College IS for everyone, page 2

privacy

Pages: << 1 2 3 >>
ATS Members have flagged this thread 1 times

reply posted on 7-5-2009 @ 03:06 AM by Astyanax

Too many people go to college already.

Filling the demand for higher educational qualifications is a lucrative business. Colleges, like everyone else, would like to make as much money as possible, so they offer undemanding, broad-based 'degrees' in things like business management, marketing, catering and other subjects that do not require much intelligence to become conversant with. Universities bulk up their liberal-arts faculties with dumbed-down 'consolation degrees', easily identified as such because they're usually 'studies' of some kind (film studies, media studies, gender studies, etc.) They run various other dodges and scams as well, the most successful of which, at least until the current financial crisis, was the MBA.

People who really should be learning a craft skill or contributing to the workforce instead obtain these useless degrees and enter society thinking they qualify as educated in the same way someone who studied art or science or philosophy does. Invariably they cannot open their mouths without proving otherwise.

Does this matter? I confess I am an elitist but am I, also, just being a snob?

Well, I believe it matters. These Potemkin degrees devalue higher education, in particular the institutions awarding them. Worse, they are an insult to those who have aspired and struggled towards real academic achievement, and who in the past saw their hard work and achievement honoured by a qualification that really meant something, and commanded respect because it did.

Worst of all, the degrees-for-cash business model create a race to the bottom in terms of academic standards as each college competes with the next to offer ever dumber degrees to poor suckers who think they're getting something of value out of it. Who suffers? In the first place, the young. In the second, society, enterprise and government.

'Degrees for all' is just the herd mentality at work. Or maybe 'flock' is a better word: in a world of sheep, everyone boasts a degree - in bleating.

[edit on 7/5/09 by Astyanax]

reply posted on 7-5-2009 @ 03:22 AM by spellbound

reply posted on 7-5-2009 @ 04:09 AM by Merigold

happy with what they have and don't want to expand their knowledge, and understanding...

You don't need college to do that. College isn't for everyone and should be reserved for true acedemic subjects, not useless "media" degrees. We've come to the point where people think college is amust to be a success in life and that just isn't true.

I attended college for three years - biggest waste of time ever - I had a grant that paid for a lot, my parents helped and I worked, but mostly I partied - College is just an excuse for young people to prolong their adolesence further.

If you want to go to college, fine. But please don't judge people who choose not to be part of society's perpetual hamster wheel as " not wanting to expand their knowledge".

reply posted on 7-5-2009 @ 10:19 PM by they see ALL

Originally posted by bl4ke360
Because unlike high school, college costs a lot of money, and if everyone were to attend college, there would have to be about double the amount colleges than we currently have. I don't see this happening.

Like I said, I am ignoring economic reasons. And what's wrong with more colleges?

Originally posted by Charlotte313
I agree.

Thanks!

Education should be lifelong. I raised my family; my son starts college next year. I was going to school when I came up pregnant..and regretfully put my own education on hold. I started back--last year.

Good luck to everyone!

You spend some time on a campus and it seems so obvious--everybody should be in school.

Yeah, at least for a four-year period in college.

Originally posted by chapter29
"Forced"..? Holy ignorance...

Don't read too much into that, it's just a word.

And you have a 'writer' tag..?

What's with the insults? I must be right.

What about the individual that works with their hands..? Say a Contractor, Mechanic, Crane Operator...

They should go just to learn. What's wrong with that? Or, at least, make them go to a trade school.

And your garbageman example lacks rationale...

Why?

BTW - you should attend college...you may take a class that prevents this mentality...

I'm in one right now.

Originally posted by baseball101
i completely agree with you, and as you said in your OP i think the main motivator is economic issues ... another is a lack of motivation, some people are happy with what they have and don't want to expand their knowledge, and understanding...

Thanks for agreeing! Lack of motivation is a big issue too.

Originally posted by djon01
Just to clarify, do you consider trade schools, apprenticeships, etc. as college?

I didn't before, but I guess I will.

If not, then there are a lot of reasons. For one, college is expensive, and not everyone can afford it.

Like I said, I'm looking for reasons besides economic.

Some people have a career lined up without college

A career without college? Seems unlikely.

Some of the least educated and experienced people I know are college professors and the like, who, because of their continual education, don't have the world experience necessary to function in any other role now.

How are they teachers then?

Certain people, myself included, HATE the American school system and cannot/could not wait for high school to end so you can forge your own way in the world, and 2-8 more years of schooling is just a mental impossibility.

There's the problem. How is it an impossibility? That's crazy talk, sir!

Originally posted by mrwupy
College is an excellent step in these hard times. Times will get better and having a degree or sheepskin on the wall will help you make a better life for yourself and your family.

So why not make going to college the norm? Do you agree with my idea?

Originally posted by deadline527
I'm sorry, but I do not have to spend thousands upon thousands of dollars a year to further my education.

I'm not concerned with economic reasons.

Knowledge does not cost money.

Sadly it does in this world (well, throughout history), but I am not saying it does.

Most people by the age of eighteen have a solid idea of what direction they are going in life. Many of the directions do not require college.

Really? Aren't most people, when they first enter college, undeclared majors?

And lastly, I strongly think that people who cannot afford college should have more options to help them achieve their goals.

I agree.

Originally posted by crmanager
SO...by your thinking people should spend $40,000 "Looking at courses."

No.

Originally posted by TheAgentNineteen
If everyone attended and received a Collegiate Level education, then what advantages would Academic Degrees emanating therefrom serve?

Yeah, that's the only problem.

Originally posted by Mr Headshot
School really isn't for everyone, and if everyone DID attend college, OP, do you have any idea how useless any degree would be? A degree would become a high school diploma all over again.

Yeah, but then we would have to find other ways of rewarding college graduates. Maybe give them better pay based on their grades or better pay if certain jobs are needed more than others. This seems fair. The former is actually rewarding hard work, which is always good.

Originally posted by Astyanax
Too many people go to college already.

What's wrong with that?

They run various other dodges and scams as well, the most successful of which, at least until the current financial crisis, was the MBA.

How is the MBA a scam?

People who really should be learning a craft skill or contributing to the workforce instead obtain these useless degrees and enter society thinking they qualify as educated in the same way someone who studied art or science or philosophy does.

Some people don't want to work in factories or wherever people with craft skills work.

Originally posted by Merigold
College isn't for everyone and should be reserved for true acedemic subjects, not useless "media" degrees.

College is for everyone. I do agree that the system has to be changed, though.

We've come to the point where people think college is amust to be a success in life and that just isn't true.

Maybe it's not, but it helps.

College is just an excuse for young people to prolong their adolesence further.

That's a gross generalization. Don't make such claims based on what you did.

reply posted on 9-5-2009 @ 05:33 PM by FritosBBQTwist

There is something called high school.

College is for those with the intelligence in various subjects that could propel themselves to do something that others can not.

Everyone should not go to college.

Lets go over the various reasons...

1. Like others said, more demand, more money, for those that do.
2. All of the drop outs that waste time and money.
3. To much money to start out with (unless a community college, but the next reason will say why that is bad).
4. The standards would drop like a bomb.

Not everyone thinks learning is fun. Be grateful that you have the gift, but also be realistic and see that there are people who just do not care about college.

Forcing people to go is ludicrous also. In my initial sentence, I stated that high school exists for that reason. And for all of those kids who can not do simple pre-calculus problems, or take a physics test, you want them going on to college for even more advanced subjects?

There are many jobs out there that pay very well without college degrees (for what they are), and there are those that don't. But wasting time, trying to make an idiot do something great will not get you far.

edit - That part of the post is a realist point of view.

I wish everyone enjoyed learning. College can be a great experience (not even there yet myself...), full of many chances at expanding your brain. You are asking for something that is impossible; that everyone was like yourself. That everyone see the benefits of learning more and expanding their horizons.

Its wishful thinking, and not "bad thinking". All I ask for is for everyone who does not, to get a job, but even then that is asking for to much. So I am just going to go on with my own life and try to do something good for myself.

Before college, we should revamp all the public schools in this country. Or at least the ones by me...

[edit on 9-5-2009 by FritosBBQTwist]

reply posted on 9-5-2009 @ 05:42 PM by FritosBBQTwist

Originally posted by Merigold

happy with what they have and don't want to expand their knowledge, and understanding...

You don't need college to do that. College isn't for everyone and should be reserved for true acedemic subjects, not useless "media" degrees. We've come to the point where people think college is amust to be a success in life and that just isn't true.

I attended college for three years - biggest waste of time ever - I had a grant that paid for a lot, my parents helped and I worked, but mostly I partied - College is just an excuse for young people to prolong their adolesence further.

If you want to go to college, fine. But please don't judge people who choose not to be part of society's perpetual hamster wheel as " not wanting to expand their knowledge".

Going to college for a major in basket weaving will not do much. When I go, I am making sure that my major is one with advanced courses that actually teach me something.

College offers a new atmosphere, and more job opportunities. While it can teach you many advanced subjects (High level calculus, management skills, co-op, internships, and any engineering course), it is also a process of weaving out the smart ones from the better ones. Companies would have a rough time interviewing every person that sent in an application, because if that were the case, it would be the best writer/speaker that would get hired, and not necessarily the best worker.

THAT is why it can be good. It is not for everyone.

reply posted on 9-5-2009 @ 05:46 PM by OhZone

If our education system was really interested in educating our young people they would separate them by their ability to learn.
It is totally insane to pace the studies to the slowest learner.

That would leave the fast learners with 8 to 10 years to finish high school (12 grades done into 8 to 10).
The remaining 2 to 4 years could be used to teach them whatever they would have done in thos 2 to 4 years of college, and it could be a part of the free public education system.

reply posted on 9-5-2009 @ 05:55 PM by Helig

College should remain optional, any time you force things its a bad deal. Encourage all you want but force my hand I will likely bite yours. I still to this day contend that going to college was the biggest waste of time in my life; I turned down at least two jobs which would have served me better than any paper from the Turnpike Tech I was attending for a toilet paper degree (see also Associates) in computer science to get my foot in the door. Ended up dropping out when I needed a full time job to survive and now I work in IT despite my lack of backing paper and have no intentions of wasting any more time in a college when I can be out making money and getting experience (which almost always trumps paper).

reply posted on 9-5-2009 @ 06:03 PM by ravenshadow13

Because college costs about $46 thousand dollars a year, if you go to a reputable private institution.

*shrug*
That's a lot of money. Not everyone gets financial aid.

I have to go, because my career will be in scientific research, specifically field work.
You can't just do that without a degree and background, and a lot of hard work.

I picked my courses today. I'm going to be working my butt off next year.
If anyone thinks otherwise, that's a joke.

[edit on 5/9/2009 by ravenshadow13]

reply posted on 9-5-2009 @ 06:15 PM by wisefoolishness

I start my college education this fall, at a rather big and normally expensive school. I got lucky enough to happen across a scholarship that is going to pay for all of my expenses, otherwise I would probably be screwed. We're talking upwards of $40,000 total.

I agree that almost everyone should take up some kind of specialty schooling, whether it be a technical school for mechanics (et c), or a normal university like the one I will be attending.

But the price of schooling these days is ridiculous. Plus, everyone has their own little niche in society. Someone has to flip burgers, someone has to stock shelves, someone has to ring up your items at a store, and if it takes some kind of extra schooling to figure out how to do that stuff, you probably shouldn't be working anyway.

And one more thing that I would like to share. There's so much stress between finishing up high school, and starting off college. Between deciding where you want to go, how you are going to pay for it, where you are going to stay, what you want to do, and a lot of other factors, some people just won't be able to handle it. That's a lot of pressure for a younger person to deal with in a short amount of time.

reply posted on 9-5-2009 @ 06:28 PM by mostlyspoons

There is great pressure in college, in my experience, to conform to what's considered proper, what's accepted by the norm. I was a graphic design student, and after 2 years I realised it wasn't for me. Graphic design is a labor of deception and manipulation of the visual. For me, some of the later design aspects of marketing, advertising, and the guiding of the eye on the subconscious level we were getting into conflicted with my moral beliefs. In the end, it wasn't about my artistic ability, but my willingness to conform to the views of my proffessors.

So I don't know if I agree that college is for everyone, but I think everyone should at least give furthering your education and bettering yourself a try.

reply posted on 10-5-2009 @ 11:56 AM by cmazzagatti

Originally posted by Charlotte313
I agree. Education should be lifelong. I raised my family; my son starts college next year. I was going to school when I came up pregnant..and regretfully put my own education on hold. I started back--last year.

You spend some time on a campus and it seems so obvious--everybody should be in school.

I agree, but there's only one problem -- the education you receive in college is a far stretch from the truth.

reply posted on 11-5-2009 @ 03:08 AM by l_e_cox

reply to post by they see ALL

Dear they_see_ALL,

You have a very interesting concept of what higher education means in a society. I get the impression from your post that what you are really trying to say is that in this day and age, a person who is not well-educated can find themselves at a distinct disadvantage. That to "keep the playing field level" you might say, you'd have to have a society populated by people who all have the equivalent of what some people think of as a "college education."

However, to take that as an ideal scene and tell me that you are going to achieve it by extending free public education to the college level is a suggestion that I would seriously challenge.

The other posters have expressed some of the most obvious objections to this solution far better than I could. To summarize:

1. Some people just can't stand to be out of the workforce until they are 20 or older. Keeping people in school can be viewed to the equivalent of preventing them from contributing to society. Enforced non-contribution has been observed to lead to criminal behavior.

2. Some people are very able to learn on their own, and feel much more in control of their own lives by learning that way.

3. I challenge ATS members to think of one or two individuals who they feel have been major contributors to science or culture in any time since universities have existed. How much college education did they have?
There is a whole debate that has been ongoing at least as long as I have been alive (50-odd years) that current and past educational systems and methods are not necessarily producing the results that all of us hope or see as desirable. Some have even accused modern education as being destructive. There are a lot of statistics out there to support that argument. Maybe the current system has some very major flaws in it. Maybe the people who pushed hardest for compulsory public education had some agendas they weren't telling us about. This is a serious topic.

4. There are many workable alternatives to compulsory public education, especially for individuals who are old enough to work, or really want to work. There are many companies, for example, that can, and do, train their own technical specialists by using apprenticeships and even formal training. To a great extent, one important result of education must be effective doingness. You can only get that from practical experience in the real world.

5. It is clear enough to me, if not to anyone who has taken a good look at this subject, that the basics of education, or learning, are not even well understood by the people who consider themselves "experts" in the subject. What causes, for example, the wide variation in IQ (or whatever they call it these days) that you see in children? You find some "kids" who can study and reason near adult level, while others never learn some basics, like math or effective writing, after years of schooling. There is even data out there now that explains this, and technology developed to make almost anyone a lot smarter. This technology is largely ignored by the "experts."

So you see, most people would take issue with your suggestion for one or more of the above reasons, and I think they are totally correct to do so. The current educational system has not proven itself in my mind. So why subject the population to more of it? What we need is more effective educational methods. Why shouldn't any person be totally ready to enter the work force at the point that they are physically able to do so, and with the "equivalent" of a Ph.D. in several major areas of academic knowledge? That's the kind of result that a reall modern educational system should be able to produce!

reply posted on 11-5-2009 @ 03:42 AM by Marshall Ormus

reply to post by they see ALL

If your paying and I absolutely have to, then I will enter a academic or heavy theory based course. But I will not turn up to lectures, I will not do any work I don't like the sound or look of and I will spend whatever time I need furthering my vocational/ applied understanding by taking a class in what I want where I want. I have learned from experience (several years worth) that Academic subjects/ courses and myself DO NOT mix.

But if you really want to improve the prospects of your fellow human beings then perhaps look at the educational system of Finland. I say Finland as they are one of the few countries consistantly scoring highly internationally in education and literacy..etc

From 16 years of age onwards you have two choice routes Academic or Vocation. This two choice option is carried on all the way up to Masters level, after that only Licentiate and Doctorates don't have a straight up vocational version as the vocational route then focuses entirely on employment experience.

Now if it was a heavily vocational course, in a subject that I like/ want to do then I'd go there without complaining or wrecking it for whoever is sending me there.

reply posted on 11-5-2009 @ 04:52 AM by Merigold