A valid political point - How are liberals pro-abortion but anti-torture?, page 5

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reply posted on 7-5-2009 @ 02:14 PM by justsomeboreddude

Originally posted by cautiouslypessimistic

Originally posted by justsomeboreddude
reply to post by cautiouslypessimistic

I am not sure that it is scientific fact to say a human fetus is not going to become a baby under normal circumstances, barring any complications. Is a human fetus going to become a baby under normal circumstances or not?

[edit on 7-5-2009 by justsomeboreddude]

Either you are a troll, or you arent very bright. I am not tryinig to be rude, but come on. I didnt say that a fetus wouldnt become a baby. I said it was scientific fact that a zygote or an embryo is not a living thing, and is definitely not a human being.

THIS IS FACT. Not a matter of opinion.

Women have had extremely premature babies that have lived to become normal people. These premature babies were born within the range for what is acceptable for abortion.

I dont think I said an embryo was life. I said an embryo will become a life given the things it needs. I guess a baby is not life,because if you stop feeding it or giving it air its going to die. It cant sustain life on its own.

reply posted on 7-5-2009 @ 02:15 PM by Aldolas

Originally posted by justsomeboreddude
How is it that liberals are against torture but pro abortion? So its not ok to torture your enemy but it is ok to end your childs life? Can someone please explain?

For once, I'll just answer this question, without reading the topic or coming back to read the replies.
Perhaps because torture is torture:
It doesn't matter if you torture an enemy or torture an unwanted child into and through life without a family or future. And don't go telling me, that an 'accidental' child or a child of a rape-victim is going to have a fair start in life or have equal chances to a child that grows up in a half-decent (i.e. modern societies 'normal') family.

So, as all tempers always flair up on this topic (including mine

) "I'll leave you guys to it."

Chillax and have a good evening,
Sammy

EDIT to add: And I'm pro giving the old and very sick the possibility of going 'with dignity', i.e. Euthanasie
It's all taking life, but all vs. torture!!

[edit on 7-5-2009 by Aldolas]

reply posted on 7-5-2009 @ 02:18 PM by jjkenobi

OP could even take it a step further - death penalty by electric chair or firing squad or even hypodermic needle can be considered cruel and unusual by libs. But sucking the brain out of a baby whose head is sticking out of the birth canal is okay.

Listen people, please don't come and argue abortion isn't killing a live baby. Your argument, which is very hollow at best, only address first term or first trimester abortions. So ok, how about I give you your shallow argument that a fetus which we all know will grow into a baby isn't really a baby when it is aborted in the first trimester. Please explain how aborting a child in the second or third trimester is not ending a life. Does a heartbeat not constitute life? I have two children. I saw the baby definition and heartbeat and movements and gender in an ultrasound at 18 weeks old.

reply posted on 7-5-2009 @ 02:18 PM by justsomeboreddude

reply to post by Aldolas

So what you are saying is that having an unwanted child is actual torture for the child. So I guess in your mind being pro-choice is exactly the same as being anti-torture. Well believe what you want to believe I cant tell you how to think.

reply posted on 7-5-2009 @ 02:18 PM by jdub297

reply to post by justsomeboreddude

If you are equating liberals with " a woman's right to control her own body" and "reproductive rights," then how do you explain liberals' outcry against and mockery of a single woman who decides to have 14 children while out of work on "disability?"

(Could that be considered "torture" from society's POV or any 1 of the 14?)

jw

reply posted on 7-5-2009 @ 02:23 PM by Aldolas

Originally posted by justsomeboreddude
reply to post by Aldolas
[...] Well believe what you want to believe I cant tell you how to think.

Damn, I'm still on this thread! ^^

I think that is very important. To sometimes just agree to disagree and still stay respectful to the other person.

Sry, offtopic, but I think that post is worth a compliment!

EDIT TO ADD: To be fair, (very) many of us are unplanned, or unwanted children, but there are circumstances, where it would be better for all concerned, especially the children, if they hadn't been born.

[edit on 7-5-2009 by Aldolas]

[edit on 7-5-2009 by Aldolas]

reply posted on 7-5-2009 @ 02:26 PM by justsomeboreddude

reply to post by Aldolas

Thanks for sharing your opinion. After all I started this just to try to understand the logic that people use to say one side is right and the other side is wrong.

reply posted on 7-5-2009 @ 02:26 PM by NGNM85

Originally posted by justsomeboreddude
How is it that liberals are against torture but pro abortion? So its not ok to torture your enemy but it is ok to end your childs life? Can someone please explain?

One could easily reply "How is it right wingers are anti-abortion, but love war and the death penalty?" I just read a reliable survey that found most self-identified regular churchgoers generally support torture. This is part of why I laugh when I hear people talk about "Christian virtue',..that and hundreds of years of violence, and bigotry. Anyhow.. Let me try and clear this up. Ok, you see the distinction, and this is often misunderstood, or deliberately obfuscated, is that in abortion, whats' being terminated is not a person, but the POTENTIALITY of a person. Big difference. In torture you are taking an actual existing person, and brutalizing them. Also, to any who support these tactics, i think you're on the wrong site. really, I mean, you hate the government or authority or whatever,...yet you want to give them a blank check to abduct, and torture people indefinitely? This is exactly the thing you should be most against. Moreover, it's been proven, beyond all the moral reasons against it, torture DOESN'T REALLY WORK. If you beat somebody long enough they will tell you they shot JFK, RFK, MLK, JR, whoever, ..that doesn't necessarily make it so. Second, it actually encourages enemies to do the same thing to our people.

reply posted on 7-5-2009 @ 02:29 PM by justsomeboreddude

reply to post by NGNM85

Just to let you know. I have not brought up Christianity in support of this discussion. I would prefer it not get into the religous aspects. Thanks for sharing your opinion.

reply posted on 7-5-2009 @ 02:29 PM by nasdack24k

Originally posted by justsomeboreddude

You can be pro-war because you believe that sometimes you must fight to keep your freedom and safety.

Isn't that the reason women have abortions in the first place; to protect their health/safety and to remain free from 18 years of endless servitude?

reply posted on 7-5-2009 @ 02:31 PM by justsomeboreddude

reply to post by nasdack24k

Great argument. I have to say I dont know why people get an abortion. Some small percent probably have legitimate medical concerns or have been raped. But the rest I dont know why.

Hopefully people arent so selfish as to see taking care of their children as 18 years of servitude and torture. Though I will admit I have had days where I felt like that

reply posted on 7-5-2009 @ 02:32 PM by Aldolas

reply to post by justsomeboreddude

I don't think either side is right or wrong. But I do think, that the choice should be there.
Because as I said there are circumstance...

I'm not pro 'easy abortion': i.e. Oh you were careless and 'can't be asked for kid yet', let's get rid of it, until it's more convenient (2 years time

) (Otherwise I wouldn't exist, neither would many of us who are currently posting for both sides!) BUT, sometimes it is better, for all involved to have an abortion.

reply posted on 7-5-2009 @ 02:35 PM by nasdack24k

Originally posted by jdub297
reply to post by justsomeboreddude

If you are equating liberals with " a woman's right to control her own body" and "reproductive rights," then how do you explain liberals' outcry against and mockery of a single woman who decides to have 14 children while out of work on "disability?"

(Could that be considered "torture" from society's POV or any 1 of the 14?)

jw

Because that lady(if you really want to call her that) is a huge strain on the balance of our fragile socialist welfare system - on purpose. Even liberals know that.

Reproductive rights is one thing. It crosses a line when someone blatantly abuses the system. But in a true socialist/communist dictatorship, most of her kids would either be exterminated or redistributed to other families in order to lessen the burden on the state. Even communism has a bottom line.

[edit on 5/7/2009 by nasdack24k]

reply posted on 7-5-2009 @ 02:35 PM by justsomeboreddude

reply to post by Aldolas

Yeah I get you. I am ok with it when there are extenuating circumstances. The only problem with that is that all the sudden everyone who wants an abortion will suddenly come down with extenuating circumstances.

reply posted on 7-5-2009 @ 02:36 PM by NGNM85

Originally posted by justsomeboreddude
reply to post by NGNM85

Just to let you know. I have not brought up Christianity in support of this discussion. I would prefer it not get into the religous aspects. Thanks for sharing your opinion.

I appreciate you're diplomacy, but if you take religion out of the equation there is no argument against abortion.

reply posted on 7-5-2009 @ 02:38 PM by cautiouslypessimistic

Originally posted by justsomeboreddude

Originally posted by cautiouslypessimistic

Originally posted by justsomeboreddude
reply to post by cautiouslypessimistic

I am not sure that it is scientific fact to say a human fetus is not going to become a baby under normal circumstances, barring any complications. Is a human fetus going to become a baby under normal circumstances or not?

[edit on 7-5-2009 by justsomeboreddude]

Either you are a troll, or you arent very bright. I am not tryinig to be rude, but come on. I didnt say that a fetus wouldnt become a baby. I said it was scientific fact that a zygote or an embryo is not a living thing, and is definitely not a human being.

THIS IS FACT. Not a matter of opinion.

Women have had extremely premature babies that have lived to become normal people. These premature babies were born within the range for what is acceptable for abortion.

I dont think I said an embryo was life. I said an embryo will become a life given the things it needs. I guess a baby is not life,because if you stop feeding it or giving it air its going to die. It cant sustain life on its own.

Back to the sensationalist propaganda I see.

Knew i shoulda stayed away.

reply posted on 7-5-2009 @ 02:41 PM by nasdack24k

reply to post by justsomeboreddude

I know for a lot of people its financial reasons.
I've never been in the situation, but I would probably suggest to my partner an abortion at this point in my life, because I believe that If I had a child now, their quality of life would not be very good. I would rather make sure I can provide a quality life before I drag someone into it. (See Ecclesiastes 4).

Also, I don't believe an embryo has a soul, as I believe when we take our first breath we inhale the word of god, and that's where the soul sprouts from.

No I am not a christian.

reply posted on 7-5-2009 @ 02:50 PM by Aldolas

reply to post by justsomeboreddude

Fair comment...

But then keep it legal and make it difficult enough to deter, but easy enough for those who really need it.

I'm sure I said I didn't want to be on this thread... But it's quite civil ATM. Gotta go to bed, so I'll see if you reply tomorrow.

CYa,
Samuel

reply posted on 7-5-2009 @ 02:52 PM by justsomeboreddude

reply to post by Aldolas

Have a good night. I try to keep it civil. Though sometimes I am not and then I have to be mad at myself for acting like a 5 yr old.

reply posted on 7-5-2009 @ 02:56 PM by justsomeboreddude

reply to post by nasdack24k

Welll all I can say is good luck. I dont know your circumstances but quality of life is relative. Having traveled a bit I realized that some of the best happiest people live in the poor parts of third world society. Maybe its us westerners who have a bad quality of life in some respects.