The chicken or the egg? My thoughts...

reply to post by badmedia


I think my head is going to explode.

I gotta read your posts another few times to get it, but so far I like what I see...

Many thanks for contributing to this thread, Badmedia, and of course everyone else...

A hologram, huh?... That's some deep stuff...

This whole subject is deep. I can feel the smoke coming out of my ears!

Well, back to reading! (pop)

Here is some more. This is a video from the guy who did the introduction to sacred geometry video. Long and some might find it boring, but I like this kind of stuff.

Google Video Link

Also, here are some posts that talk about things in another way. The nature of time, how dimensions build and so forth. They are in a thread about the similarities in faith and quantum physics.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Not to put words in your mouth, but this "god" you're talking about isn't the Abrahamic God from the Old Testament of the bible, is it - or any other God or gods from a religion?
I believe you are talking about just pure conciousness - genderless and non judgemental?

Edit to add: I love Jesus and his messages, but I just think he was ET or rather 1/2 ET...

I hope we aren't about to clash, but it's all in goodness.

[edit on 5/8/2009 by impaired]

Originally posted by impaired

Originally posted by azurecara
Specifically: I will be living this life at some stage over and over and over again - right?

Perhaps over and over again, but just with a differect reaction to every action - for infinity...
Perhaps all of us will and that's what makes infinity infinity, or part of it...
???

Are you referring to the idea of the multi-universe? Or that for every choice we make there is another dimension or universe where the opposite choice is also experienced? As this idea I can understand. I can Even entertain a spiral idea to some extent. But a circle to me implies that everything will be repeated exactly the same as before.

For example: I shall be endlessly typing into this computer these exact words in infinite moments ceaselessly. Every thought, word, action, deed, every single moment shall be repeated again.

For if were to entertain that idea completely, I would lose the point to life. If all choices only lead to repetition, than what point would there be to make choices? All would be an utter illusion.

Perhaps the journey from a given point, and working towards a destination is only an illusion. Perhaps the point would be to attempt to figure out the point, and as there is no true destination, the only thing remaining would be the journey. Therefore: there is no end, and no beginning. All exists within the moment.

I am enjoying this thread as I have wondered this all myself!
Thanks for your posts! Badmedia, I think you summed up our existence
pretty well with your posts!
I just wanted to say it sounded like a cool video game and then you
made a reference to that also! Great stuff! Thank you.
(There's a new game idea for someone!)
Impaired, you sound like you are angry(about life), possibly at God.
Sorry just a personal observation. God IS the energy you spoke of.
An "omnipresent" force is required to complete your circle theory.
God is only what our feeble minds can understand him to be, basically.
Thanks again and I'll stop there before I start to ramble!
Kewl thread! WTG!
Azurecara, you are on to something there.
It is the learning on the journey to completeness, that is what life's about!



[edit on 9-5-2009 by dodadoom]

reply to post by dodadoom


This is something I can't quite wrap my head around though. My journey to completeness shall forever remain unreached. That is my stumbling block. I shall never be complete, or anything other than what I am in this moment, because it shall all repeat. The destination and origin are the same.

Which is odd. To accept that even though you have perceived yourself to have changed, that perhaps you have never changed, and are as you always have been. (my mind remains boggled).

reply to post by azurecara

I agree, it does seem that way. I would have to surmize our mortal
minds can only conceive of our reality in its present form.
(I think it has to do with only using 10% of our brains)
It may seem like we do not progress, and indeed many never do.
I liken it to learning a musical instrument. You dont think you are
ever getting much better,(just learning more songs!)
It just all becomes more comfortable and easier and fun. Then you play more shows. Then more people give you compliments and you realize its
all in our perception of the reality we allow ourselves to be locked into, to use this analogy.
When I was a kid I used to think God put us here to help others and learn about the bad side(and how to avoid it), or wrong way(so then we can know and appreciate the right way), because we are all born innocent and inherently good. Thanks for the reply! Its cool to speculate!

Just by thinking about this and letting it rattle around upstairs for awhile,
you(we)are progressing! IMO. You(we) are adding to collective knowledge and in turn it will come back to you(us)!


[edit on 9-5-2009 by dodadoom]

Well I must say you're on exactly the right track... to greater understanding. Birth did not precede life, birth is life. This universe is forever giving birth to higher forms. The original was egg and life in one, we call it god.

Originally posted by azurecara

Are you referring to the idea of the multi-universe? Or that for every choice we make there is another dimension or universe where the opposite choice is also experienced? As this idea I can understand. I can Even entertain a spiral idea to some extent. But a circle to me implies that everything will be repeated exactly the same as before.

For example: I shall be endlessly typing into this computer these exact words in infinite moments ceaselessly. Every thought, word, action, deed, every single moment shall be repeated again.

For if were to entertain that idea completely, I would lose the point to life. If all choices only lead to repetition, than what point would there be to make choices? All would be an utter illusion.

Perhaps the journey from a given point, and working towards a destination is only an illusion. Perhaps the point would be to attempt to figure out the point, and as there is no true destination, the only thing remaining would be the journey. Therefore: there is no end, and no beginning. All exists within the moment.

Yeah, sorry to say, but that's what I believe I am inferring...
Pretty sick stuff, huh?

Originally posted by dodadoom
Impaired, you sound like you are angry(about life), possibly at God.
Sorry just a personal observation. God IS the energy you spoke of.
An "omnipresent" force is required to complete your circle theory.
God is only what our feeble minds can understand him to be, basically.
Thanks again and I'll stop there before I start to ramble!

[edit on 9-5-2009 by dodadoom]

Right on the money, my friend, but that is another subject.

It's not that I am angry at God or the creator. Actually, I don't know who or what exactly I have the gripe towards...
It's the overall unfairness that some of us (hell, all of us to an extent) have to deal with in life.
Suffering is so prominent and prolific, yet it basically means nothing because there IS so much of it.
For me, it all stems from that. But I do admit that I am still young and dumb, so I have much to learn...
Sorry to go there, but you are very observant.

[edit on 5/9/2009 by impaired]

Originally posted by impaired
Not to put words in your mouth, but this "god" you're talking about isn't the Abrahamic God from the Old Testament of the bible, is it - or any other God or gods from a religion?
I believe you are talking about just pure conciousness - genderless and non judgemental?

Edit to add: I love Jesus and his messages, but I just think he was ET or rather 1/2 ET...

I hope we aren't about to clash, but it's all in goodness.

Confrontation brings about understanding. Nothing I say should be accepted as fact. For anyone knows, I could just be a great BS'r and feeding you full of crap. If what I say makes sense and is understandable, then great. But I'd rather someone disagreed with me, rather than them accepting what I say is true.

I don't belong to any religion, and I'm not promoting any religion. I think organized religion is in itself a bad thing. It teaches and tells people what to accept, rather than how to understand things.

But in reference to god, I see the abrahamic version of god in the OT to be a mixed bag. Some things I think are of the father, and other things I'm not so sure about. Nothing I say or have gained is from the bible, I seen what I learned in the bible after I learned it.

So this is a rather tricky question. The way I understand the bible is not like the way organized religion see's it. Jesus for example does and says things that I learned for myself. And when Jesus says the father is within him, that I know to be true. Because I recognize the father I know in his words. Jesus is an example of what I was taught to do.

The bible describes events I've experienced for myself as well, and in ways other men have no clue about in general. When I experienced these things, I hated religion even more than I do now. So I was lets just say shocked when I read some of the things I experienced and know in the bible.

But yet, I think christianity as a religion is an "anti-christ" religion. Does many bad things and distorts/manipulates the truth. And oddly enough, Jesus even warns of them.

The way the father(god) taught/teaches me is in understanding. Not in direct words. So like when it comes to Jesus. I was never told - go follow and worship Jesus. In fact, I was shown that people like Jesus are just messengers/tools used to relay a message and understanding. And that it is that message and understanding that is important, not the idol/messenger that brings it. So while I wasn't taught - go follow Jesus. I was taught the path and such for myself. It wasn't until after I learned and understood that I recognized Jesus was talking about these things as well.

But at the same time, I completely reject Paul and half the NT. Where as Jesus shows understanding and is an example of what I was shown to do, Paul is the opposite of that. He does all that I am told not to do.

I am just given the understanding of things, and then I have to try and come up with words to describe them in order to communicate with others. And I find that the bible helps me in doing that. But I see those understandings expressed in many places, and in other religions as well.

So as I understand it, it's generally like this - the times, people, places and cultures may change, but the basic understanding stays the same. Those who focus on the idols rather than the understanding and message they give are those who are blind. They missed the point. Everything Jesus says of himself is true of you, it's just a matter of coming to the understanding.

To worship the idol rather than the message and understanding they bring is like someone bringing you a glass of milk, and rather than drinking the milk you just sit around licking and praising the glass that brought the milk, rather than actually drinking it. And society and such actually kind of forbids the drinking of the milk. For example, Christians speak of a personal relationship with god, but they surely don't allow for it. Apparently to them, a personal relationship with god means he reads the bible to you.

And the reason "they" as in those with power push the idol and such, is to turn Jesus into being everything you are not. And they push him off as being god, and you are not so that one day someone can take his place of being the only god on earth. Only possible among people who do not realize their true self.

Gender isn't important. I refer to god as a he, but that is because I am a he. If someone refers to god as a she, that is quite alright with me. Neither is technically right or wrong.

And the Abraham god is pure consciousness. The true verses about god anyway. For example, when he is called "I AM", that is a reference to being consciousness. And many other references which show him as being consciousness. But he is "literalized" in order to bring understanding. But those without understanding just take it literal, as if he is some man in the clouds.

I believe that where you find wisdom and understanding, that is a sign of the father. Where ever that may be. No religion has a monopoly on the father etc. They may express the understandings different, and personify them in different ways, but the understanding is universal. So when I see a movie like zeitgeist and they start going on about all these others that are alike, I see that as meaning - the truth never changes, but the idols and such change to meet the culture.

So it's a rather loaded question. Yes and no. Yes I understand the abrahamic god and agree a good bit with some of it. And that which I agree with, I agree with on a very deep level. But no I'm not someone who just accepts it as true because the bible says so.

But I am NOT any kind of authority and nothing I say should be taken as fact. There is simply no replacement for a personal relationship with the father. That I can not give you.

Here's an example of what I find so true on a deep level in the OT.

www.biblegateway.com...

8All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.

9They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.

10Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold.

11For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it.

Religions and such teach a god that is separate from us. That is not true, you are him. Here's the verse that first got my interest in the bible after learning.

John 14
20At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

As I said before, I am just given understanding. The first thing I said after my vision which started everything was - I am god, and I am arguing with myself. Meaning, all are god, and god is within us all. And when I came to that understanding, I was like - nobody knows!!!! because I never heard anyone say such a thing EVER. And then I come across that bible verse and it's like WOW, that is exactly right! And so now I just quote Jesus to say it, because it sounds a bit better. Most people never got past the "I am god" part to understand what I was saying when I put the understanding in my own words.

But I'm not a big fan of leviticus and such. Back in those days kings and rulers were often called gods, so it's hard to say what parts of the bible are truly about god, and which of them are from things which rulers claimed and forced people to be treated as god. If it disagrees with the understanding I've gotten, then I reject it or put it aside as not understood. If the texts bring no understanding that applies to todays world, then they are useless for that person at the time(but may make sense later).

Everyone should have their own vision. Rather than accepting what people who claim to be authorities say. And again I'm going to quote the bible to show why I stick to it, as it also says exactly this.

www.biblegateway.com...

2How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.

3Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.

4Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.

5They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.

6I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

Notice, it says how long will you accept. And then goes on to talk about how those who accept do not understand. The point is not to accept because the bible or religion says so, but to understand.

And that is universal.

Buddha said -- Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.

Everyone should have their own vision, rather than accepting someone elses.

Here's another example. They say the "holy spirit" speaks in "tongues". And then you see people who run around all crazy, speaking in some intelligible language and claim they have the holy spirit. And then they claim it to be the language of angels.

This is laughable to me. Completely laughable. The holy spirit speaking in tongues means it is able to speak in people in a way they understand. Otherwise, it would be like trying to speak to someone in Germany in English, they won't understand. Doesn't have a thing to do with running around all crazy like speaking in some foreign language.

Are we to really believe that god only cares about a few select portion of the population? That only those who were "lucky" enough to see a bible can be saved. No, that kind of talk is ridiculous, and is purely marketing ploys. Kind of like Paul and his "free gift" line. Marketing 101.

What it means is that the holy spirit will speak to all those who seek, and it will be done in a way that is understandable to that person. Because again, it is only the understandings themselves that actually matter, not about worshiping a certain idol or religion.

If anyone ever tries to treat christianity as somekind of monopoly on the truth, and the only ones that can be "saved", then quote this verse to them.

24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

25These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Says plain as day otherwise. If you don't hear Jesus, you can still hear the father, and the holy spirit which will teach you all things.

Oh, and the bible has "codes" of sorts in it. I'm not talking about bible codes, but it works like algebra equations. Jesus says he is the "truth, the light and the way". What that means is those things are what Jesus is symbolic of. So like when it says nobody can come to the father except through me, he is referring not to his idol, not to him personally, but that only by the truth, the light and the way can one come to the father. Big difference and makes much more sense when understood properly.

Of all the religous people, I generaly agree with the gnostics the most. They understand these things. They have other texts and such i'm not familiar with, and I don't know all their codes. But like you might hear mention of "sophia", that is a code for knowledge.

And if you have ever heard of "alchemist". That had nothing to do with turning physical lead into gold. It was talking about spiritual things. But these things had to be put into code because if they were open and direct, then they were destroyed. Only the texts that aren't so obvious and direct have been able to survive this long.

My best advice to you - don't accept what people say about the bible and religions etc. Don't let the idol worshipers or anyone else define these things for you. Come to your own understanding, as there is no replacement for it. If I had to let Christians and such define the bible for me, I'd throw it out in a heartbeat. But I don't accept or allow others to define these things for me.

I have to weigh in on this one - I'm not sure how old, or young, any of you are but...... I'm old enough to have been around to witness the drastic changes that this world has went through in say, the last 30 or so years.

I was watching something just last night about how kids today are being taught, via school propaganda, to "question" things such as creation, and God. No big deal you say? It has made a huge impact on society in the last few decades. The difference in society today, as opposed to society of 30 years ago is jaw dropping. More people, yeah, means more crime, less morals, etc. But it's been more than that -

Growing up we had the state fed/laws and we had God's laws. Some things needed to be changed, granted, but society has gone way overboard in the changes that have been brought about.

A documentary I saw explained it best - it was talking about the major events that began this country's moral decline.

Those things were: Abortion, homosexuality, the removal of prayer in schools/etc., electing officials into office that were pro anything that didn't include God, or the Bible, adultery (does anyone remain celibate until after marriage now?), widespread pornography via the internet, the ACLU, etc........

I read the comments, like on this thread, about how 'mankind' might have started this way, or that way, or others that just choose to worship other "gods" instead of God. And the first thing that comes to my mind is, this is the product of what our moral decline has resulted in.

God, nor the Bible, are "religion". Satan has brainwashed mankind into hating God, and His Bible, convincing people that God, the Bible, and "religion" are all in the same. They are not.

Just an fyi, mankind created 'religion', not God. As usual, mankind has screwed up yet another thing on this planet. An added note, this is exactly what satan wanted - to sway as many people as he can away from God before he is tossed into hell.

And to answer the thread question, the chicken came first, since God created animals first, before He created us even.

reply to post by impaired

Thanks for the reply bro! I am glad you took it only as I meant it!
It is hard to understand the hate and savageness in the world sometimes.
We made a decision to go our own way seperate from God a long time ago.
Therefore, now we pay the price by being deceived, hurtful and angry.
The devil only has a short time left to do his work, he's trying very hard!

I see this too nomorecruelty.(dig the name btw)
I think alot of the moral decline has to do with violent tv, movies & video games the past 30 years also.
During the 80's it was all about me, me , me. We didnt need God anymore. (Unless we we're about to die) It hasn't changed much.
So we have two for the chicken and two for the egg now? Right?
Now I'm even worse confused............. Great posts guys!
Thank you!


[edit on 9-5-2009 by dodadoom]

reply to post by impaired


Not sick maybe, but more than passing strange to me that we both arrive at a circle as a conclusion. A little scary, and a alot of "Uh!! Again? All over again? I have to unknowingly repeat all the actions and thoughts of this lifetime? That is just a total drag.

I just want to sit down with whatever/whoever may be responsible for setting up the merry-go-ride and say, "You've got some 'splaining to do Mister!"

What if, now hear me out - am trying to find reason and logic; it's a fallacy. What if the circle was repeated infinitely for one soul - or one god/being/thing, right? So in every circle or loop, the entity experienced the narrow moment of one perspective, but was all things at all times in the circle. Imgaine the universe we are in as a video game (useful analogy), you are the creator of the game, and every time you play the game through you are experiencing a different element of the game. You live your life as a tree, as a plant, as every person you meet, and every animal and thing. Thus the endless cycle of repetition serves a purpose.

Because at the same time as existing in that circle, you also exist elsewhere. This is because all moments are one and inclusive of all states. So by experiencing something, you are endlessly experiencing it, and endlessly not experiencing it; in the same lineal moment.

How many people did I lose?

Originally posted by impaired
I think the shape of a circle is probably the most significant shape/thing that could possibly exist... Interesting...

Yes, interesting...but what about a sphere?

An infinately small sphere is the first single point (1D) A line is the next that suggests direction (2D/X&Y) and gives rise to more than a single dimension. 3D is the next progression in dimensions (Z) and time is the fourth.

Circles are quite cool though and maybe there's a link to time there somewhere. Sphere's are maybe the key......so maybe a slightly squashed sphere (egg) came before a chicken.

I love it when my head hurts.

Originally posted by nerbot

Originally posted by impaired
I think the shape of a circle is probably the most significant shape/thing that could possibly exist... Interesting...

Yes, interesting...but what about a sphere?

An infinately small sphere is the first single point (1D) A line is the next that suggests direction (2D/X&Y) and gives rise to more than a single dimension. 3D is the next progression in dimensions (Z) and time is the fourth.

Circles are quite cool though and maybe there's a link to time there somewhere. Sphere's are maybe the key......so maybe a slightly squashed sphere (egg) came before a chicken.

I love it when my head hurts.

I like the idea of a sphere better, but the 3d-ness of the sphere is from all of those "washers" on the 2 dimensional circle connecting to make sphere, so yeah...

Yeah, this is the kind of stuff that I don't think us humans in the 3rd denisity should be talking about. Our brains just might melt!

i had to Flag your OP, because i was just about to start a thread just like this, except with my views on the subject, and how i think very similarly, except with the concept of fractals instead of circles...

i posted this a while back:

Originally posted by adrenochrome
the whole "theory" of reality as a fractal was something i was thinking of on my own the other day... you know, it totally makes sense, to think that there was never a "Big Bang", but instead that reality and the multiverse have ALWAYS existed, because if a Divine Creator exists (and it does), what was he doing before the "Big Bang" in nothingness?

when you learn that time really does NOT exist, and that man only uses it as a reference to help him along the way, then you'll understand that there's only Now, and Now's in a constant state of change, and it is infinite, and always has been, and has existed because it's a gigantic fractal! even before middle-school, i've wondered if there was another universe inside each and every nucleus of an atom... and we're just inside our own universe that's in another nucleus - the fractal theory totally makes perfect sense!!

it's too bad man has to constantly borrow from the past, and borrow from the future, to feel anything in the Now - appreciate Now for what it truly is, and you'll eternally be happy, because all reality is, is just an infinite eternity, and it always has been!!

www.abovetopsecret.com...

seriously, what was the Divine Creator doing before the Big Bang? if time is only a reference point for us lowly humans, then what is time to God?? ...if time doesn't exist for us, then SURELY it doesn't exist at all for God!

my point is, is that God just wasn't "sitting around" waiting for the right time to start Creation... why? because Creation has ALWAYS been here!

...it just HAS BEEN!

i used to think that the chicken came first, because who's going to sit on the egg to incubate it?? well, nothing just pops into existence out of thin air, unless it came from somewhere else, and therefore has already existed. so, the chicken and the egg must have ALWAYS existed because this reality has just forever been here. everything's changing, all the time, even humanity, and we're all constantly evolving because you can't fight change - Creation never popped into existence because reality has always been here, and it forever will be!




anyway, check this out, too:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

...i hope i made sense!!

[edit on 20-6-2009 by adrenochrome]