Rasberries, Rum and Evolution, page 1

Infrared spectroscopy has confirmed the existence of ethyl formate (amongst other chemicals) in deep space. Ethyl formate gives raspberries their distinct flavour, and also smells like rum.

A raspberry flavoured galactic centre with a hint of rum
(This link is from a renowned scientific resource site.)

Considering the existence of a vast array of complex molecules being confirmed in space, would it be outrageous to suggest that perhaps many fruits, animals etc did not evolve their flavours as we think, but simply adopted what was already available in the atmosphere?

To quote from the link:

"If these molecules are detected, it implies that the molecules necessary for life on Earth (or planets in other stellar systems) are formed at a very early stage, before those planets have even formed. This means that newly formed planets may be "seeded" for life, with these prebiotic molecules already present. It would then be a very much shorter step from the formation of a planet to the inception of life on its surface."

[edit on 6/5/2009 by Saurus]

super cool post.

i had read elsewhere a year or so ago, about a Square Shaped Nebula and Saturn's Hexagon which are geometric shapes floating around in space. so things can align themselves into any pattern in the interstellar medium, given the right energies and materials found.

this is interesting. reminds me of the article about the astronauts who say Space has a Smell.

S&F for showing my next vacation destination!!

reply to post by Astyanax

---

I think you may be right.

Still, if complex molecules can form in deep space, where the resources for their synthesis are few and far between, then I would suggest that the spontaneous synthesis of complex molecules on a planet's atmosphere would be much more likely.

As far as I'm aware, our current evolution theory suggests that simple molecules are formed first, and that living creatures synthesize more complex molecules from the simple ones.

If complex molecules are formed spontaneously, we could skip a few steps in the evolution process.

At the very least, the spontaneous formation of complex molecules is one extra piece of evidence for evolutionary theory.

(Unless of course, we were right in the first place, in saying that complex molecules must be formed by living creatures, which would imply the existence of life in deep space.)

reply to post by Saurus

---

The molecules are not especially complex. Ethanol is a two carbon compound and formic acid is a one carbon compound. Esterification is a likely outcome of propinquity. Plants making the same simple molecules would produce similar esters and the fact that they may occur in space has little to do with their synthesis on earth.
BTW, the author misunderstands the naming system and assumes that butyronitrile [incorrectly referred to as "propyl cyanide"] is similar in toxicity to cyanide ion. While it will not do a body good, it s not nearly as toxic as cyanide salts.

Originally posted by pteridine
reply to post by Saurus

---

The molecules are not especially complex. Ethanol is a two carbon compound and formic acid is a one carbon compound. Esterification is a likely outcome of propinquity. Plants making the same simple molecules would produce similar esters and the fact that they may occur in space has little to do with their synthesis on earth.
BTW, the author misunderstands the naming system and assumes that butyronitrile [incorrectly referred to as "propyl cyanide"] is similar in toxicity to cyanide ion. While it will not do a body good, it s not nearly as toxic as cyanide salts.

I agree with you about the toxicity of butyronitrile.

However, I think the synthesis of the ester in deep space is still remarkable for the following reason...

For the ester to form, certain conditions are needed:
- The molecules (ethanol and formic acid) must collide.
- The molecules must collide with the correct orientation.
- The molecules must collide with sufficient energy for the reaction to occur.

Statistically, the chance of all these conditions being met is small with low concentrations of the reactants, and for them to be met enough times to create a high enough concentration of the ester to detect it on earth would imply a massive concentration of both ethanol and formic acid.

So what causes these high concentrations? Life, maybe?

[edit on 9/5/2009 by Saurus]

reply to post by Saurus

---

The rate of a chemical reaction is a function of concentration or partial pressure and a rate constant. Given that gas clouds may be irradiated by energetic EM for billions of years, the chances that the collisions will meet the conditions in your post greatly improve.
One way to test this would be to look for other products of reaction between simple molecules if they could be readily detected by spectrometers on/near earth. The nice thing about esters is the strong carbonyl band in the IR. Detecting things like formaldehyde is easier than detecting its hemiacetal with ethanol, for example. Follow-on compounds in a chemical aufbau process would be in even lower concentrations and may be masked by the simpler compounds.

reply to post by Saurus

---

Hard UV generates free radicals and would likely be an important driving force for chemical reactions along those pathways. There would be many reactions occurring in parallel.

reply to post by Saurus

---

So what causes these high concentrations? Life, maybe?

I wonder whether anyone on ATS - or in the world - is qualified to estimate what the concentration of alcohol and formic acid should be, given the rate of EM infall at an 'average' location inside a dust cloud. Do the necessary data even exist? Any astrophysicists on board this space schooner who can tell us?

I rather hope not, Saurus, because this idea of yours is utterly charming and would make a wonderful basis for a science-fiction story (of the old Analog or hard-science-fiction school). Perhaps Gregory Benford could write it.

Or maybe I will. Gosh, think of all the different ways to approach it. The producers of the esters - what would they be like? And the products - what is their function? And could they be desirable to man? Useful in some way a writer could hang a plot on?

And by the way, I can see (just about) why this is in O&C Conspiracy, but I reckon it would do better on Space Exploration. Then again, this forum probably gets more views...

reply to post by Saurus

---

Remember that even though we have low fugacities we have billions of years for reactions to occur.

Microwave radiation is equivalent to rotational energies of molecules so it may not contribute much to the activation energy of reaction.

Ex-Vatican Translator, Mauro Biglino\'s Alternative Creation/Translation Theory
  Posted 9 days ago with 40 member flags

EVOLUTION - Did YOU Know?
  Posted 16 days ago with 24 member flags

"I was raised an atheist"- Professor František Vyskočil
  Posted 6 days ago with 6 member flags

Evolution. Not a theory, but a fact!
  Posted 18 days ago with 4 member flags

Evolutionary theory: Gaps and not yet understood phenonemon
  Posted 17 days ago with 3 member flags

Radical Theory Explains the Origin, Evolution, and Nature of Life, Challenges Conventional Wisdom
  Posted 14 days ago with 3 member flags

Please be more specific about which type of creationist you\'re speaking of...
  Posted 14 days ago with 2 member flags

Proof that the pharoes did not build the pyramids, so who did FIND OUT HERE
  Posted 13 days ago with 2 member flags

Newest topics, updated in real-time:

Newest topics getting flags, in real-time:

Newest topics getting replies, in real-time: