The chicken or the egg? My thoughts...

I've been thinking (alot) lately about what could have created Creation. I am totally aware that this is probably a fruitless endeavor, but whatever... I wanna hear what you guys have to say aout this. May I?

What if creation is here, was here, and always will be here?
That nothing COULD come before creation, because it was always here - even in pre-infinity (is that even a word or a theory?).
- And that it all goes in circles (for some reason, the shape of a circle always flashes in my mind when I ask myself this question).
Not just a O circle, but imagine turning the circle clockwise and counterclockwise - and that the smallest space(s) possible contains more circles? All flush up against one another? Here is my example:
Imagine a key-ring with enough washers attached to form a complete circle all the way around - so that they are all touching. But imagine that the washers are thinner than sub-atomic particles, but the key-ring is as big as a planet (Whoo)! And... That each washer on the key-ring is a Creation, or a Universe, or hell, even a Multiverse!
Well, I guess I am talking infinity, huh?
Perhaps Creation is (obviously) just infinity (and pre-infinity).. It never started, and it will never end. It's absolute logic. And maybe, just maybe THIS infinite thing - this "circle" I was was talking about, is in a sea of other circles that are on top, on the bottom, and on the left and the right? Kinda like:

OOO
OOO
OOO

(Lets say the middle one is our universe)

How about circles even behind and in front? Turn that model clockwise and counterclockwise and insert more into the space in-between space. Perhaps all for eternity (infinity) as well? So that they are all intertwined. It goes with the theory that we are all one, and one is all us, or we are all Creation, and Creation is us.

I think the shape of a circle is probably the most significant shape/thing that could possibly exist... Interesting...
This all (could) go hand in hand with infinite/different timelines, alternate dimensions, and all that stuff...
I hope I made some sort of sense. Felt good to get that out!

Edit to fix/change topic.


[edit on 5/8/2009 by impaired]

Originally posted by impaired

It's absolute logic.

I think the shape of a circle is probably the most significant shape/thing that could possibly exist...

Interesting thread.

Can you elaborate on these two statements?

I've had a few thoughts about creation, the hows, whys and wherefores.

I used to wonder why anything at all existed. Then I thought the alternative to that is that nothing would exist.

So - something or nothing? And it occurred to me that something had as much chance of existing as nothing did.

So why not something? And here we all are.

As to other dimensions overlapping our own - I tend to believe in them. I just think there may be a limit to how much a human being can understand about the workings of the universe. The fun part is to try and push to the edges of that limit.

At soul level, I am sure we are more than capable of understanding the way of things, but while we are in physical bodies we are blinkered.

Without the blinkers, I don't know if we could function in the 'real' physical world.

To borrow an old analogy, when you go deep sea diving you need to be in a diving suit.

It gets you to the bottom of the ocean, but restricts your movement and perception. The same could be said of the human body in relation to the soul.

Originally posted by breakingdradles

Originally posted by impaired

It's absolute logic.

I think the shape of a circle is probably the most significant shape/thing that could possibly exist...

Interesting thread.

Can you elaborate on these two statements?

My bad, I think that due to the way I explained the absolute logic statement, it could get misinterperated.

I was inferring that Creation IS absolute logic, as an intrinsic and inherent quality. Since it is infinity (at every angle), it knows the answer and it IS the answer (to everything). All is one...

And as far as the circle thing, I just see a circle as a line that comes together and repeats (given there is energy to keep the circuit going, which is a different subject, I guess...).
But since the circle connects from opposite directions, it still comes from itself TO itself, or the same point.

I hope that makes sense. It's a tricky one to explain for me...

reply to post by berenike


Maybe nothing IS something, and something IS nothing? Maybe they are all one in the same. Infinity and Pre-infinity.

Maybe the word Pre-Infinity is misleading...
What I mean is the polar opposite on infinity.
Instead of never ending, flip that upside-down or backwards, and what do you get?
I tried looking it up (Pre-infinity, Backwards-infinity, Reverse Infinity), but there is nothing... Any ideas? This concept sounds more interesting all of a sudden for me.

reply to post by impaired


Both , together as one at the same time.

reply to post by Mr Green


Yes, Mr Green! This is all relative with what I think and believe! Muchos Gracias!

+ and - , polar opposites working against eachother but for one another together. Where there's up there's down, etc. etc...

How about this, dude. Imagine a universe where there are 3 poles? or 4?
Positive, Negative and ________. I can't even begin to wonder.

Thanks for the vid!

What if creation is here, was here, and always will be here?
That nothing COULD come before creation, because it was always here - even in pre-infinity (is that even a word or a theory?).

This could be true,as well as creation existing before or both ideas at the same time,this can be solved if a practical experiment were conducted,but my thoughts are if creation existed here and now then how would you explain memory or say if you planted a seed today and it was a plant the next day.

Otherwise from what i gauge from evolutionary theory,is that the chicken came first as all organisms evolved from another than from an egg besides don't eggs need to be incubated?

Originally posted by impaired


Thanks for the vid!

It was brought to my attention today by another member and as I watched it, for me it gave many answers to my many questions. I saw your thread and just thought I have to post this as it does give an answer to your OP. We all know its an endless question which came first, and this theory shows us a way of answering it.

It also gives clues to the duality of the Universe and how its aim is to finally become one again. We are all one, we are not just male or female, we are both and until all is united again the Universe will strive to achieve unity once more.

This model for me is what Id thought for a while. Ive often posted the creator (the one light) split itself into many millions of lights but these lights were still of the one. These millions of lights are us, they are souls, but they are souls of the one. We are all one and will be one again.

Im glad you liked it and hope you find some wisdom in it. Its maybe not everyones cup of tea but for me it gives answers. It gives answers to why I feel I am not whole, why I constantly strive to unite with my creator and why my spirit feels it now wants to go home.

reply to post by impaired


Maybe at some level of existence the difference between something and nothing, means nothing.

I am not sure I understand what you mean.

but I interpret it as it could be possible that life started indeed as circle (cell) with only the DNA to reproduce and adapt to the environment.

could be possible.

I have done a lot of thinking about this matter as well.

And i wonder:
Can we have anything without pressure. Can the circle you wonder about exist without pressure?

I wonder where the pressure that makes up everything comes from. You can't have as much as a energy charge without a pressure differential.

reply to post by spy66


Well, I would say that Positive and Negative have something to do with this.
Creation being everything AND nothing, but governed by two very fundamntal laws: + and -, good and bad, up and down, light and dark - I could go on forever. The amount of synonyms that can be derived from this thought is just mindboggling in itself.

My 2 cents in regards to what you mentioned about pressure is this.
Pressure - whether it is atmospheric pressure, gravity, mental pressure, any pressure - it's all relative to the simple + and -. From actions come rebounds; chemical reactions, atomic reactions. Seems there is always an equilibrium involved as well. I would even go as far as to say that this is what and where karma comes from. What goes around comes around? Sounds to me like something enforcing balance - like I said equilibrium...

Ah, another analogy. The + and - is synonymous with Infinity and (that word I said in an earlier post) Negative Infinity, respectively.

Seems really simple, but so complicated...

I have had this same answer occur to me when I ponder it as well, almost as if someone just said "circle" in my head.

Ever since then it's like I can feel the intrinsic understanding of this concept, but never enough to verbalise or visualise it.

How can time run in a circle? This is the one thing I just cannot understand. I realise we only perceive time in a linear fashion, that time can be affected by gravity (?) and that time is far more subjective than one might initially realise.

That said, the theory that time (as an element of the universe) is cyclic or circular to me implies that "sooner or later" time will circle around again and repeat, or travel over the same ground.

Specifically: I will be living this life at some stage over and over and over again - right?

Originally posted by azurecara
Specifically: I will be living this life at some stage over and over and over again - right?

Perhaps over and over again, but just with a differect reaction to every action - for infinity...
Perhaps all of us will and that's what makes infinity infinity, or part of it...
???

Originally posted by impaired


And as far as the circle thing, I just see a circle as a line that comes together and repeats (given there is energy to keep the circuit going, which is a different subject, I guess...).
But since the circle connects from opposite directions, it still comes from itself TO itself, or the same point.

Doesn't a square and equal lateral triangle do the same?

I just can't figure out what it is about a circle lol

Originally posted by breakingdradles
Doesn't a square and equal lateral triangle do the same?
I just can't figure out what it is about a circle lol

Good point, but realize that triangles and squares have angles. A circle has none.

It seems that energy would be able to flow more continuously and in a more streamlined fashion in arcs as opposed to areas with angles...
I could be very wrong, but I think 60 degrees is the minimum angle for a shape to connect with itself (triangle). Don't quote me on that.
But either way it seems to me a circle would get the job done more efficiently.

You aren't that far off about the rings and such. This has been known since ancient times, and is called the flower of life. My avatar is a colorized version of it, the things outside the main circle are added on, the snowflake thing. Search google images and you'll find it pretty quick.

The flower of life is generally circled with 2 circles at the end. This represents infinity, as the pattern keeps repeating.



This is known as sacred geometry.



start with a single point, the "singularity". Add a 2nd point, division and duality. Draw a circle with the radius between the 2 dots. You will get 2 circles. Take the points where each of the circles cross( 4 points now ) and repeat the process drawing more circles. This pattern repeats for infinity.

Between the points you can now draw straight lines. Doing this can give you every basic geometric shape, in 2d, and in 3d as well. It can also give you what is called the shadow of 4d, but our perception isn't really letting us see in 4d. In order to see the 4d shapes, you'd need to not only have 4d vision, but then each circle would become a sphere and so forth. Building up the dimensions.

The 2 points is the dualism, negative and positive someone mentioned.

It does contain metatron's cube as well. You'll probably recognize it.



And within metatrons cube you can find the platonic solids represented.

en.wikipedia.org...

The star of David in religion is a 2d version of a double tetrahedra, also found within metatrons cube etc.

www.kalarhythms.com...

Otherwise known as a Merkaba, where the 2 spin in opposite directions to form a spiritual type vehicle.

There is tons more, and tons that I don't know. Very tip of the iceberg here. I've never had time to go further into beyond a general understanding.

Depending on how you want to look at it, you can call the flower of life the fabric of the universe, or I think more fitting is - the fabric of perception.

But the real question is between creation and creator, what perceives and what is perceived etc, I'll make another post about that.


[edit on 8-5-2009 by badmedia]

Creation itself is nothing more than a hologram, or a virtual reality of sorts. A field of information. Think of it as a program. A program that is based on logic, and logic sets forth rules and laws. In the beginning, there was "the word". The word is the logic, the rules, the start of the program.

But what is the observer? What is consciousness? What does it mean to be? These are things logic can't give at all. Consciousness is that which creates logic, and this reality is based on logic, rules and laws. It's all action and reaction, repeatable over and over, consistent and so on. The realm of science, is the study of creation. But it takes a scientist, the consciousness within him in order to understand it. Without the scientist, there is no science. Because logic is just following the pattern, it doesn't observe, it doesn't feel, it just follows the laws.

Consciousness doesn't follow action and reaction. It is able to reason, and have choice. It is not of this creation. Science ignores it because it is not equipped to deal with it. Can't get it to repeat things 99% of the time in a lab.

AI and robots etc are just things working on the laws of action and reaction. You can make complex things if you understand action and reaction well enough, our bodies are prime examples. In movies where these things become like humans is when some "miracle" happens and they gain consciousness, the gain a soul basically.

So there is creation and creator. What is being observed, and that which observes it. I think, therefore I am. To be, or not to be.

In the bible there is mention of 2 births. 1 birth is the physical, the other birth is your soul. The physical birth is of your parents, and of your flesh. From the dust of the earth. Based on logic. The other birth is the soul, that which is of god. And that is where the consciousness comes from, that is what "you" truly are.

So, it's like if you play a video game. You are not your character, you are the consciousness behind the character. Your character may die, but you don't die. Can't kill the consciousness, because it's not of this creation. Just like can't kill you in a video game, because you are not part of the video game. But don't take my word for it, find out for yourself.

But when you see the possibilities of what you can do in a video game, well that's pretty much what you can get in creation. Nothing more than a pixel of light or whatever. They follow the rules and logic of the program, just like a video game, but what those laws and rules are can change from game to game, from experience to experience.

And as the father(god) is said to be all knowing, this means that all things which are possible do exist(yes, even purple flying elephants), and they exist all at the same time. It's just a matter of what becomes a reality for your experience. Because it's really all just information. Thus why things like knowledge and wisdom are more valuable than gold and so forth. Because it's about like people who go crazy over gold in a video game.

In order to have this experience of life the way it is, it requires the consciousness to not have knowledge of everything. Thus, god "dumbs" himself down and creates you. The son/daughter of the father, who is much greater than all of us because we can not possible come to terms with all that is known. Can't very well have a poker game if everyone is all knowing and knows what all the cards are. Thats why if you kill someone, it's a sin against god, rather than just breaking a rule.

So there are other experiences, and I suppose one can go on to those experiences. However, in order to have those experiences one must be in "sync" with them. For example, if you steal, then by default you can't live in a society without theft. Your very presence rules out the possibility for it.

There is a path you make across the information/universe. Based on your choices etc. It's not a linear reality set in stone, it's like a choose your own adventure book. This is part of free will and such, I can go into more detail if you want. I've talked about these things before, so you may have already read them.

Consciousness creates logic, consciousness comes "first", but consciousness is eternal and always has been, always will be. So consciousness came before both the chicken and the egg.



[edit on 8-5-2009 by badmedia]