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posted on May, 12 2009 @ 04:07 PM
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Originally posted by Hemisphere
I’m gonna side with blupblup here. Come right out and say atheist if that’s who you’re addressing OT.


a few questions my friend...

which is a broader term..atheist or skeptic...

also...are you implying ot is afraid to mix it up with atheists...

I am glad u recognize the value of christian teachings...tendencies...you term it..


sorry for the all lower case...its this treo u know...

I asked what I wanted to ..to garnish more responses..that's all...

the thread stands on its own...

blubblub is a good man....we have buried the hatchet...so to speak....if my semantics are lacking I will work to be better next time ok...




posted on May, 12 2009 @ 04:25 PM
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Originally posted by wassy
Thats stupid everyone will be praying for different things so it wouldnt work



Thanks wassy for the contribution....

please clarify when you have time ok?

OT



posted on May, 12 2009 @ 04:38 PM
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Originally posted by moocowman
[
 


JC was teaching the disciples...in 31-ish AD about the power of prayer for them....THEM!


Clearly not OT Jesus says "Anyone"---



moo...I am baffled that you reject JC, because people that follow the teachings of him (as u interpret) don't get what they WANT????

We've discussed correct interpretation...and application of scriptures in the past...thought I'd give you some principles to marinate on...

1. Study the context of the passage and the theme of the book.
2. Look up the actual meaning of each word in the original languages.
3. Note the verb tenses, the cases, and other grammatical determinants.
4. Learn the cultural setting of the passage.
5. Determine what the original readers understood it to mean.
6. Check out cross-references to see how the words are used in other contexts.
7. See how the first mention of the word or topic is presented in the Bible.
8. Confirm an interpretation with two or three similar passages.


then AND ONLY then interpret.....what you call FACE VALUE is lazy bro...

OT



[edit on 12-5-2009 by OldThinker]



posted on May, 12 2009 @ 06:56 PM
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Moo/All...

There are 6 factors when considering PROPER Biblie INTERPRETATION (and application) Mr. Gothard has them here..


1. Spiritual Perception Over Intellectual Understanding
The first factor of interpreting Scripture is to approach it as an exercise in spiritual discernment rather than just an intellectual pursuit. Paul emphasized this in his letter to the Corinthian believers. “But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned” (I Corinthians 2:14). Jesus Himself confirmed that Biblical understanding does not come from human reasoning but from spiritual enlightenment. He said, “I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes” (Matthew 11:25).

The Holy Spirit is the One Who inspired the writing of Scripture, and He is the most qualified One to interpret its meaning to each reader. Jesus assured us that the Holy Spirit would indeed guide us into all truth. “Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth” (John 16:13).

This being the case, it is also reasonable to conclude that if a person who wants to interpret Scripture has sinful habits or practices in his life that grieve the Holy Spirit and quench His power, the Holy Spirit will not reveal the truth of Scripture to such a person. In fact, God warns that such individuals will take Scripture out of context to their own destruction. (See II Peter 3:16.) This result supports the axiom that a man’s morality will dictate his theology and his philosophy.

2. God’s Revelation Over Human Reasoning
In the final analysis, accurate Biblical interpretation is based on the revelation of Jesus Christ throughout the Scriptures. Nowhere is this more clearly demonstrated than on that walk on the road to Emmaus. The disciples had been personally taught by Jesus for three years. However, they still did not understand the Scriptures from which He taught. They were distracted by the conflicting interpretations of contemporary scholars. It was not until Jesus began with Moses and all the prophets and explained how they revealed Him that they understood the true meaning of Scripture. “And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself” (Luke 24:27). They later recalled, “Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the Scriptures?” (Luke 24:32).

The scholars of Jesus’ day carried out heated debates over the correct interpretation of Scripture, but Jesus counseled them to search the Scriptures on the basis that they testified of Him. “Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me” (John 5:39).

3. Genuine Love Rather Than Justification of Selfishness
Since the Scriptures reveal the person and work of the Lord Jesus Christ, it also follows that the primary theme of the Bible is the love of God and how we are to live out His love in our daily words and actions.

When a clever lawyer tried to involve Jesus in a wordy battle, He began his forensic sparring with the question “Which is the greatest commandment?” The reply that Jesus gave is a profound principle for Biblical interpretation. All the Law and prophets are based on the command to love God with all of our hearts, souls, minds, and strength, and to love our neighbors as ourselves.

Therefore, we must interpret Scripture on the basis of how it teaches us to love God and to love others. Love is the theme of the Bible. All good character qualities are simply practical expressions of genuine love. When the Pharisees used the Law of Moses to justify their harsh and unloving treatment of wives, Jesus reproved them for hardness of heart and took them back to the Creation design of one man and one woman becoming one flesh for the rest of their lives.

The lawyer who tried to engage Jesus in debate then tried to justify himself by asking, “Who is my neighbor?” to which Jesus responded with the parable of the Good Samaritan.

4. Christ’s Commands Over Man’s Theology
Every interpretation of Scripture is based on some foundational structure of reasoning. Jesus provides the structure of truth in the commands that He gave to His disciples during His earthly ministry, and they are the guiding lights for correct Biblical interpretation. They clarify what was written in the Old Testament and are further explained in New Testament teaching. Jesus promises that if we keep His commands before our eyes, He will reveal more of Himself to us. This was the great goal of Paul: “That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection” (Philippians 3:10). Jesus further promises, “If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free” (John 8:31–32).

It is customary for a Bible scholar to base his interpretation of a passage on the theological position that he has accepted. The problem with this approach is that no theological system is totally without some human error, because it is not inspired. It is man’s explanation of Biblical truth.

This is not to say that theology is unimportant. Wrong doctrine leads to wrong behavior. No one was more concerned about false doctrine than the Apostle Paul. He maintained a continual battle against false teaching. However, he did not base sound doctrine on the theological views of his day but on the words of Jesus Christ and that which leads to Christlike living.

He explains this in his epistle to Timothy. “If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself” (I Timothy 6:3–5).

5. One Interpretation and Many Applications
The Bible makes it clear that there is only one interpretation of Scripture. However, there can be many applications. It is the Holy Spirit Who guides us not only to the right interpretation of a passage but also to the precise application of Scripture to our daily lives. If our lives are in harmony with the Lord, we can expect the Holy Spirit to illuminate certain passages of Scripture for our personal application. When this happens, it is God giving us a “rhema” of Scripture.

In the New Testament, the Word of God is generally referred to by the Greek word logos. Jesus is identified as the Living Word (logos). However, there are many references that use the Greek word rhema to define the Word of God. A rhema is a precise direction of Scripture for a particular person or circumstance. When Jesus told Peter to cast his net on the other side of the boat, Peter replied, “Master, we have toiled all the night, and have taken nothing: nevertheless at thy word [rhema] I will let down the net” (Luke 5:5). Jesus did not tell every one to cast their nets on the other side of the boat—only Peter.

It is on the point of the Holy Spirit applying a passage of Scripture to a decision that critics often rise up and claim that this is not acceptable hermeneutics. Their quarrel is not with believers who know in their spirits that God is directing them by the witness of two or three rhemas, but with the Holy Spirit Who confirms the application of rhemas.

Jesus used rhemas in overcoming Satan’s temptations, and one of the passages He used affirms rhemas. “But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word [rhema] that proceedeth out of the mouth of God” (Matthew 4:4).

6. Correct Divisions of Truth Versus Truth Out of Balance
Paul gave Timothy wise instruction in hermeneutics when he wrote, “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth” (II Timothy 2:15).

Scripture is a living, powerful instrument in the hand of God. It functions on what appears to us to be paradoxes. In a similar fashion, the muscles in our bodies are only able to function by opposing tensions.

On the one hand, Scripture presents the Law of God, but then it contrasts this with the grace of God. Scripture teaches the need for justice, but then it counters this with mercy. We are told to cease from our own labor and enter the rest that is in Christ. At the same time, we are commanded to work for the night is coming when no man can work and to labor for the Lord. We have freedom in Christ. However, we are to make ourselves servants to all people.

If we emphasize only one side of God’s Biblical equation, we can certainly support it with verses of Scripture, but we will come out with the wrong answer. Truth out of balance leads to heresy. For example, if we emphasize the “rest” that a believer has and fail to give equal and primary emphasis to the “labor” of a believer, we will view any emphasis on working for the Lord as legalism.Paul put labor and rest together when he wrote, “There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief” (Hebrews 4:9–11). Similarly, there is certainly freedom in Christ. However, if we focus on freedom, we will react to God-ordained authority as being oppressive and cultish.
Proper hermeneutics requires diligent use of all the above factors under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
I do diagree with the SEPARIST lifestyle, but not this...

[edit on 12-5-2009 by OldThinker]



posted on May, 13 2009 @ 09:58 AM
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Why would we be upset that he prays? He certainly needs to because he is a hot mess.



posted on May, 13 2009 @ 10:08 AM
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reply to post by OldThinker
 





JC was teaching the disciples...in 31-ish AD about the power of prayer for them....THEM!



Clearly not OT Jesus says "Anyone"---






moo...I am baffled that you reject JC, because people that follow the teachings of him (as u interpret) don't get what they WANT????



I reject the jesusyahweh god for a variety of reasons OT, not because people don't get what they want.

I don't interpret anything, xtianity makes claim that the creator of all that there is came to earth with a message. It is claimed that this message was written in the bibles.
Should I out of curiosity take this claim at face value and read what this god has to say allegedly to me, I find the aforementioned promises.

However you OT claim that although the creator of the universe clearly says "Anyone" he doesn't actually mean anyone and one should not take what this god says at face value, although you also claim that there are some things that gos said that should be taken at face value.

In order to do this we should seek the interpretation of other men (such as yourself), who for some reason believe without any evidence to prove their case have greater understanding of the words of the creator of the universe.





We've discussed correct interpretation...and application of scriptures in the past...thought I'd give you some principles to marinate on...


We've discussed nothing, you claim that you and the men that you agree with have greater understanding of what god said to all.

Clearly if a god has a message for all to hear and understand then that message would get through and not require "middle men" to put their spin on things.

If your claim is true, that gods message requires interpreters then clearly the message was not for all, but for a minority who believe they have authority to claim what they believe is true.


2. Look up the actual meaning of each word in the original languages.
3. Note the verb tenses, the cases, and other grammatical determinants.
4. Learn the cultural setting of the passage.
5. Determine what the original readers understood it to mean.
6. Check out cross-references to see how the words are used in other contexts.
7. See how the first mention of the word or topic is presented in the Bible.
8. Confirm an interpretation with two or three similar passages.


So why go to all this trouble dude ? if jesusyahwhe was only speaking to a few illiterate jews in 31 ish ad ? The message was clearly not for "anyone" after after all.

If this was the case OT, that jesusgods promises on "whatever you ask for" (not want) was only for the apostles then no one else would have been privy to these instructions no one else would have heard them !

What purpose exactly do these verses serve if they were only for the ears of the apostles ? Who let the big secret out OT ?

Again OT you have not addressed the question in relation to the purpose of the apostles, which was specifically to teach other people what jesus had to say,for some reason an omniscient god was unable to do it himself.

If you counter this by claiming that he did get the message out via the bibles then obviously he forgot to mention that later generations would require interpreters, such as yourself to explain what was said.

This being the case, we are either reliant on our own interpretation of previous interpretations of the bibles texts and make what we will of what we read.

Or we can listen to the opinion of someone else who claims to have authority of understanding as what a god said.

So join a church and let some pastor or bishop tell you what some theologian told him what the bibles actually mean.

Now that is pretty lazy Bro.






then AND ONLY then interpret.....what you call FACE VALUE is lazy bro...


Many different editions of the bible claim they are more "up to date" interpretations of scriptures by unknown authors.
Are you OT claiming that all these bibles in circulation, require some sort of professor to hold the hand of the reader and explain what " he who hath not sinned should cast the first stone" actually means?

Are you claiming that the word "anyone" was not used by yahwejesus when he spoke to the apostles (as you claim) and would receive "anything" they asked of him, as "anyone" is completely out of context when speaking privately to a dozen.

Perhaps in this instance "anyone" should be "anyone of you here " but surely that would mean that every bible containing the word "anyone" is in error and not the word of god ?





7. See how the first mention of the word or topic is presented in the Bible.


So which bible would that be OT, do you mean to say that in your lifetime you've sat down and read every single different version of the bibles?
Which one of these bible do you accept has the correct interpretatopn of what the jesus god said ?

Or do you have a copy of the very first bible ever produced, if so where did you get it, Nicea ? Who translated it for you ? How do you know he translated it correctly ? Are there Unicorns in your bible OT ?


Do you know what the difference is between you and I OT ?

I get a wardrobe from IKEA and put it together by looking at all the parts It's a knack some people have), if it doesn't fit properly then I read the instructions thinking I did something wrong.
If having read the instructions and followed them, I find the wardrobe still doesn't work properly I simply take it back because the instructions are incorrect. I then go somewhere else and buy one with clear instructions and stick it together job done.

You however OT appear to be the type who will buy the same wardrobe and spend the next month analyzing the instruction manual. You'll then put the wardrobe together and find it doesn't work, you take it apart and re read the instructions and put it together again. It still doesn't work so you ask someone who happens to work in wal mart furniture to help you.

He follows the instructions and also ends up with a wardrobe that does not work but you both agree that the wardrobe looks fine, as your friend doesn't want to look foolish and you don't want to dis your friend.

You then spend the next five years putting your clothes in a wardrobe that doesn't work properly and studying carpentry books trying to find out where you went wrong.

Dude, a good carpenter doesn't hide the chisel from the apprentice, unless he fears the apprentice becoming a greater craftsman than he.



posted on May, 13 2009 @ 11:42 AM
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Originally posted by OldThinker
Moo/All...

There are 6 factors when considering PROPER Biblie INTERPRETATION (and application) Mr. Gothard has them here..




3. Genuine Love Rather Than Justification of Selfishness
Since the Scriptures reveal the person and work of the Lord Jesus Christ, it also follows that the primary theme of the Bible is the love of God and how we are to live out His love in our daily words and actions.

When a clever lawyer tried to involve Jesus in a wordy battle, He began his forensic sparring with the question “Which is the greatest commandment?” The reply that Jesus gave is a profound principle for Biblical interpretation. All the Law and prophets are based on the command to love God with all of our hearts, souls, minds, and strength, and to love our neighbors as ourselves.

Therefore, we must interpret Scripture on the basis of how it teaches us to love God and to love others. Love is the theme of the Bible. All good character qualities are simply practical expressions of genuine love. When the Pharisees used the Law of Moses to justify their harsh and unloving treatment of wives, Jesus reproved them for hardness of heart and took them back to the Creation design of one man and one woman becoming one flesh for the rest of their lives.

The lawyer who tried to engage Jesus in debate then tried to justify himself by asking, “Who is my neighbor?” to which Jesus responded with the parable of the Good Samaritan.






Hey OT,

I am not a christian although i was christened and went to a christian school. I do not live my life by the bible and am not part of my local church's flock. Quite young i chose to think for myself rather than follow others. This is not to say i do not recognise certain elements in christianity that i also agree with & choose to live by. There were a handful of hymns at school that i enjoyed singing, not all but a few, i understood them and loved the togetherness of everyone singing there little hearts out.

Your good samaritan parable relates to this one, if i could have found a youtube vid i would of used that but unfortunately i could not, shame, it was quite a nice tune
:


would you walk by on the other side
when someone called for aid
would you walk by on the other side
and would you be afraid


cross over the road my friend
ask the lord his strength to lend
his compassion has no end
cross over the road

would you walk by on the other side
when you saw a loved one stray
would you walk by on the other side
would you just watch and pray


cross over the road my friend
ask the lord his strength to lend
his compassion has no end
cross over the road


would you walk by on the other side
when starving children cried
would you walk by on the other side
and would you not provide


cross over the road my friend
ask the lord his strength to lend
his compassion has no end
cross over the road



Enjoy
MCoG









[edit on 13-5-2009 by MCoG1980]



posted on May, 13 2009 @ 03:54 PM
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reply to post by MCoG1980
 




Appreciate your post, your transparency the the song....


All three...


OT



posted on May, 13 2009 @ 04:07 PM
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reply to post by moocowman
 


1. The importance of context. No passage of
scripture can be correctly interpreted by itself.
Each needs to be understood within the context it
is found. There is an immediate and a general
context. The immediate context is made up of
the verses just before and just after the one in
question. The general context refers to what the
Bible as a whole says about the subject matter. If
our interpretation of any passage is in
contradiction to any other passage, we have
erred.
Example: Look at Mark 11:24. If this was all a
person knew about prayer, he would think prayer
was a way to get “whatever” he might want,
simply by believing. If he looked at the
immediate context, he would learn from verse
twenty-two that his faith must be in God. That
helps a little more, but it still doesn’t tell the whole
story. The general context of the Bible tells us
that we are to pray according to God’s will (John
15:7, John 5:14-15). This is a classic example of
the importance of context.


Much more here: www.gbcmpk.org...


Allow the clear, simple, and explicit to
interpret the unclear, complex, and implicit.
There are passages that are more clear and those
that are less clear. We need to understand the
complex in light of the simple, not the other way
around. If we have to stretch the interpretation
of an otherwise clear passage to accommodate
our interpretation of a less clear passage, we are
mistaken.
Example: In some cases the Bible interprets
itself clearly (e.g., the lampstands and stars in
Revelation 1:12 & 16 are clearly interpreted in
v.20.) Other passages, though not directly
interpreted, are obvious (e.g., the Lamb in
Revelation 5, though not named, is clearly the
Lord Jesus.) When studying portions that are not
as clear (especially prophecy), care must be
taken that they are not interpreted in a way that
challenges or changes the interpretation of the
passages that are clear.
3. Grammatico-Historical Method. Because the
Bible was written long ago in another culture and
in a language other than 21st century American
English, we must seek to understand what the
words in a passage meant to those who wrote
them in their historical setting. We must not
interpret scripture based on modern usage of
words or modern culture.
Example: When Jesus pronounced several
“woes” on the Pharisees in Luke 11, we must
understand the term “woe” in the setting in which
Jesus used it, rather than as we might use it
today. To us, “woe” is a term used to describe
sorrow. When a Biblical prophet used the term
“woe,” he was pronouncing the strongest form of
denunciation or curse.
Paul’s many references to circumcision are
confusing and embarrassing to many modern
readers, but in Paul’s time circumcision was
vitally important and understood within a
religious, rather than a medical or private context.
Even words in older English translations can
be misleading. When the King James Bible was
written in 1611, the word “rent” meant something
different fron it means to people today. To us it
means use for a price. To them it meant tear or
rip. So when we read, “he rent his coat in twain,”
we should not think he was using his clothing for
a price, but instead, that he tore his coat in two.
4. Progressive Revelation. The writers and
characters in the earliest writings did not know
what God would reveal later in history. More
details of God’s grace were known to Paul than
to Abraham, for instance. As God has revealed
more of Himself and His plan for His people, the
picture has become clearer. Therefore, while not
discounting the revelation of God in the Old
Testament, we must give special attention to how
the later pieces of God’s revelation complete the
earlier pieces. The New Testament provides
commentary on the Old Testament.
THE WORD OF GOD
APPENDIX FOUR
ii
Example: Genesis 4 does not make it clear what
made Abel’s sacrifice acceptable and Cain’s
unacceptable. Hebrews 11:4 clarifies it, saying
the issue was faith.
King David had many wives. Though God
allowed it, in the New Testament, however, it is
clear that God’s plan since creation was for a
man to have only one wife (Matthew 19:1-8).


mooo, yes ...we have discussed this before...about 2 years ago....don't have time to find tho...



posted on May, 13 2009 @ 04:11 PM
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Originally posted by moocowman

the last four examples here...




Recognize what kind of literature you are
reading. Poetry in the Bible needs to read like
poetry. The Bible contains sarcasm, hyperbole
(exaggeration), and symbolism. To read it as
though it were an encyclopedia of religion is to
misunderstand it.
Example: If I were reading a poem about a
man’s love for his wife and it said, “Your teeth are
like the stars shining in the night sky,” I would
know that the woman’s teeth were not stars. I
would realize that the author was speaking
figuratively, not literally. Likewise, when I read in
the Psalms that God covers us with His wings, I
realize that God is not a heavenly chicken. I
understand that the Psalmist is speaking
figuratively, not literally.
If I hear a person say he was so mad he
“could have killed his boss,” I know he wasn’t
really homicidal — he was just really angry. In
the same manner, when Jesus instructs us to cut
off our hands and gouge out our eyes if they
cause us to sin, I must understand that He
doesn’t want us to physically maim ourselves, but
to be serious about avoiding sin.
6. Learn to diagram sentences. Much of the
Bible, especially the writings of Paul, contains
long and complicated sentences with, at times,
several digressions. We must be able to grasp
the subject and predicate, or the many
digressions are likely to confuse our
understanding of the basic meaning of the text.
Example: In 2 Peter 3, Peter has been talking
about the fact that Jesus will return, just as He
promised He would. The fact that He hasn’t
returned yet is not because He is slack
concerning His promise, but rather because He is
giving time for more people to come to saving
faith. Look at 2 Peter 3:14-16. This is one
sentence. There are ten commas, a semicolon,
and an en-dash. This sentence is long enough
with enough digressions, that one could easily
miss the point: that we must be diligent to be
found by Christ in peace when He returns.
Ironically, Peter digresses from that point and
ends up speaking about how hard it is to
understand Paul’s writings!
7. Interpretation v. Application. There is only
one correct interpretation of a passage (what it
means), but there may be many different
applications (how it directs my life). As long as
the interpretation is correct, and as long as the
applications I might derive from the
interpretation do not alter the interpretation, I
may find a number of applications.
Example: Proverbs 11:1 is about weights and
measures in business. That is the interpretation.
However, there are other applications to the truth
of God’s disdain for imbalance. So while the
passage is about honest weights and measures,
there is an application to be honest in all things.
8. Do not formulate doctrine on narratives
alone. The Word of God accurately records
what is written in it, but God does not sanction or
endorse all the events that are recorded. For this
reason, only when what is recorded in a narrative
(story) passage is also found in a didactic
(teaching) passage should we formulate any
doctrine or conclusion about how we are to live.
Example: Genesis 12 and 20 record Abraham
lying about his relationship with Sarah (calling her
his sister instead of his wife). Genesis 26
records Isaac doing the same thing. I must not
conclude that lying is okay based on these
accurate narratives of the Patriarchs’ sins. In
didactic portions like Revelation 21:8, we read
that liars will be cast into the lake of fire.



more: www.gbcmpk.org...


I think you are sincere, and are a truth seeker...just think you need to do some more research on interpretation moo...

OT

PS Love the way to dialog my man...hope you have a great day!



posted on May, 13 2009 @ 04:12 PM
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Originally posted by Victoria 1
Why would we be upset that he prays? He certainly needs to because he is a hot mess.



Great point V...He needs all the WISDOM he can get...I for one am praying for him...


Thx for the post...gotta go to dinner!

OT



posted on May, 13 2009 @ 04:13 PM
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Originally posted by OldThinker
reply to post by MCoG1980
 





Appreciate your post, your transparency the the song....


All three...


OT



Glad you liked it


I made this thread whilst having a philosophical moment one day, it's only one post long
the intention was for me to just get it out of my system and to brighten someones day if they read it. In it you will find youtube video's to my other favourite hymns (bottom of the post), i wish there was one for the one i posted above but unfortunately not as i said.
Please feel free to take a look - they all mean something to me, again enjoy my friend
:-

www.abovetopsecret.com...





[edit on 13-5-2009 by MCoG1980]



posted on May, 13 2009 @ 08:39 PM
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Originally posted by Hemisphere
And that folks is the unspoken truth.

Obama's Religious Ruse

There are evil people that hide behind religion and there are good people that refuse to hide behind religion.....



OK..????? ?



I looked at your provided link.....you really believe this HYPE??


The ruse that he is a Christian must be exposed for what it really is: Obama's cloak to conceal that he is a Marxist from a Muslim background, for which he holds widespread support in the Islamic world



Evidence?


Why would you present such propaganda? Motive?


Help OT out?



posted on May, 13 2009 @ 08:49 PM
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Originally posted by moocowman
So which bible would that be OT,



The Hebrew OT and the Greek NT.....

OT


PS I'm not distracted by the multiple versions...are the translators out there to confuse....nah....maybe to help those in their own language???..ever heard of wycliffe? Bad people moo? come on...!!!???

Wycliffe?

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link: www.wycliffe.org...

[edit on 13-5-2009 by OldThinker]



posted on May, 13 2009 @ 08:55 PM
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moo...

more of those EVIL translators....



A Healing Touch for the People of the World
Whether they serve as doctors, nurses or dentists, medical professionals serving with Wycliffe are touching the nations with the healing love of Jesus. They experience the joys and challenges of providing medical care to Wycliffe workers and the people of the language communities we serve. Whether working in the U.S. or overseas, they are able to heal and save lives, while God’s Word heals and saves souls.

“Five people were healing who would not be alive that day had we not been there the day before to help them. Wow!”
—Stephanie, Nurse in Papua New Guinea




come on you are really gonna complain that verily is now truly...?????


thy is now "you"??????


thine, yours?



ITS a DISTRACTION bro...


OT confused?



posted on May, 14 2009 @ 03:50 AM
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reply to post by OldThinker
 





Whether they serve as doctors, nurses or dentists, medical professionals serving with Wycliffe are touching the nations with the healing love of Jesus.


So who's love are Atheist and Islamic doctors and nurses touching people with exactly ?

If an Islamic nurse or doctor prays for someone suffering with measles and the measles clear up, then you would agree that this is a miracle from the love of Allah ?

You somehow seem to be claiming that the jesusyahweh god is curing sick people through doctors and nurses, if this is the case then there should be no problem eradicating sickness itself.


At this point I would like to clarify whether or not you believe what the bibles say about illness, in that it is brought about by demons.

Can you also expand on why, if so many doctors and nurses are (allegedly) healing people through prayer and faith not one single amputee in recorded history has had a limb regenerated.

One would normally apply a little logic to this question which would be -

1 Not one xtian has ever asked jesus to heal an amputee

2 Not one xtian actually believes jesus can do it

3 The bibles have been misinterpreted in that, healing people with prayer(faith) was never endorsed by jesus, it's something xtians made up and the ritual continues to perpetuate. IE jesus never actually said that you can heal people by praying.

4 Jesus (praying to him) can cure coughs colds headaches and such but can't do difficult stuff like regenerating a limb .


I note with interest many xtians claim (not necessarily yourself you may agree or not) why they choose to see a doctor, that doctors are in fact tools of jesus healing people.

I recently questioned one xtian as to why he believes that healing through prayer is real, when he has to take continually take medicine from a doctor. Why I asked does he not simply use prayer at church and have jesus cure him.
The insane response to this was that jesus was working through doctors but then I pointed out that his doctor is a Muslim, needless to say the subject was changed very quickly.

Many xtians make these weird and wonderful claims that medicine itself is the work of jesus (obviously to duck the issue of why xtians chooses to see a doctor) yet medicine itself is a science.

Herein lays the dichotomy of xtian belief in healing, xtians believe that medicine which is a science is a result of jesus answering prayers albeit the slow way.

Yet the very same people reject the same scientific method that describes our universe .

Things become more insane and deluded when xtians claim that a spiritualist healer or a shaman is in league with satan, yet (as in the case of the USA) consume millions of tonnes of drugs developed by atheist and Muslim scientists .



Do me a favour please OT, when you respond please use your own words it is pointless quoting reams of other peoples beliefs which you happen to accept. I'm speaking with you not someone who wrote a book one day, long winded convoluted copy and paste do not answer the very simple questions I pose.

What is quite clear from your posts is that your version of xtianity is very very complicate, requiring endless hours studying the opinions of other people. No wonder that people are leaving churches in their droves, their enticed (or born into) into this religion with amazing promises but then spend years listening to one excuse after the other, of how they need to understand.

The story that is sold to the public is of a poor carpenter who is not only the son of god but god himself, and people should come to him in order to have a good life and after life.

It's all spirals down from there and gets very very complicated because there is no evidence to support the extraordinary claims made.





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