A Question of Dark Energy and Gravity.

The Hubble telescope gave birth to the idea that Dark Energy could be the force driving the expansion of the universe.

I had an uneducated idea that gravity could be related to dark energy.
First of all please understand that my job means I spend a lot of time alone, I do work with people but out of a 10 hour day on average I am driving for around 6 hours. This gives me a lot of time to think about rubbish. The following could well be rubbish.
An educated reply would be very welcomed.

My thought:
Gravitation is a result of the curvature of space time, this is how my simple mind sees it. Is gravity classed as an energy? Could gravitation be related to dark energy in that one is there to keep an equilibrium with the other? A reaction to an action.

As the universe expands I guess dark energy increases? So why doesn't gravitation increase too? It does but we don't directly feel the effects because the extra gravitation is mainly absorbed by blackholes forming...erm and stuff.

Is this at all plausible? Have all my questions already got simple answers?

So many questions such little knowledge. I guess I could research this myself.

Edit: Perhaps this should be a work of the skunk variety?

[edit on 7-5-2009 by and14263]

I think the reason no one is posting is because no one knows if your right or not

It would take someone who knew such things as facts to answer a question and be sure about it.

I'm not sure how to imagine gravity as a result of the curvature of space time. Are you saying everything is on an incline and falling down, and that's gravity?

Originally posted by breakingdradles
I'm not sure how to imagine gravity as a result of the curvature of space time. Are you saying everything is on an incline and falling down, and that's gravity?

Gravitation is described in the theory of relativity as this. Not a direct physical result, more consequential. The curvature is not all matter or space but time space.
I hate to source Wikipedia but ...

I happen to think that the phenomenon we call 'gravity' is the same thing as magnetism.

A quote from David Talbott and Wallace Thornhill, Thunderbolts of the Gods:

“Today, nothing is more important to the future and credibility of science than liberation from the gravity-driven universe of prior theory. A mistaken supposition has not only prevented intelligent and sincere investigators from seeing what would otherwise be obvious, it has bred indifference to possibilities that could have inspired the sciences for decades.”

Thunderbolts

Theosophy - similar to Hermetic Philosophy, the Occult, and Esoteric Knowledge - regards magnetism as the same as Aether, or Chi, or Lifeforce, etc. These quotes are from Isis Unveiled, by H.P. Blavatsky.

The human body is subjected as well as the earth, and planets, and stars, to a double law; it attracts and repels, for it is saturated through with double magnetism, the influx of the astral light. Everything is double in nature; magnetism is positive and negative, active and passive, male and female. Night rests humanity from the day's activity, and restores the equilibrium of human as well as of cosmic nature.

We are at first irresistibly or unwittingly drawn within its dark circle by that peculiar influence, that powerful current of magnetism which emanates from ideas as well as from physical bodies.

These views corroborate what we have expressed about the various names given to the same thing. The disputants are battling about mere words. Call the phenomena force, energy, electricity or magnetism, will, or spirit-power, it will ever be the partial manifestation of the soul, whether disembodied or imprisoned for a while in its body — of a portion of that intelligent, omnipotent, and individual WILL, pervading all nature, and known, through the insufficiency of human language to express correctly psychological images, as — GOD.

Theosophy.org - Isis Unveiled

Check out the links, check out the theory. Some really interesting stuff to dig into.

reply to post by and14263

Dark Energy appears to be, based on the brightness of the most distant type-Ia supernovae, a mysterious force that is accelerating the expansion of the universe. These recent discoveries have provided good evidence that there is such an outward force on the universe (variously called the cosmological constant, "quintessence," or "dark energy").
Data about the rotation of galaxies shows us that the outer parts rotate as fast as the inner parts. This only makes sense if there is a spherical distribution of matter in each galaxy, which is not what we see. Therefore we infer that there is a certain amount of Dark Matter in each galaxy. This could be some exotic particles, or just lots of stars too small to have ignited.

Aside from this, there is also the Dark Matter that we think is there, based on theoretical arguments. This is something we can measure by looking at the cosmic microwave background and distant supernovae. These are the measurements (recently made) that imply the existence of both Dark Matter and Dark Energy.

imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov...

Thats what NASA says about dark matter and dark energy. Yes gravity is caused by the curvature of space, according to Einsteins Theory of Realitivity.

I believe you are heading down the right path. The reason we cannot understand gravity is because WE are time displaced from some of the effects of gravity.

The warp in space created by matter exist as waves in time. We cannot directly see dark matter or dark energy because it exists in our near past, but still effects us as we move through the universe.

The gravity that shapes our perceptions of time, and effects our perceivable universe, cannot be fully measured yet, because we have yet to create a way, or attempt to measure space time in terms of the now and our near past.

Our detection of dark matter is our first step in understanding time. Once we begin to realize that some of the dark matter is really just the matter we can see, plus lingering effects of it on space and time we will be well on our way to unfolding gravity and time .

[edit on 7-5-2009 by Xeven]

reply to post by Xeven


What makes you think that, I mean it sounds plausible, I am just wondering what research you have seen or done.

reply to post by jkrog08

One reason call it dark energy is it invisable, so in way gravity could be called dark energy.
Another thing is we can create magnetism, we can not create gravity, unless you say centrifugal force which is not gravity.
It would aslo seem that the amout of gravity in universe is all there is, no more, no less, unless you believe in Hawking's Rays.
By the way I myself don't believe in Hawking's rays.

Thanks for the replies. It would seem that dark energy is not a walk in the park. Some good stuff to look into. Cheers.

Simply put, even after all of our great advances in science namely physics, we still have absolutely no clue on why there is gravity and what gravity is made of.

It has been theorized that Dark Energy / Dark Matter could be used to bend space time. However, we already know gravity bends space time. We don't know if they go hand and hand or whether dark energy even exists. The new collider is supposed to answer some of these deep questions, but I fear as always it will just create new questions.

We do know that gravity is matter related. A super dense proton star puts out an incredible amount of gravity which eventually collapses space time to form a black hole. Space / Time literally turns inside out. Why this happens we still have no clue. We would actually have to study these anomalies first hand somehow which we have no way of doing. One hypothesis is that a black hole is endless or it is a tunnel to another part of space / time. Some think that it is simply a large dent in space / time and leads nowhere except to absolute demise.

When we think of gravity we think of something simple. What goes up must come down, but it is so much deeper than that. Gravity is probably the most complicated force in existence.

Also wanted to add that a superconductor for some reason creates a gravitational distortion for reasons unknown. My hypothesis is that it might point towards the electric universe.

[edit on 11-5-2009 by DaMod]

Originally posted by DaMod
Simply put, even after all of our great advances in science namely physics, we still have absolutely no clue on why there is gravity and what gravity is made of.

It's a particle called "graviton" that makes up gravity, as one theory goes. No one has ever seen the graviton the same way we cannot see the dark matter. So gravitons and dark matter share the same property with respect to the observer (that's us). The graviton is thought not to be a part of matter:

Unlike subatomic particles that make up matter and energy as we know them, gravitons are elementary particles that compose the fabric of space and time.

There would be no expansion of the universe without the universe building roads to travel (expand) on first. The transformation of the universe in its early stages decided on which road to travel. So the dark matter is a net of roads made of gravitons long time ago that the expanding universe travels on.

So if you put two objects, the size of the moon, for example, into a region in space that wasn't affected by the Big Bang, those two object would not start to move toward each other as you can see it in our universe.




[edit on 5/12/2009 by stander]

Originally posted by and14263
Gravitation is a result of the curvature of space time

Normally we think of the curvature of spacetime as being caused by gravity, not resulting from it. But you're right, they are related.

Is gravity classed as an energy?

Yes, it is. And energy can be converted from one form to another. To take an unusual example, you could convert kinetic energy to gravitational potental by chucking big rocks at each other.

Could gravitation be related to dark energy

Unlikely, since - as you know - they act in opposition to one another.

in that one is there to keep an equilibrium with the other?

No, the world isn't made according to a plan and physical processes are not teleological as far as we can tell.

As the universe expands I guess dark energy increases?

I would think it decreases, since it is the force that causes space to expand. If it behaves anything at all like a normal force, then increasing distance between two points should cause the force acting to separate them to reduce.

So why doesn't gravitation increase too?

That's why. Gravity obeys an inverse square law with distance.

It does but we don't directly feel the effects because the extra gravitation is mainly absorbed by blackholes forming...erm and stuff.

No, the universe is not putting on weight.

Have all my questions already got simple answers?

So far.

Perhaps this should be a work of the skunk variety?

Nah. It's legit. And you don't sound like a crank.

reply to post by Astyanax et al


These are the best replies I have ever had to a thread. Many thanks. I have actually learned something of immense value. My questions answered


It's amazing how one can getting so into an idea makes one makes vast oversights. If dark energy is the driving force then it decreases, I should really have seen that the amount of diesel I go through.

I was trying to think of some sort of power station that could harness the power of gravity and came across a thought, which upon actually searching seems to have been touched on www.abovetopsecret.com...

Has anybody come up with a reasonable hypothesis that results in gravity running out ?

Originally posted by jkrog08
reply to post by Xeven

 

What makes you think that, I mean it sounds plausible, I am just wondering what research you have seen or done.

Sorry it has taken so long. My conclusions are based on research I read and the obvious missing link in most gravity experiments. They forget about time.

I believe the reason they have so many unresolved experiments is because they fail to take into account the full measure of what they call 'weak gravity force" . It is my personal belief that gravities effects from a moment ago continue to add to the measured effects of the at the moment of measurement.
The math they use to prove their various theories explains perfectly the strength of gravity at the exact moment of measurement. When they look away from the math and do actually experiments they see things that their math does not explain.

In most cases and in a simplistic way of explaining it their math ignores the gravity effects of moments ago and only equates gravity in the moment.

It is my contention that as a body of mass moves through space/time the gravity force propagates through time as the mass moves from one moment to the next we do not lose all of the gravity force created in the previous moment.

Gravity does diminish across a time line as the mass moves through space/time yet as if we are caught in a wave of water we experience the current of the wave and the underlying currents the wave is moving over at the same time. This is what their experiments are measuring but their math does not take into effect.

Gravity moves at the speed of light. Earth moves much slower. So as Earth plows through space it is continually gorging a hole in space. Gravity waves Earth created in space time race out in all directions and even ahead of Earth. So Earth "feels" its own gravity from right now and rides the weakening wave it created a few moments ago. Thus when we take measurements we are measuring our current gravity plus any previous gravity we created.

As you scale this up say to Galaxy size you can imagine how large the gravity gorge and waves would be. This is dark energy. We cannot see it because it is in the past yet its energy is still with us for awhile in a diminishing way.

Perhaps all the bodies of mass creating gorges and waves in space are why we see expansion. If you sit in a tub of water you displaced the water and it rises. It looks like it expanded. Now put a rubber ducky in the water and start making waves. The ducky will start moving away from you due to the waves. Now expand this to a pool and swim through the pool. Your movement displaces water and creates waves. All the little ducks will move away as they ride the waves. Galaxies are swimmers.

Now you have to look at it backwards. We actually ride the troughs between the waves. Earth falls through time. If space were to freeze like a pool freezing around a swimmer time would stop just like a swimmer would stop in the pool.

Here are just a few of the papers I have read.

Excerpt from a paper:

Cornell University Library

Search for Frame-Dragging-Like Signals Close to Spinning Superconductors M. Tajmar, F. Plesescu, B. Seifert, R. Schnitzer, and I. Vasiljevich

The effects and the analysis so far lead to the following possible interpretations: 1. The effects are real: A frame-dragging-like signal was detected from spinning rings at cryogenic temperatures. The effect occurs below a critical temperature which does not coincide with the superconducting temperature of the rings. The strength of the effect depends on the material of the ring. The coupling factor of the observed effect with respect to the applied angular velocity is in the range of 3-5×10-8. We observed a parity violation, such that the effect is dominant in the clockwise rotation (when looking from above) in our laboratory setup. No classical or systematic explanation has been found so far for the observed effects. The field expansion is not clear at the moment and needs further investigation.

Additional Paper excerpt:

Einstein Field Equation: the Root of All Evil? Prediction on Gravity Probe B, Quantum Gravity and Solar Application
Authors: Jin He

Cornell University Library

Galaxies and the universe need dark matter or dark energy for their explanation. First public peek at Gravity Probe B results (GP-B) shows that both geodetic and frame-dragging effects are larger than GR predictions by the gap of about 25 mili-arc-second/year, i.e., mas/yr. Do we need dark matter even at our home? I suggest that there is no dark matter at all. But we need more gravity. I propose the principle of universal gravitation due to rotation. Any part of a rotational mass generates a force which is proportional to the product of the mass point and its squared relative velocity (relative to light speed c). Similar to Newton law, the force is proportional to the other mass on which the force is exerted and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between the two mass points. The suggestion is justifiable because both mass and rotation (spin) are invariant properties of nature. Because rotational gravity is anisotropic and is larger in equator direction, we had a simple explanation to why solar system is planar and all rotations are approximately in the same plane. Rotational gravity also suggests the possibility of anti-gravity. It is shown that the above GP-B gap can be covered by the new gravity. My prediction on geodetic effect is larger than GR by about $35\times H$ mas/yr while the frame dragging effect is larger by 19.5 mas/yr. Here $H$ is another constant associated with rotational gravity which plays the role of Newton gravitational constant $G$. I also present the quantization of covariant gravity and solar application.

Also I read papers on black holes and time dilation etc...

It seems to me they are only measuring a finite moment with their math while getting results that include diminishing effects of gravity waves that continue to effect us from a different moment in time. They completely ignore the dimension of time which nearly everyone agrees exists.

I believe it they created two experiments. One here on earth and another that essential did the same measurements in space behind Earths movement forward would allow them to see some results of what I am talking about. The First device would move along with earth while the other one would lag behind earth and eventually stop in relation to Earths forward momentum. As it slows behind earth it would measure the time dilation and diminishing effects of gravity when compared to the one left on earth. For the one on Earth time would continue as normal but the device left behind and eventually at rest in relation to earth, time would move faster and they could measure the changes in gravity as the Earths (bow shock?) and wake move away and diminish. Compare the data of the two and you should have an accurate measurement of the strength of gravity in relation to its effects on us over time. Perhaps having another device moving ahead and through the (bow shock) would add additional measurements to discover gravities true effects and strengths.

I will look up more stuff I have read that are leading me to the missing "time" as the answer to all their head scratching results. They invented time they should at least use it




[edit on 16-5-2009 by Xeven]

Originally posted by Astyanax

Originally posted by and14263
Could gravitation be related to dark energy?

Unlikely, since - as you know - they act in opposition to one another.

Rethink: perhaps they could be related by some conservation or polarity law we don't know about.

I modestly offer the idea to any physics student looking for a thesis subject.

There might be a clear energy.
Like in the air that is so clear.
And in the many electric waves we do not see.

Gravity might even be electric in nature.
Planets are spherical conductors and Suns are giant charge generators.

The clear energy can lift up UFOs in an electrostatic theory of flight.

Eric Lerner has put forth a super generator instead of the black
hole concept.