Perceptions, Reality, Imagination

reply to post by cindymars


This is all about priorities and trust.

Reality, as in the harsh, beautiful, often frustratingly idiotic, simplistic and horrendously complicated snare of beliefs and cultures we have created that compromises the material world, cannot be disregarded. This globe is every individual’s anchor; a solid foundation that allows the beginnings of a search for other realities.

What worries me is the profusion of folks who cannot wait to escape this particular existence. Heck, the world and a lot of people in it aren’t perfect, but until an Asimov-sized revelatory event happens, one that’ll forcibly change our perceptions of just what and where we are with undeniable power, this world and the people on it are all we’ve got. It’s home. We keep forgetting that.

Until that time, that defining moment, we’ll continue to philosophize on things that are intangible, prevaricate about what may come, assume that private enlightenment is meant for all, announce prophecies of doom and gloom, and promote new techniques that’ll allegedly allow us all to experience a spiritual alternative to life.

It is becoming uncomfortably obvious that the truth, however we define it, really is individual, and not only that, but also pertinent to the particular epoch it came into being.

It’s what works for you, now.

It might also work for me, then again it might not. And it’s my choice to accept part of it, the whole thing, or dismiss it as I see fit. No malice, no hard feelings (unless your belief is forced upon me in any way. Then we have a problem), and no repercussions apart from a little intellectual contention.

However, it’s the insistence that a belief system – an explanation for reality - is inherently correct, and that others must, therefore, be wrong, that continues to hinder genuine progress. We base our cultures and laws and behaviour, on what are, at the end of the day, simply Man’s erudite attempts at deciphering just what we are, and where we’ve come from. Educated guesses have shaped our understanding of what reality is now.

Science can reason intuitively on the physical workings of existence, and then either prove true or false their theories by experimentation. Spirituality, and the nature of reality, are both disciplines that have no tangible characteristics. Their study, and their present level of understanding are, as yet, hypothetical.

That may seem an inconsiderate stance to those of a religious persuasion, even to those of an atheistic leaning, but until something more than words are presented, even if they do come from learned and erudite minds, then words and theories are all they are. Yet, still we believe them, because we need to.

The Bible will have as much an impact on one individual’s life as Star Trek will on another’s.

We prioritize our beliefs according to what fits our individual convictions.

Are we all right, or all wrong, or somewhere in between? Well, that’s not mine to answer, but I can offer an opinion; everything is real, in some way or another. All we’ve every theorized over, created fictionally, held true to our hearts, lied fought and died over are all, somehow, true.

If they weren’t, why do they stir our hearts so?

And the answer to that, I think, is to accept that everything that genuinely stimulates a single human mind to seek the truth about reality, materiality, spirituality, is in truth part of a single, unified whole.

That whole is so incalculably immense in concept that some simply find it too big to comprehend and happily allow others do the searching. It’s those others that perceive divisions of this whole from individual perspectives; their own place in the universe. We therefore speculate, personally or vicariously, solely on one fraction at a time. Billions of observations, billions of viewpoints.

As I say, just my opinion. And only words, at that.

If truth is merely a matter of perception, then there is no truth.

Is this what you believe, OP? That there is no truth?

Originally posted by Astyanax
If truth is merely a matter of perception, then there is no truth.

Could you please clarify what you mean by this? I'm not sure if you're presenting this as an absolute statement, or whether it is implying something less explicit.

Taking it as an absolute statement, does it not simply follow that:

if truth = perception
then perception = truth?

Or is the key here in the use of the words 'a matter of'? Is there an expansion to this?

reply to post by nenothtu


edit to edit and dust to dust, a winds-a-cummen and who's to trust?
It should be an interesting Hurricane season. I understand there will be one right on schedule give or take for the real time atmospheric conditions.

This could be in the 'imagine' area though sometimes the image has a blue-print. It's amazing what they've accomplished down under and quite the $$pro--ject$$& though Nature always seems to bring order back into the equation. A fuse in wait of a spark. Feeling the friction; you too? Any day now; our choice.

Anyone have a corkscrew around? If someone doesn't stop shaking the bottle, it's gonna blow. pOpp. I think the dollar is next though I could be wrong. Unfortunately, I don't wager, except for a freindly game of BlackJack21. One question, who's the 'dealer' and who's his boss? Never can seem to get a straight answer. I figured after 35 casinos, I'd find some answers though they all seem to wear masks. Well, think I'll stop right there and let the 'imagination' get the better of me?


[edit on 6-5-2009 by Perseus Apex]

reply to post by nenothtu


How many colors in the light spectrum are there? How many can we see with our rod/cone vision?

Question is, how does one with no sight, no hearing, no sense nor taste or touch know/discover what is 'real' about them? Is this not proof of something 'other' going on this picture? Who could it be; your neighbor?

Back to topic, here's more:
Photons in space and the wavelength 'idea'.

[edit on 6-5-2009 by Perseus Apex]

"I believe that I am a multi-dimensional being, that time is not linear, “The Matrix” might be real, the gods in all ancient text are aliens but I do not know and neither do you, it is speculative and perceptual. So believe whatever you want!"

I relate to that. Just want to add - there is no time, there is no death, no salvation, no hell or heaven - those are constructs created by humans.

Originally posted by spartacus mills

Originally posted by Astyanax
If truth is merely a matter of perception, then there is no truth.

Could you please clarify what you mean by this? I'm not sure if you're presenting this as an absolute statement, or whether it is implying something less explicit.

Taking it as an absolute statement, does it not simply follow that:

if truth = perception
then perception = truth?

Or is the key here in the use of the words 'a matter of'? Is there an expansion to this?

I think what was meant is - the truth has no meaning

I put forth a thread a while back called who am I when I dream?

You may find it interesting, I'll try and find the link.

Oh, S+F for a good topic.

Edit Link: www.abovetopsecret.com...

[edit on 6-5-2009 by n1zzzn]

Accidental double post.
Please delete.

[edit on 6-5-2009 by n1zzzn]

Originally posted by FIFIGII think what was meant is - the truth has no meaning

Thanks. That's maybe what he meant. But if so, is it necessarily the case that a lack of meaning negates the validity of the truth itself?

Is it absolutely necessary that truth, if there is such a thing, has to have any meaning at all?

Perception is a mirror not a fact and what I look on is my state of mind reflected outward.

Originally posted by cindymars
Therefore to me dreams are not just mere, they are experiences.

This is something that really interests me. I recall reading somewhere (although this info could be wrong, please correct me if so) that the brain processes experiential information in dreams in the exact same way that it does in so-called 'reality'. For example, if I had a dream of throwing a ball against a wall, all of the perceptual sensations of that experience (the feel of the ball in my hand, the vision of the ball and the wall etc) would be processed by the brain in the exact same way as if I was performing that task in real life.

If this is indeed the case, then I can't see how anyone can claim with any logical validity that 'reality' is somehow more valid than our dreams.

Perhaps someone knows a definitive way of proving the difference?

reply to post by Taxi4Time


at least someone gets it : )))))

You see.. this is the point here i made it befor

The universe when you look at the sky is a physical representation of your mind

does your mind have a shape ? does the universe ?

very big clue don't you think?

please read my threads i am here to show you the reason WHY we ask.


its alllll about us lot getting to grips with our function WE my friends ARE the very thing we are exploring

you want to expand your mind your spirit ? look no further than the sky because that is YOUR MIND

enjoy it

; )) i was told this when i died in my sleep "no flashy lights by the way or tunnels"

but it was epic lol

Originally posted by spartacus mills

Originally posted by FIFIGII think what was meant is - the truth has no meaning

Thanks. That's maybe what he meant. But if so, is it necessarily the case that a lack of meaning negates the validity of the truth itself?

I'm highly confident that statement does not mean that.

Originally posted by Astyanax
If truth is merely a matter of perception, then there is no truth.

Is this what you believe, OP? That there is no truth?

This statement means that if truth is created only by perception then objective truth does not exist.

If truth can be changed by your perceptions then it is not objective.

Objective truth is something that is true no matter what your perception of something is.

I believe objective truth and truth are the same thing as you cannot have mutually exclusive truths.

For example subjective truth would allow this impossible illogical scenario

Person A: Believes 2+2=4

Person B: Believes 2+2=5

Therefore reality is that 2+2=4 and 2+2 also equals 5

Both of these cannot be true at the same time. Therefore I believe subjective truth to be false.

Objective truth states that no matter what you may believe truth exists.

So

Person A: Believes 2+2=4

Person B: Believes 2+2=5

Reality: 2+2=4

Objective truth allows people to be wrong. It is also is more logical when applied to scientific concepts.

Therefore I believe subjective truth does not exist and that objective truth does exist. The definition of truth shows that objective truth can simply be called truth.

truth
   /truθ/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [trooth] Show IPA ,
–noun, plural truths  /truðz, truθs/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [troothz, trooths] Show IPA .
1. the true or actual state of a matter: He tried to find out the truth.
2. conformity with fact or reality; verity: the truth of a statement.
3. a verified or indisputable fact, proposition, principle, or the like: mathematical truths.
4. the state or character of being true.
5. actuality or actual existence.
6. an obvious or accepted fact; truism; platitude.
7. honesty; integrity; truthfulness.
8. (often initial capital letter) ideal or fundamental reality apart from and transcending perceived experience: the basic truths of life.
9. agreement with a standard or original.
10. accuracy, as of position or adjustment.
11. Archaic. fidelity or constancy.

Source

Originally posted by spartacus mills
Is it absolutely necessary that truth, if there is such a thing, has to have any meaning at all?

Without applying meaning to a word why have the word at all?


[edit on 6-5-2009 by Studious]

[edit on 6-5-2009 by Studious]

reply to post by Studious


I was in fact insult when i used the very sig that was used in 1984..

you see WE "for me" are the reason for the mathematical equation and can not leave us out of it...

do you know what happens in math when you add +1 to P.I? it no longer is P.I and why is that?

we include the observer

when i was a kid doing mathematics the teacher in my class said that was wrong but i said sir .. am i not the one doing the calculation? he said no it does not work that way??

understand something WE us lot are the people who calculate.. so therefor we know every answer to every question...

what question do you wish to ask? is it a choice? what happens when you deiced that is the right choice?

shall i be objective and apply mathematics to objects? yes you can.. but to understand why it is in fact you are able to do so is the very apex of mathematics itself

There is our problem.. we never think WHO is doing the equation

clear your mind and look in the mirror YOU are an equation of the universe..

it helps if you wish to understand why you said 1 apple + 1 apple means 2 apples

get my point?

1+1=3 ALWAYS

EDIT: Ah my mistake

[edit on 6-5-2009 by Studious]

Reminds me allot, of when we are born. I am just wondering how long it took humans in the past to get past this trivia. How long do you think we sat under the stars just trying to figure it all out? When did we come to a point where the majority of us, just stopped trying to figure it out. Most walk and talk in reality now more or less just reveling in it. Technically their is nothing wrong with this. I to think that having a belief no matter how odd, or unbelievable to others it is healthy. I would recommend a belief that is good, as for me I like the Jesus, stories I know that's a societal default belief for many, but man, why wouldn't you wanna just try to be good, and nice to people and try to do good for humanity. Just look at how Rome, was before christian values.

Anyhow, as far as dreams, we can't explain them. As far as death we dunno, what happens except for the fact the energy in your body stops running your body. Ahem Energy is complex, it just does not die, it goes somewhere else. That we can prove. Just don't know where it goes.

The more intelligence or the more sensitive someone is, the more they can perceive reality, thats when our beliefs start to manifest within our minds. As far as truth, I can say I see a glass of water sitting in front of me on my table, Someone else can look at the glass from a different perspective and see the table sitting on the glass. This could be a possibility in the scheme of things, Mathematically in a sense of measuring this reality time and space etc. is still growing the numbers in the equation, which in term makes and is making itself more complex, under those rules for order under the constriction of the complexity will create further leaps in bounds in our beliefs its a progression. I dunno what I believe I think keeping things as simple as possible, and maintaining happiness and joy among those that are your friends and loved ones is whats most important, and try to have a good belief. Also don't judge. I have learned most people deep down inside are good, they just get misunderstood most times.. Our perceptions without understanding is not perception, it is observation, the more we understand, within our reality ironically does not make things simpler it complicates things, this is all relative. All of it. It is progress, just as we try to understand things so do others it is an instinct that I suppose eventually brings us back to the beginning, if we can take the stress, and not destroy ourselves. I dunno.. Thats why I am here.. I dunno..

good thread op.

Originally posted by spartacus mills
This is something that really interests me. I recall reading somewhere (although this info could be wrong, please correct me if so) that the brain processes experiential information in dreams in the exact same way that it does in so-called 'reality'. For example, if I had a dream of throwing a ball against a wall, all of the perceptual sensations of that experience (the feel of the ball in my hand, the vision of the ball and the wall etc) would be processed by the brain in the exact same way as if I was performing that task in real life.

If this is indeed the case, then I can't see how anyone can claim with any logical validity that 'reality' is somehow more valid than our dreams.

Perhaps someone knows a definitive way of proving the difference?

Excellent Post. Mirror neuron’s cause this reaction in the brain.

A mirror neuron is a neuron which fires both when an animal acts and when the animal observes the same action performed by another animal (especially by another animal of the same species).[1] Thus, the neuron "mirrors" the behavior of another animal, as though the observer were itself acting.

Mirror Neurons


These neurons fire when observing so they “mirror” the actions of the whatever is being viewed. If I see someone throw a ball my mirror neurons would fire as if I had thrown the ball. I would argue that during a dream, because you see an image of the action taking place, thus mirror neurons fire.



[edit on 6-5-2009 by Studious]

[edit on 6-5-2009 by Studious]

reply to post by Studious


ahh studious !! i was not refering to u sir!!!

others i should have said insult(ed) sorry that was my mistake not yours !!!!

but i do understand the context to your post !! that was my bad spelling sir and sorry for misunderstanding


i liked your post i was trying to say others used it in a way i don't mm use it so to speak

once again sorry for any misunderstanding.



--------------------------------------------------------------

The numbers all come from were? YOU.. that is my point

--------------------------------------------------------------

To apply mathematics is on thing to understand YOU are the one doing it is another..

The world was flat because the person was looking at his feet.. try looking up.. it helps ; )

[edit on 6-5-2009 by symmetricAvenger]

[edit on 6-5-2009 by symmetricAvenger]

This is a great post. The issues of perception, reality and imagination are pretty much the substance of every topic and every post on ATS. However, this topic could easily snowball into something that might make the heads of even the most educated ATS visitors & regulars explode and I don't think that anyone wants to get brains on their keyboards and monitors. This may explain why we don't see a great number of replies but I am certain the original post is being read by a great number of people. My personal beliefs are varied in the sense that some are cluttered while others are specific.

I guess it is really about growing and maturing as a sentient being. As I have recently learned, my personal perception, reality, and imagination must be rooted in a very personal perspective. In other words, how are my mind, my soul, and my body responding to varying forms of stimulus? I personally try and lead a life according to Christ's teachings and at the same time fully respect every individuals pursuit of truth and inner peace. Below are ways how I try and focus my living energy:

• I want to keep my mind open and clear, ready to absorb knowledge.
  
• I want to maintain a loving heart towards God and my neighbor.
  
• I want to put into physical action the ability to help anyone in anyway I can to set a real world example.
  

I hope that anyone reading this will do all they can with their minds, hearts, and actions to provide loving kindness towards everyone that they can every chance that they get. On this little rock near the sun, each other is all we have.


Peace be with you all