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F-35 competitors

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posted on Apr, 27 2004 @ 06:23 AM
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Indo-Russian joint venture

In June 2001, India was offered 'joint development and production' of a new 5th generation fighter by Russia.

Russia has been trying to sell this concept both to China and India for some time, but this time it was made directly to India's Defense Minister. The new fighter will 'counter' America's second 5th gen Joint Strike Fighter [JSF] which too is undergoing flight testing.

The plane we are talking about is Russia's Perspektivnyi Aviatsionnyi Kompleks Frontovoi Aviatsyi (PAK FA), which means 'Future Air Complex for Tactical Air Forces' : (Russian Name=Wierd Name). It is intended to be the same size as the US JSF but have a mission profile closer to the F-22 Raptor, with air superiority being the primary mission and ground attack and reconnaissance being secondary. Also similar to the JSF, the cost is expected to be about $30 million each. Even the deadlines assumed by the Russians are directly related to the date of entering JSF into the market.

Frozen out of most of the world's civil aircraft market, Russia retains an unquestioned presence only in fighters and helicopters, which means that developing a new generation of fighters is critical to the survival of the Russian aerospace industry, Russian officials say.

"The creation of the new-generation fighter is a matter of life or death for the Russian aircraft industry," said Evgniy Fedosov, chief of the State Scientific-Research Institute of Aviation Systems, called GosNIIAS.

The first deliveries, both for Russian armed forces and for export, would be possible in 2011-12.

The trick, however, will be finding the money to develop the fighter. The first source of funds, small and uncertain, is the Russia's Ministry of Defence budget. The second source, several times larger, is the export revenues of the companies participating in the programme. The third possible source is financing from other countries interested in buying the aircraft.

Several proposals exist for the PAK FA. Sukhoi, for example, modified it S-54 trainer project to come up with its S-55 LFI concept. Mikoyan & Gurevich [MiG] has showcased - the I-2000 - Interceptor-2000 (Istribityel-2000)




In November 2001, Russia's Deputy Prime Minister, Ilya Klebanov's announced that India and Russia had agreed to jointly develop a fifth-generation strike aircraft. This was the result of a four-day visit to Russia by India's Prime Minister. It was quoted by the RIA Novosti news agency as saying that the two sides were preparing a presentation of the new project in India in the first quarter of 2002. It would be the most ambitious and sophisticated defence project undertaken by the two countries so far. It seems that the agreement is currently only 'in principle' - not signed on the dotted line.

At the time of writing this piece, the PAK FA was yet to be named, which would be done only after Sukhoi presents their design to the Russian government. This process should be complete in 2003 only. It is a common misconception that Sukhoi's S-37 Berkut (Golden Eagle) is Russia's next fighter - it may or may not be, but should heavily influence it's design


Exclusive Indian Project - MCA

MCA is basically envisioned as a replacement for the British Jaguar and Mirage 2000 the IAF flies, which will be phased out by 2015.

The twin-engined Medium Combat Aircraft (MCA) is a stealthy Gen-5 combat aicraft optimised for strike missions. It will complement LCA and Su-30MKI as India's leading combat planes. If given the go-ahead, it should fly before 2010 and be inducted by 2015. Right now it is only a concept.

India is currently developing LCA, a light multirole attack plane. The only components common between MCA and LCA will be part of the wing, the Kaveri engine, and some systems and subsystems. MCA will be much heavier (12 ton dry weight).

The LCA has started flying in 2001 and should be inducted around 2008. MCA itself should make its first flight before 2010. It will face direct competition from China's J-12 , which should come out before 2015.

Propulsion:
The State owned Gas Turbine Research Establishment [GTRE] was to indigenously develop the Kaveri engine to power the LCA and MCA. But there have been major slippages in all the milestones. GE, SNECMA, and Klimov had all offered to provide the engines for this aircraft.

The Kaveri engines in the MCA will have a slightly higher dry thrust than in the LCA engine. These engines will also have thrust-vectoring nozzles. It is unknown which company will be providing this technology, or whether it will be developed in India itself. A supercruise capability is not being sought. The twin engined aircraft is planned to have a thrust ratio of 7:8:1.

Kaveri engine is a two-spool bypass turbofan engine having three stages of transonic low pressure compressor driven by a single-stage low pressure turbine. The core engine consists of six-stage transonic compressor driven by single-stage cooled high pressure turbine. The engine is provided with a compact annular combustor with airblast atomisers. The aerothermodynamic and mechanical designs of engine components have been evolved using many in-house and commercially developed software for solid and fluid mechanics.

Kaveri three-stage transonic fan, designed for good stall margin and bird strike capability, handles an air mass flow of 78 kg/s and develops a pressure Combustion Chamber Liner ratio of 3.4. The six-stage variable capacity transonic compressor of Kaveri develops a pressure ratio of 6.4. The variable schedule of inlet guide vanes and two rows of stator is through FADEC control system to open the stator blades in a predetermined manner. High intensity low UD ratio annular combustor of Kaveri engine incorporates air blast injection of fuel for uniform outlet temperature profile and reduced carbon emission.

Kaveri high pressure turbine is provided with an efficient cooling design incorporating augmented convection-cum-film cooling for the vanes and combination cooling for the rotor blade to handle up to 1700 K turbine entry temperature. Kabini engine comprising high pressure compressor, combustor and high pressure turbine has undergone high altitude test at facilities abroad successfully demonstrating the flat rating concept of Kaveri engine assembly and in particular the combustor high altitude ignition and stability performances.

Kaveri engine has been specifically designed for Indian environment. The engine is a variable cycle-flat-rated engine in which the thrust drop due to high ambient, forward speed is well compensated by the increased turbine entry temperature at the spool Kabini altitude test speed. This concept has been already demonstrated with high temperature and pressure condition in DRDO's High Mach Facility. Kaveri engine is controlled by Kaveri full authority digital control unit [KADECU), which has been developed and successfully demonstrated at DRDO's test bed.

STEALTH:
Stealthiness will be a priority and hence the MCA will have two small, outward-canted fins and the external fuel tanks will be mounted above the wings. Absence of a vertical fin improves stealth. However, not all weapons will be internal and hence will compromize the stealth.

The MCA will use India's own radar-absorbent material to reduce radar cross-section.

If all progresses according to plan, MCA will become first military fighter that has no tail - at all. USA is the only country to have seriously pursued such aircraft(X-36, F-16X).

Tail-less design has been seen in Flying Wings, but these represent a separate class of aeroplanes. To realize the MCA, India will have to develop cutting edge technology. US help in this area is obviously expected.

The MCA :



The Chinese Project

China's Jian-12 or J-12 (F-12 for foreign markets) is 5th generation multirole jet due to fly by 2012 and enter service by 2015. It has been codenamed XXJ by US's Office of Naval Intelligence (ONI). J-12 is destined to be China's top-end fighter along with the Su-30MKK when it will be introduced.

Not much is known about J-12 right now - the aircraft is still going through initial work. The project is at is where the USAF ATF (Advanced Tactical Fighter) Program, which lead to the F-22A, was in ~1983. Virtually everything is still wide open. Sources within combat aircraft manufacturer Chengdu confirm that it is looking at a twin-engined design and that they are examining both single and two crew configuration.

China has developed close ties with Russia's aerospace industry and has license produced many fighters including MiG-21 and Su-27. Their FC-1/Super 7 design is based on MiG-33 (which was rejected by Soviet Air Force). Earlier Chinese planes are the Q-5 Fantan, J-8 Finback and FBC-1. The FBC-1 was their latest attempt, and was'nt successful - the Su-27 filled in for it. Considering their track record, it may well be possible that the J-12 ends up being a re-christened MiG MFI. MAPO-MIG is already involved in the J-10 program. MFI is one of the world's 5th generation designs. However, considering the project's timeframe, it seems unlikely (they would'nt need 15 years to do this).

Stealthiness is an integral part of all new fighter designs and J-12 is no exception. The engines are most likely to be Russian with Thrust Vectoring. Stealth and thrust vectoring are two features that are a must in all aircraft being designed today. Interestingly, Chinese aircraft designers will actually perform a 'generation leap' if J-12 goes into service with PLAAF. All aircraft produced in China before (apart from licenced Su-27) have been 3rd generation aircraft. Chengdu will have to take Western/Israeli/Russian help to make J-12 truly 5th generation.

The J-12:


J-12's immediate rival will be India's MCA (Medium Combat Aircraft). It too is expected to be a 5th generation aircraft. While the fate of MCA is not clear, J-12 is probably under active development.




Note: The J-12 designation was previously applied to an aircraft built at Nanchang in the late 1970s, with only one or two airframes being constructed prior to the program's cancellation.

Boeing Factor
It is apparent the boeing is dissapointed that its X-32 concept lost to the X-35 .

Boeing may want to avenge this loss and may also play a role in the Indian venture.This cannot be confirmed but it is just my feeling, considering healthy Indo-US ties.

Sources :
drdo.org: Defence Research and Development Organisation
ada.gov.in: Aeronautical Development Authority
cmmacs.ernet.in/nal/: National Aerospace Authority
hal-india.com: Hindustan Aeronautics Limited
geocities.com/spacetransport/aircraft-mca.html
geocities.com/spacetransport/aircraft-xxj.html




posted on Apr, 27 2004 @ 06:34 AM
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Your Pics arent working
also, only select countries will be getting the JSF because of its LO capacities, so if a country is approved they will surrely jump on the opportunity



posted on Apr, 27 2004 @ 06:46 AM
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www.geocities.com...


www.geocities.com...


www.geocities.com...

These are links to the pics

PS: I think i am being over optimistic with the boeing bit



posted on Apr, 27 2004 @ 06:49 AM
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Accually, Boeing will provide major support for the f-35 so i doubt that they will avenge it. The f-35 might even incorporate some technologies from the x-32 like the f-22 did with the yf-23



posted on Apr, 27 2004 @ 06:56 AM
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i agree.

but what did the f-22 get from the f-23 ??



posted on Apr, 27 2004 @ 07:12 AM
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Northrop-Gruman used the avionics development plane used or the f-23 for components of the f-22, and id you look at the f-22 now you see it uses the organic shaping that the f-23 did.



posted on Apr, 27 2004 @ 07:15 AM
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Each and everyone of these aircraft that you have mentioned as competition to the F-35, for which I have no clue as to why you didn't throw the Raptor into the mix, have been extensively discussed within this forum and the Weaponry forum.

ATS's search feature is your friend and if it isn't, take the time to review the pages of archives manually. Won't take but a few minutes of your time.




seekerof

[Edited on 27-4-2004 by Seekerof]



posted on Apr, 27 2004 @ 07:34 AM
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The JSF does not compete with the raptor, it complements it. The raptor shoots down aircraft while the jsf punds ground targets. Also, only the us will buy raptos, the stealth used in the raptor will not be allowed to be exported under the lo office rules, but the jsf will.



posted on Apr, 27 2004 @ 07:44 AM
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Most of those are not really compition. We know who is going to buy the F-35.



posted on Apr, 27 2004 @ 07:58 AM
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The US is NEVER going to sell the F-35 to Russia, China, (dunno about India) or atleast thats what i think.

Russia and China being natural adverseries of the US do need a competitor to the JSF.

Just because a few countries are gonna buy the JSF, dose'nt mean that these are not competition.

(actually the JSF will be obselete when the J-12 , MCA enter production
:lol



posted on Apr, 27 2004 @ 05:15 PM
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Wrong Stealth Spy, the JSF will be more advanced then the F-22. If the F-22 tried to shoot it down, the JSF has a laser which can burn a hole into the missle and destroy it. So before you talk and make stupid comments, think.



posted on Apr, 27 2004 @ 05:44 PM
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Originally posted by Laxpla
Wrong Stealth Spy, the JSF will be more advanced then the F-22. If the F-22 tried to shoot it down, the JSF has a laser which can burn a hole into the missle and destroy it. So before you talk and make stupid comments, think.


Sorry, but the F/A-22 will be the more advanced aircraft. Hence the difference in price. The JSF will get a laser (assuming it works correctly) but what make you think that the Raptor won't?

Also, the JSF may not be able to shoot the missle down. The way the Raptor works, if it uses it's AMRAAM the JSF may not even know it is being shot at 'till it is too late


One on one (assuming equal pilots) the raptor wins every time.



posted on Apr, 27 2004 @ 09:26 PM
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I know, I was just proving a concept. The F-22 one one one would be able to knock out a JSF mostly because the F-22 is made for air. But what I meanly ment was the JSF is proposed with a laser, if that works, it could knock out the missles that it "sees", thats what i never knew the raptor had. Missles like that. Thanks for the information! USA is the soul of superpowers!

[Edited on 27-4-2004 by Laxpla]



posted on Apr, 27 2004 @ 09:35 PM
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Originally posted by Laxpla
I know, I was just proving a concept. The F-22 one one one would be able to knock out a JSF mostly because the F-22 is made for air. But what I meanly ment was the JSF is proposed with a laser, if that works, it could knock out the missles that it "sees", thats what i never knew the raptor had. Missles like that. Thanks for the information! USA is the soul of superpowers!

[Edited on 27-4-2004 by Laxpla]


YES WE ARE!


I see your point though.... It's funny, we are actually seriously talking about lasers being fielded in combat within the next 10 years. It kind of shows just how advanced the USAF is compared with the rest of the world.



posted on Apr, 27 2004 @ 09:52 PM
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Yes, I was just watching on Discovery Times channel a program about the power of the white house, and its amazing what they could do, and what stradgies they took.

Even though, the laser things would make America super super power, 300 ABL in the air, and its over for the enemy's air.



posted on Apr, 27 2004 @ 11:14 PM
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Originally posted by Stealth Spy
The US is NEVER going to sell the F-35 to Russia, China, (dunno about India) or atleast thats what i think.

Russia and China being natural adverseries of the US do need a competitor to the JSF.

Just because a few countries are gonna buy the JSF, dose'nt mean that these are not competition.

(actually the JSF will be obselete when the J-12 , MCA enter production
:lol


Get a clue man. Read up. The F-35 is one of the most advanced aircraft in the world. Others countries are still far away. It will have systems and electronics. I suggest you do research before you post.



posted on Apr, 27 2004 @ 11:32 PM
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oops ........ sorry .........






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posted on Apr, 27 2004 @ 11:42 PM
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Originally posted by Stealth Spy
oops ........ sorry .........






-


HAHAHAHA - you are just getting no love on this thread are you


I'd say that the JSF will be the best combination of tech and price in the world when it comes out. However, I'd also say there will be more advanced planes out as well (Raptor and Mig 1.42 and/or Su-47? come to mind)



posted on Apr, 27 2004 @ 11:46 PM
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Assembly of the fifth generation fighter prototype ((EHKSPERIMENTALNYY OBRAZETS)) will begin soon in Russia, the Sukhoy company, where this combat airplane is being developed, has reported. An artificial intelligence system will be installed in it which improves the pilots awareness of the situation and aids him in the process of decision making. The airmen is not able to make an incorrect decision - the system will cut him off from control and indicate the error. The Russian super airplane will have supersonic speed, low detectability, ultra-maneuverability, and the capability to make a short takeoff and landing.

Source: 27.04.04, Golos Rossii



posted on Apr, 29 2004 @ 06:16 AM
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I doubt the Russians have the kind of money necessary to develop such a plane.



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