very important story about the sacrifice demanded by God, it is the Binding. He fell short of actually killing his son Isaak, but he did bind him in order to carry it out, thereby showing his willingness to follow God's commandment.
Jesus was the ram caught in the thicket that was given to Abraham as an alternative to killing his son. He rejoiced in the mercy of God and his not having to go through with something so horrible. We are told this as a story and do not have all the details but I would have to imagine that Abraham was eventually instructed by God how to understand what the significance was of what had happened.
Jesus goes right ahead and claims that Abraham saw him, but we have to think it was Jesus in a representation of him. (otherwise the whole story in the Gospel is meaningless)
That does not really answer your question. You are saying that the superior understanding of God was something in the future for Abraham. How can that be unless the current one was inferior? Well, there was practically no understanding about God when Abraham was alive. God called him down from a Chaldean city to Canaan to promote a proper way to worship God. For some reason, God saw a special importance for this piece of land, maybe because it was the center of the world. I would not want to ascribe some strange significance to it because God said, "When did I tell you to make a building for me?". But God wanted the knowledge of him to be planted in this area. Melchizedek was already there and regardless of the myth generated from a misinterpretation in the Book of Hebrews, I have to think he was about ready to die shortly. God brought in his most direct descendant, Abraham, (assuming Melchizedek was a nickname for the real person, Shem) to take his place. It could be that he knew that way off in the future, Jesus would be at that very spot, fulfilling the thing that was only symbolized by his own experience.

I also can't see the God/Father Jesus talks about wanting blood sacrifices as the one in the OT. Seems strange for a Creator to requests you to kill his creations when he knows when a sparrow falls. Perhaps thats a mystery in the OT find the real God amongst the false ones. If you know God then you have a good chance of doing so.

God never wanted blood. He does not feed on it. Now, the Canaanites believed their god did. Let's say you have a great big boulder that looks pretty good for making sacrifices on. They would cut a groove in it so that the blood would flow down it to a point way under the rock that was normally inaccessible. That was where God ate it. Abraham told people to stop it. He was a mason (of course people stealing the name for themselves is not what I mean) and his mission was to travel around to instruct people on how to build altars. What they did was to make them so it was clear that God was not down there slurping up blood.
God needed this thing to show people that before everything is going to be made right, it was going to cost blood, namely His only begotten son, where he was going to really have to let it happen, and there is no reprieve. It is supposed to tell you there is a cost for your actions, so stop being evil. The same thing happened with Christianity in the late Dark Ages when the church was selling indulgences. Killing more animals does not make God more happy.

So wouldn't a thought that popped into someones head by chance might be those spiritual ears hearing it if they have been thinking about the scriptures?

Not when it contradicts the Bible.

I noticed your avatar interesting that you didn't just stop with a head shot of Jesus. You put his hands out offering us something also. Yet I bet not everyone sees him offering the same thing.

Goes with my signature, which I had first. Jesus offers light. I realize everyone sees things differently and is why I try not to attack people but deal with ideas. I did attack one person's motives because he was obviously baiting me so I let him have it.(happened a long time ago)

How do we know when exactly is the sabbath day? We can't go by calanders since they've changed over the course of history.

They were considered sacred, the days of the week, because they were named for gods and if someone ever tryed to change them, the supporters of that god would have thrown a fit, and it never happened.

Just what does one do to keep a day holy?

Recognize it as distinct and to go back to its original purpose, to recognize the One who created everything, including days.


[edit on 27-5-2009 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by jmdewey60

Not when it contradicts the Bible.

Yeah but modern westernized Xtianity is 1 certain way, with defensive walls built around it. It has to be this 1 certain way or not at all.

Whereas I see the Gospel of Thomas as being left out. I see the gnostic gospels more closer to the mystical truth. I see the Apocalypse of Peter being the more popular vs. Revelations for the last book of the Bible during the council of Nicea.

Guess what Jesus says to Peter in the Apc. of Peter??? Paraphrased Jesus basically says, "Hey Peter, between me and you, eventually everyone returns to heaven."

Just like in the modern day Bible it says all things shall be reconciled onto God. And somewhere in revelations: "To those who overcome I will make a pillar in my house, and they shall go out no more"

As if we were there before and once we return we won't have to come back here to crappy earth.

Along with that I remembered my pre-existence. I was with 3 other souls and they were telling me I had to be born here and experience earth. It was crystal clear memory, I knew that was me then.

There is just too many anomalies in the Bible. To many little hints that it's all alot different then most Christians think, but then Xtianity Westernized takes these anomalies and explains them away to logic and reason. God forbid any mysticism encroaches.

Anyway, I'm glad we can have a civilized and fair exchange on these matters. But still, I really can't take the OT too seriously with all the innocent animal sacrifices and all these human attributes put on a God, who to me is beyond Human, transcending all things and all behaviors, inherently in all things and one with everything.

I just read these OT accounts and laugh to myself shaking my head. The I read the NT words of Jesus and I'm in heaven when the jewels of what he said are grasped. It's sooooo day and night to me.

read this:
the apocryphon of john from the gnostic library


it will explain how the two different gods are and how the OT came into being.

www.gnosis.org...

reply to post by dominicus
I have a pretty good collection of all the non-canonical "bible" books including the gnostic books. I ran out to buy the Elaine Pagels book on the gnostic gospels when it came out, and bought an extra copy for my brother. I do not let some edict in the dark ages scare me away from reading whatever I want. I read the Egyptian book of the dead when i was eighteen.
I did a pretty thorough examination of the "anomalies" a long tome ago. What you have to realize is that there were things going on that the powers that be do not want you to think about.
I am not a stupid person and me claiming, in about as obvious a way possible, to be a Christian, may automatically label me, to a lot of people, as being some sort of closed minded bigot. That is not the case. You can read the gospel of Thomas all day long for all I care, I have read it.
When it comes down to making serious decisions while creating a belief system, not just the feelings of the moment but something you can write down and follow and tell others, you need to base it on something known as being as reliable as possible, and that just happens to be the canonical bible.
When I was young, back in '69-'73 I had people tell me I could not be a Christian because I had long hair, it's in the bible. Paul was stating some things as his opinion and being so, we can blow then off. If you take every single word of the bible as a weapon to hurt people, you are misusing it.


[edit on 29-5-2009 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by jmdewey60

Honestly I can say for me it comes down to this:

Being a Christian Mystic with tons of direct mystical experiences. I can only go by others who I've read who mirror all my experiences. That would be St. John of the Cross, Teresa of Avila, Meister Eckhart, Thomas, and the desert fathers.

What is supposed to happen is you undergo a series of mystical experiences directly. They usually start off with being indwelled with the spirit, illumination, dark night of the soul, then after that Union with God.

I went through these all and for Union, I had a 3 second experience where everything was Oneness. There no longer was a me to experience this Oneness, because in there only being Oneness, there can't be a something to experience another thing.

This is after 5-6 years of profound mystical experiences and guess what? Soon after this 3 second experience, the Gospel of Thomas made COMPLETE sense. Jesus there is speaking in nonduality terms. Something that is extremely advanced stuff and most won't/don't get it.

Guess where else there is nonduality??? Taoism, Buddhism, Advaita, some branches of Sihkism and Hinduism and Sufism.

To me, what Jesus taught and was saying were Universalities that anyone can find and approach anywhere in the word even if they didn't know Jesus.

When Jesus said, "the kingdom of heaven is within you." That is something that has always been true and has been found within by others all over the world prior to Jesus and after. He was speaking of truths and truth is not bound by time.

The Oneness (Union with God) thing for me was the eye opener. It completely destroyed any sense of human qualities that anyone can ever ascribe to God who is beyond words, qualities, characteristics.

Just like semantics is the relativity of words. Well when you experience Union with God, it is direct and it is the same for all who experience this Union.

That's why now I look at OT and I just shake my head. Even when Jesus was here he argued against all the OT teachers, and they killed him for it. And Paul was saying we're really not bound by OT's 1,000+ commandments. Marcion's version of the Bible was pretty much strictly NT, he left all of the OT out of his version.

ANd who was Marcion? An extremely influential, intelligent theologion, and consecrated bishop. FOr such a person so high up in society able to muster up all the top Church leaders of his day for a council to discuss his views .....that's some power and influence I would say.

Well, you gotta think, why would he go and do such a thing, completely dismissing the OT. Took some balls and of course he was excommunicated and so forth. But still. That's saying allot. And many people followed his views, besides the Gnostics (which Marcion didn't consider himself to be one)

Anyway, for me the mystery is that Jesus was secretly teaching self inquiry and nonduality in the Gospel of Thomas. Thats what gave me 3 seconds of realized Union with God, was wrestling with self inquiry and nonduality ala the likes of what Meister Eckhart taught to those who want Union with God, you have to unknow everything, unknow yourself, unknow the mind ...and there will be God to meet you.

Hey it worked for me and put all the pieces in the puzzle together for me. That's whats missing from Xtianity, is self inquiry. In Thomas, Jesus basically says, "Know yourself and you will know God"

All it really is, is to examine who you think you are, how you operate, what your composed of. When you know all these aspects of yourself, the mind becomes tamed, its easier to no longer sin in action and in thought, knowing yourself grants you self mastery. Then at the end of self inquiry, you finally see that which is underlying you, everyone, and everything else, is the Omnipresence of God and you simply melt into Union w/ God.

That's what has been revealed to me, through the Spirit, through being a Christian, by praying and asking for Union w/ God. This direct experience has no words, arguing is no longer necessary, everyone is right according to themselves, but the only truth is this Oneness of God and God's presence in all things.

People can say and think what they want. it's all cloaks/masks. When you correctly "Die to yourself daily" as Paul said ...guess what's there? The Nonduality of God's Oneness, and your Union to that which there is no words for and is beyond mind, abstraction, intellect, etc.

I guess it depends upon what you read about the OT and NT.

There are signs that the presence of the three persons described by
Creator, Mercy and Wisdom were in the OT.

Thus to Christians we have the Creator, Jesus and Holy Ghost.

So same as the old God just a fulfillment of some sorts.
What the fulfillment is then can be answered by both followers
of the OT and NT.

reply to post by dominicus

All it really is, is to examine who you think you are, how you operate, what your composed of. When you know all these aspects of yourself, the mind becomes tamed, its easier to no longer sin in action and in thought, knowing yourself grants you self mastery. Then at the end of self inquiry, you finally see that which is underlying you, everyone, and everything else, is the Omnipresence of God and you simply melt into Union w/ God.

I do not mean to belittle your experience, exactly, but I went through all that, like when I was seventeen. There is something to it, I know, but look at what you are saying; self examination and a revelation that puts who you are in the right perspective. The fact is that most people do not survive it intact. What I mean is their beliefs change and they go after something that seems like what their experience showed them. They come up with what we, meaning people in my particular so-called denomination, call pantheism.
What you had a glimpse of is the rightness, as I would call it, the way things should be. The problem is, things are not. In a right universe, everyone would be one and they would all be one with God. There is a duality and it should not be.
The wrong way to use your vision is to convince yourself and others that it is that way. In my opinion, the better way to use the vision is to understand there is a right, and that we need to overcome the duality, not inside your head, because you already fought that battle, but in the real world to do what you have to do to turn it into the universe that is right.
Not sure if I am using all the right terminology, but, you might understand it. Don't stop whatever you are doing but pull out those things the PTB could not hide, so you can explain it to people who will only listen when it is coming out of the canonical Bible.


[edit on 29-5-2009 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by jmdewey60

so you can explain it to people who will only listen when it is coming out of the canonical Bible.

That's the problem though, is that most Xtians wrapped around the canon are in a box and there is no way out of it. I was there too. When I first became a Christian I took it all in on faith and had a certain reference about how everything works.

Then when I got the Holy spirit, that box was destroyed and I was completely demolished ego wise and shown a reality beyond words.

But still, I operated in a newly formed box. But with the 3 second Union w/ God glimpse, every conceivable ego, mask, cloak, box, reference was all completely demolished leaving only God.

And Pantheism, well there are 2 sides to it. God is everywhere and within everything and everyone. If a person is seeking God and going within to find the kingdom of heaven, but they don;t know about Jesus and never will, (or they are on a different path that's biased against Jesus) ....well who are we to say they are doomed. God is God you know. Blessed is the pure of heart, they shall see God ...is universal truth. If there was some unknown chinese farmer or native american sheep herder who tried all they could to purify their hearts ...they will see God.

Funny thing is that the Union w/ God that I saw is exactly the same one described by the Toaists ......but for me it came from the Christian Mystic path.

As far as teaching, helping others and the duality. I'm sorry to say but in that 3 second glimpse of the truth, it was God exploring/being God's self through every possible possibility., i.e. Jesus says whatever you say/do to anyone else is as if you're saying/doing it to him ....is because inherently we already are all one w/ God. But to see this yourself takes some heart and soul to navigate.

Most people aren't ready to hear this stuff though. There's no point in preaching to most cause it's a brick wall. Just lay some jewels out there subtley and those who are supposed to will ask of you what you know.

Arguing is all bullsh**. There's no point to it. Everyone thinks they are right. But the only right is the Oneness of God being truth. That's when you basically just shut up, sit down, and your jaw drops to the floor in awe. That's it right there. Everything completely makes sense, though to others it never will until the end.

Plus add to that the thousands upon thousands of NDE reports where people discuss heaven having a bunch of religions there, split up into regions, and people who go under hypnosis reporting past lives and originally being drops merged in an ocean of God.

When seen from these Universal point of views, it puts the words of Jesus and his actions in a whole different light. Remember, if he died for peoples sins on the cross, it was for everyone, not just the chosen few. What would be the point of doing it for everyone if most are doomed.

It doesn't matter anyway. If you also glimpsed this oneness, then you know the truth. You know human characteristics ascribed to God is nonsense. You know that God is beyond the Bible and it's words. Then you know that at the end, to have Union w/ God there longer is a "you."

reply to post by dominicus

My longest OBE was spent in Hell.
I always wondered why.
Reading your post makes me think there is an answer.
I am not big on having questions about my past answered.
This might be different because it was about something in the future.
I have heard tell that there were stories of NDE's from people who went to hell but have not heard them for myself.
I never ran into anyone who did not believe in hell before I came to ATS, so it never occurred to me that I could ever find an application for my vision.
Nothing inhumane about the place, just that you can not leave. Only met nice, friendly people there. Nothing that would indicate they deserved it. I felt like I fit in with everyone, and I thought I was a good person.
From my understanding of the situation, it is a temporary stage that is not really for much more of a purpose than to let you know that, sorry about that, but you only have this amount of time to understand what happened to you and then, it's lights out.
See how that works? No flames and smoke and pitchforks necessary. Just the realization is horrible enough.
So, not sure if this helps any one, but it kind of kills the pantheism thing, that is if you believed my story, which I do not really expect. But it is enough to motivate me because I do not want anyone going to that place.
But, what did Jesus say that God told the man in the Rich Man and Lazarus parable?
"And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
I was in the hospital for two months and was number one on the death watch list, so I was right where they could look at me from the nurse's station. For all I know, it could have been a NDE.
Now that everyone is depressed from all that, Jesus did die for everyone. That part is right. Take it.
Here are a couple of sayings of Jesus in Revelation:
"I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely."
"And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."


[edit on 29-5-2009 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by jmdewey60

Funny you bring this up for 2 reasons.

#1, I too saw heaven, and inbetween place where many souls can't or won't believe their dead and a hell. I saw universities where people learned things like being, forgiveness, love, contentment, etc.

#2, good friend of mine from childhood just recently was in a near fatal car crash in north carolina:
www2.statesville.com... 09/jan/28/271520/one-killed-one-injured-interstate-crash/news-local/
He was a passenger in critical condition, comas, lost a kidney, lacerated liver, internal bleeding, etc

Had become a Christians many years ago. From this accident, he left his body while in a coma. Was traveling as a soul up to heaven.

Last second something grabbed him and threw him in a steel like corridor, got raped by a demon, thrown in a lake full of steroid pumped looking piranhas that were biting chunks out of drowning souls. He was getting bitten and drowning.

Then he remembered Jesus and 5 angels show up in a ship made of Light and they pull him, and only him, out of there and take him to the ship where they discussed his fate; enter heaven or back to earth. Then he woke up for a two month long coma.

This coming from a Christian, hard core dude, always quoting the Old Testament and how he can;t wait til God's wrath wipes out all these pagans and sleepwalkers (of course I don't agree) but I don't really argue with him because he's not ready for what I was shown. At the same time though a self professed back slider, preaching to people sunday through thursday then on weekends out drinking/smoking with the boys and sleeping around.

Also we have Fr. Seraphim Rose. Eastern Orthodox priest who always had OBE's and visions. He said there are Aerial toll houses, where the soul has to travel through the chasm between earth and heaven, on the way there passes up these toll houses of trickery set up by demons that test you, trick you, condemn you to hell or to reincarnate. When I showed my freshly de-comatosed hard core OT loving Christian buddy this theory/vision ...his jaw dropped. It definitely opened him up more into more of the mystical philosophies of Christianity.

Just goes to show. Who really knows how the afterlife works. I have read about 10 NDE books, and only one of them touched on the versions of Hell. They said only about 5-10% of people of all the NDE's reported, ascribe a trip to hell. Who knows how many go unreported.

I do agree they are both there. I think maybe we send ourselves there. I think maybe allot has to do with enlightenment being activated. Jesus says 2 things about entering heaven. Only those who are like children will enter, and only those born of water and spirit will enter.

If you have Union w/ God, like what many of the Mystics and Toaists describe, it is like being a kid again, without the mind labeling and judging, everything becomes fresh again. I can see how these types would enter heaven having become child like again.

As for the water/spirit thing. My theory is that having the Holy Spirit when you die, guides you past all the toll houses and takes you directly to heaven. What's funny is later after professing this theory about the spirit guiding past all this, I found an account in one of the gnostic gospels (forget which one) but basically its the account fo the deaths of one of the disciples and what happens afterwards. The Spirit is there w/ the disciple guiding him past every single toll, gate, trap, obstacle, test, etc.

Even buddhists describe the afterlife as full of traps, tolls, gates. And they remedy it by simply looking at all of it as illusion until there is only God left. Pretty interesting!!!!!

I'm sure we agree on many topics. I love Christ as my savior, teacher, best friend, and master ...that I profess. But I'm sure as many agreements that we have, there are prolly as many opposites here. Regardless, its a good and healthy ol' back n forth.

Originally posted by dominicus
That's the problem though, is that most Xtians wrapped around the canon are in a box and there is no way out of it. I was there too. When I first became a Christian I took it all in on faith and had a certain reference about how everything works.

Honestly, while I am spiritual, I do not follow organized religion. Organized religion, whether it be Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, whatever, is little more than brainwashing.

You are basically asked to accept what some priest, pastor or rabbi tells you without question. Unfortunately, all too many are too willing to do so. Without research, the truth is unattainable. You cannot get it from the mouth of some babbling preacher. That I have no doubt of.

reply to post by SpeakerofTruth

I laid out this whole thing that Dominicus brings up, in Sabbath school class, today, in a real concise sort of way. The lesson for the week was on Heaven and Hell, so it was on topic. I explained what the Dimeurge was and the problems involved in the Christian way of thinking, when it is contrasted with the fact that the "unsaved masses" may be just as well, or better connected with God.
They got real attentive and said there is a definite problem here, but they were a long way from having an answer. Or at least not one that would be useful on the internet. (love people to Jesus)
So I kind of go along with what you are saying, that you do not go to church for enlightenment but maybe to enlighten, oops, I mean question things, so others may start on a road to enlightenment.

Just as a sidenote: the guy in my class who got it, was, big surprise, from India.


[edit on 30-5-2009 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by dominicus
My telling my little story in an ambiguous way should not lead you to think there was anything ambiguous about my OBE.
It was pretty clear that no one in this place were there for the purpose of being experimented on, as in having to undergo a test.
The way I feel about it is that it would be kind of messed up if people were to just blink out of existence, here on this planet. If they are not meant to go on to another existence, it would seem the decent thing to do to at least revive them to let them know. Maybe that is just me, but that is how I interpret it. Of course I had already been indoctrinated into the belief in two resurrections. One for those going on and one for those who will not. So this experience did not teach me much more than I already knew, other than that it is real, and that I am just as much in jeopardy of it as anyone. That plus, it did not do anything to "save" anyone talking to them about it, at that (future) point.
I, much to my surprise, find myself alive and apparently in the same universe I was in before my experience. I feel myself obligated to do what it was too late to do in this other place, to tell people what is coming.
The world is not going to just keep going on and on like it has for so long. Let's say reincarnation is real, you are on your last round. The world as we know it is coming to its end.


[edit on 30-5-2009 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by dominicus


This is one of the most amazing thing I have noticed lately, thanks for bringing up this wonderfull topic
Any one who has read the bible would see this coming, the leaders or saviours as per the OT were kings who ruthlessly killed huge number of people on orders being given by their Lord God. Of course many people would see this as getting rid of evil but to be frank the encounters seem to be rather violent. Israel was always at war with its surrounding nations in the time periods of the OT and at times they killed each other. The number of people killed are given here www.abovetopsecret.com...
But jesus on the other hand does just the opposite, he heals people, raises people from the dead (Lazarus) and feeds them. If Jesus was following the abrahamic God, the jews would have made him king and we would have seen the defeat of the romans in the traditional Abrahamic heroic way but instead he condemns all the pharsies and teachers of jewish tradition (Of course it could be the fact that the teachings of Moses was wanning during that time) and the jews are always on his back trying to find fault with him and finally when pilate asked if he should be released the jews said they wanted a bandit instead and wanted him killed. So my point is this, Jesus was teaching a completely different type of religion much different from that of moses and the others. Jus because he was born in Nazareth does'nt mean he was following Abrahamic way of life. Mohammed clearly stated that he did not recognise jesus as anything and was a continuation of Moses.

reply to post by CuteAngel


Good post. Christianity is the end result of five hundred years of pagan domination of the Jews. You have to explain why your brash, confrontational god (who is so willing to show the fires of his wrath towards his own people) is suddenly silent when Marduk, Ahura Mazda, Zeus-Jupiter et al come kicking down the door and demanding that everyone worship their idols, and not some blank space where Yahweh used to be.

"Yeah, you have to suffer, and yeah, its going to be rubbish, but at the end, Yahweh will give you a spiritual cookie and pat you on the head!"

reply to post by The Last Man on Earth

That sounds interesting, but could you explain what it means.
The pagans oppressed the Jews? and what happened over the last 500 years? Was something done to Judaism, or do you mean Christianity is oppressive to the Jews, and are actually really worshiping Pagan gods, while pretending to worship Yahweh?
That part I can go with. The Vatican was built over the site of an ancient pagan holy place. The statue of Zeus was renamed to be Peter.
Any further elaboration of your thesis would be appreciated.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Pagans never oppressed the Jews, hell no! I guess you mis took the meaning of the word pagan, pagan means nature worship not idolatory or image worship. In ancient time people were not worshiping idols or images but worshiping nature. It was when they took to worshiping idols and images did their god leave them and they were devastated and the jews were victorious as they did not worship idols and images and revived the concept of 1 God. But the God depicted in the OT is very strict and kills off large number of people those who would deviate from the path even slightly.
The parables of Jesus and his teachings which talk about the kingdom of heaven being within the person are the ones which says that his teachings are very different from Abrahamic belief.
Here are the differences that I notice between Jesus teachings and Abrahamic teaching
* Jesus says the soul is within you and once you identify the soul you identify yourself with God, which expalins about the kingdom of heaven being within the person. Abrahamic teaching says man's life is insignificant in front of God and we should not hesitate to kill if required for God's sake.
* Jesus teaching is spiritualism which says worship God in the form of the spirit but Abrahamic teaching is to do with following certain rituals rigidly applied.
* Jesus says initially there was existence and existence continues as existence cannot come from non existence. Abrahamic God says that we need to believe that from Non Existence only existence came.
* The gift of God is eternal life through Jesus christ. Ecclesistes says that A live Dog is better than a dead Lion as once dead we cannot get back the life.
As you can see a a few major differences in concepts. It would be wise to read through the Gospel Of Judas....

reply to post by CuteAngel

Jesus teaching is spiritualism which says worship God in the form of the spirit but Abrahamic teaching is to do with following certain rituals rigidly applied.

Separation; that is what he was talking about. There was a separation by physical things, and then there was (coming) a separation by Spiritual discernment. (between good and evil)
Jesus was talking to the Samaritan woman at the well. The well was made by Abraham, so Jesus and her were related, both to Abraham. Her people worshiped at their mountain and the Jews worshiped on their mountain. Jesus said, "that is right, but the time is now coming when we will not be separated by such things when we all worship the same god in a spiritual way." (my paraphrased version)
There was to be a shift of consciousness that would lead to a unity where division ruled before. There is no time for foolish bickering because the time is coming when there will have to be a spiritual unity as the physical is quickly going to cease to exist.




[edit on 31-5-2009 by jmdewey60]