GIs Told to Bring Afghans to Jesus

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


I appreciate the timely reply;however I am about to walk out the door to take my mother out for dinner (Mothers Day and all). I will respond to your post later on tonight hopefully. Until then I will leave you with two pieces of advice. In reading your post I realized that it would do you you some good to have a lesson in humility. Being that you have traveled far and wide I would have thought that you had come across that virtue. And that brings us to our second bit of advice. Remember the old saying about what happens when you assume. You were making quite a bit of assumptions.

Originally posted by lazy1981
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

I appreciate the timely reply;however I am about to walk out the door to take my mother out for dinner (Mothers Day and all). I will respond to your post later on tonight hopefully. Until then I will leave you with two pieces of advice. In reading your post I realized that it would do you you some good to have a lesson in humility. Being that you have traveled far and wide I would have thought that you had come across that virtue. And that brings us to our second bit of advice. Remember the old saying about what happens when you assume. You were making quite a bit of assumptions.

Enjoy that celebration my friend and best regards to all.

I have been on a nearly life long quest to learn humility, alas I might never accomplish that but you know what they say, if at first you don't succeed try, try again.

I appreciate your input.

Bon Apetite!

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Ok, I'm now full to the hilt of PoterHouse steake and Mashed taters. We can procede. Thanks for the well wishing, my mother says thanks (I'm at her house). She's also a memeber here so we talk about the threads that we post on.


Down to buisness.

I have been on a nearly life long quest to learn humility, alas I might never accomplish that but you know what they say, if at first you don't succeed try, try again.

We all have our lapses, I'm entirely positive of my guilt of committing the same offence.

So, let us begin.

That though is a singular perspective that does not first consider things like.
Military Doctrine...
Military Strategy...
Winning occupied people's hearts and minds...

I agree with you entirely. The point that I was attempting to drive home was not whether or not they had the correct idea or if this was going to aid in the military objectives at hand. And I most certainly am not advocating that this will in any way shape or form help us to win the "hearts and minds" (if you will) of the Afghani people.

Let me clear up another misunderstanding or assumption (which ever it may have been) before I proceed.

understand from where your ideals and principals come as an Evangelist, as a person of the Christian Faith.

I have to inform you once more that I have never made an attempt to Evangelize another person into my faith unless it was solicited by them. If a person asks what my beliefs are then I will tell them; furthermore if they pursue the question and ask about the specifics then I feel duty bound to bring the word of the LORD to them. It is my belief that it is neither my place to deny nor force-feed my religion to anyone. If you want to know I will share freely if not then live your life in which ever manner you chose so long as it does not affect me and mine. Not even GOD forced Himself upon the world, who am I to do it in HIS stead.

As far as the constitutions of the Afghani Nation and Israel are concerned, I cannot speak about them with any gravity on this matter. What I will say is that in Afghanistan the Taliban did not suffer an "infidel." So if a man was to show himself with a shaved face more or less proclaim that he believes not in "Allah" or the prophet Mohamed he would be readily put to death. Theses things are not a matter of dispute unless we are given to outright lies. Not to mention like minded punishments (namely for women) in Saudi Arabia.

www.ynetnews.com...

As far as Israel is concerned it would be my best estimation that since they are the center of the world (to Abrahamic Religions) it would be in the best interest of all that there is a live and let live attitude in that region. Most especially when you consider the problems between the Islamic Palestinians and Jewish Israelis.

That being said let us not believe that it is at all ok to be a "non-believer" in Israel if the religious Jews (or zealots) were in power in stead of the secular government that is currently in power and has been for some time. The Jewish people that adhere to their religion will tell you in heart beat that this is the word of GOD and would be carried out if they had the Theocracy that was once in power over Israel. I'll help you out since you aren't familiar with the first two of the Abrahamic Religions.

"The Torah"
Deuteronomy 13:6-11
6 “If your brother, the son of your mother, your son or your daughter, the wife of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, secretly entices you, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which you have not known, neither you nor your fathers, 7 of the gods of the people which are all around you, near to you or far off from you, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth, 8 you shall not consent to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him or conceal him; 9 but you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. 10 And you shall stone him with stones until he dies, because he sought to entice you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. 11 So all Israel shall hear and fear, and not again do such wickedness as this among you.

www.guardian.co.uk...

even though like you McDonald's and the Adult Entertainment Industry would love them too.

I believe I have already touched on the false supposition that I believe in Evangelism as a general religious ideal. So lets move on to the second issue of the broad assumptions. Or, "hasty generalizations" if you prefer.


So, I do not see how you came to the conclusion that it makes the least bit of difference to me if an Afghani ever eats at a McDonalds or otherwise. And I really don't care what they masturbate to (personally). I do care for all human beings on a general level as my religion and upbringing teaches me to. But as for the manner in which they "chose" to live is the least of my concerns. If they fancy stone aged living or have a different culture than I it matters not.

It's not their mission as Soldiers which first and foremost they are.

I agree, but I don't think that they allowed it to interfeer with their mission. To my mind their mission is to root out and destroy the Taliban and kill or capture "Al' CIADUHHHHH"

but I honestly have never had one single solitary occurence of a Muslim doing that to me personally in such a fashion, or every witnessed one doing so in such a fashion,

No, they never try to convert anyone.

Here, look at the recent converts page.
www.islamfortoday.com...
Or maybe you can take a look at the Dawah practices in Islam.
www.islamtomorrow.com...
Or the more organized attempts to spread it into Latin America.
www.latinodawah.org...



continue......................

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

honestly my friend I sincerely doubt you personally know anyone well of the Islamic faith to draw your personal conclusions from but simply a politically and religiously tainted view of Muslims in general that was brought to you through Medias, Orginizations and Mediums whose agenda was well served by teaching you that perception that I feel is very false and misleading and detrimental to anyone who holds it as the truth who has no first hand knowledge with a wide variety of people who share the Islamic faith which happens to be the largest numerical group of human beings on the planet that share it.

Assumption number????? I am a fifth generation Chicagoan. In this city we pride ourselves upon our vast wealth of races and cultures. I grew up on the north side of town were you have a high population of immigrants of Asian descent. I have gone to school with Muslims that range from Pakistani and Egyptian all the way to Indonesian and Palestinian. I have been thoroughly exposed to Islam and the vast spread of cultures that practice it. Furthermore, I am fairly well acquainted with the “basic” tenants of the religion.

Now I don’t know whether your assumptions are based upon some class distinction complex, my country of origin, or the fact that I come from a big city? Or maybe it is due to some bias that you hold towards Christians from a past experience? I truly do not know? But, a person that seemingly has such an intellect must know that assumptions only show us to be dim witted. You have somehow thought that it is within your ability to size up the entire substance and life history/experiences of a man due to a few of his ideals and opinions.

For the sake of being numerically correct, it is incorrect to suggest that Islam is the most numerous religion in the world. This is predicated upon the supposition that all Muslims are of the same sect. Likewise that the only Christians are "Catholics." After all the numbers are tallied this way. They are counting the Muslims as one, yet only comparing these numbers to the Catholic Church and none of the Protestant Denominations are included.

and while I am inclined to believe you get this impression through a long abandoned doctrine the Islamic faith gave up after the last of the Three Holy Crusades...I would like you to in all fairness ask yourself where it is and how it is you have this perception of Muslims bent on converting people of other faiths to their own?

The Christian Crusades were all but finished by 1272 while the Muslims continued their conquests well into the mid 1500's and beyond. They controlled Spain with the sword until 1492.
en.wikipedia.org...
They attacked Malta in 1565'.
en.wikipedia.org...(1565)

the most dangerous and inflamatory thing they could possibly do over there would be to hand out Bibles.

I think that the most dangerous and inflammatory thing that the could do over there is be over there. Handing out the Bibles may be a bad PR move, and I'm sure that the Evangelist that are doing it didn't look that far down the road. But, what if we are only seeing one side of this argument? (I'm not being cute) what if they had spoken with citizens that hey cam in contact with on a regular basis and were solicited for these materials? What if some citizens wanted to learn more about Christianity and felt threatened by remnants of the Taliban or were generally scared to seek it out on their own? What if it is still illegal to convert (away from Islam) in that country? These are all possibilities that we are not made aware of in any shape or form in this report or video. You say yourself that the media only lets us see what it wants us to.

by you yourself traveling to Afghanistan and attempting to do the same thing,

As previously stated I’m not an Evangelist.

and you would be likely risking life and limb in that process that some societies and nations allow for in expressing freedom of religion

How so? I thought Muslims were peace loving people that allow for others to practice their religions in peace????

What would I have to fear?

Now honestly if my own personal mission were to convert citizens of Afghanistan who are Muslim to Christianity, I would first carefully study their culture and history, and then read their own faith's religious text cover to cover until I had a good basic understanding of them,

Now maybe that doesn't seem a sensible thing to do to you but it seems quite sensible to me.

Seems perfectly understandable and sensible to me, why wouldn't it? Because I'm a dumb uncultured city boy that has never left the country and believes in a creator GOD? Which one is it? Really, I'd like to know because there is something about me that you have pegged and "prejudged." Those are just the obvious stereotypes that I could guess. But, I'll hold my final answer until you let it be known. You have made far too many assumptions at my expense.

I respect that you feel the way you do and likewise respect that you likely haven't considered each aspect that the undertaking you are advocating entails and factors in.

See, I don't really advocate anything. I'm just saying that I think that people are using the Separation of Church and State in order to assault religious people whenever they can. I feel that if they aren't shoving it down your throat than it's not your concern. "Freedom of Religion" was the way it was written. They are using the Separation clause in order to push freedom from religion. If you don't want to see it then don't go around it. I didn't see any soldier Evangelizing any other soldiers. Nor did I see it being Government sponsored.

This is about as clear as I can get on that portion of our discussion.

I'm only arguing the merits of a point of view.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler



I will start by telling you that I am not trying to Evangelize you. I just wanted to clarify some things for you. Being that you admitted that you have a limited knowledge of the Islamic faith and I'm going to take it that you are no Theologian in the Jewish or Christian faith either.

My only aim here is to tell you that my religious beliefs are not rooted in some form of childhood brainwashing or cult like following. I happen to be a very strong willed person and can handle my own decision making in life. I have also seen and experienced a great many things in my life.

My views, choices, and religion (a word I use only for lack of a better description) are rooted in my logic and reason and not forced or coaxed upon me by anyone else. Not even a parent or friend, so lets get that out of the way.

and I must confress I do not know a great deal about Islam but I do know a great deal more about it than most Christians do, and have encountered many Christians with very innacurate and false perceptions about Islam that would leave them at a distinct and total disadvantage in trying to extoll the virtues of their faith's teachings as opposed to the Muslim's faith teachings.

Now, I will tell you why I believe the way that I do about the Muslim and Jewish faiths.

It is very simple, I need only one topic to prove my case.

Now I know that you hold no faith so we must give this lesson based upon the supposition that GOD is GOD and the procession from Judaism to Christianity is factual. Ok, now we can proceed.

It is held in the Islamic faith that Jesus is a Prophet of GOD and that the Immaculate Conception and Virgin Birth are both sacred and true events. Although they do not hold Him as the Son of GOD.

However, on the supposition that Jesus was born of a virgin and the conception was indeed immaculate there could be only one source for such an action. GOD!

Therefore, Jesus is the Son of GOD and the Messiah. And this makes Mohammed the false Prophet in the book of Revelation.

As for the divinity and prophecy of the comming of Jesus it was told as far back as the Hebrew book of Isaiah53:1-9
Isaiah 53
1 Who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
2 For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant,
And as a root out of dry ground.
He has no form or comeliness;
And when we see Him,
There is no beauty that we should desire Him.
3 He is despised and rejected by men,
A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief.
And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him;
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
4 Surely He has borne our griefs
And carried our sorrows;
Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He opened not His mouth;
He was led as a lamb to the slaughter,
And as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
So He opened not His mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment,
And who will declare His generation?
For He was cut off from the land of the living;
For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.
9 And they[a] made His grave with the wicked—
But with the rich at His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was any deceit in His mouth.

Mark 15:3-5

3 And the chief priests accused Him of many things, but He answered nothing. 4 Then Pilate asked Him again, saying, “Do You answer nothing? See how many things they testify against You!”[a] 5 But Jesus still answered nothing, so that Pilate marveled.

so I could talk intelligently and respectfully with anyone who was a member of that religion in appropriate circumstances where such dialougue was welcome so that I could illustrate what made my choice to accept and subscribe to another faith valid to me in a respectful way

1 Corinthians 9:22
22To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some.

I hope you enjoyed your Mother Day Festivities.

I read your reply my friend and if I understand correctly to you this issue is a lithmus test more than anything as to a percieved sense of growing hostility towards the religious?

If that's your question, not assuming mind you, I will answer it anyway and say yes! I feel there is a growing push to limit where Religion is being merged with government on one side and on another a growing movement to include more religion in covernment, the Neoconservative movement does espouse practically everything should have Christ involved. Poor man's going to need a day off let me tell you, they work him to death.

So all insecurities aside from a guy who lives in Miami and other little towns like Los Angeles and Washington D.C. there is trouble a brewing when it comes to the religious incursions in government.

The good news is the Christians are a lot more vocal and a lot better at defensively playing the prejudice card than the homogenous non-religious who just don't have a banner to rally around. It's why we get called a lot of unpleasant names because we don't even have a group or collective name.

Very often they sure want to stick us in a group though. It's funny how many groups I have been placed in by people looking to deflect the argument and ignore my clearly spoken underlying motivation.

We are in too many wars and too much of our war policy has a religious bent to it, and frankly that reeks to me of exploitation and manipulation and I feel a certain responsebility to not only protect others from such people but from themselves as well. I hate seeing people get used.

Frankly I don't really care about Afghanistan or the Taliban. I like Miami, I enjoy places like Hawaii or Rome if I have to travel, I prefer warm places with beaches, and a first world life style. I don't see myself visiting Afghanistan, and while I am prepared to welcome a few, I would prefer no huge group of people from Afghanistan visit Miami, so if the Taliban keeps them happy at home I am fine with that. I once had a wonderful weekend spoiled at a luxury hotel by a group of excitable young Assyrians at the swimming pool. Small groups of two or three intermingled here and there I am fine with that. Maybe a little part of town for them to have their own bakeries, shops and stores. Far from the beach please. I am happy.

What ever they have going on over there well that's their business, and that's pretty much how our Forefathers wanted to play things.

I favor that, it's cheap, it requires no travel, it makes no enemies and it allows for political movements that keep people off the beach and out of the restuarants and casinos. Why screw that up?

Now this whole Israel is the center of Aramaic religion best to do this best to do that. It's best to stop giving them our money, let them fight their own battles, revoke all dual citizenships, your a citizen here or there, if you want to be one there, you can't be one here too, and you come and go on the same Visa process everyone else does. You got nothing, you got nothing coming, want to act tough and impose your will, do it with your money, and your own weapons, and your own lives. Cause trouble it's your trouble.

That's the way our Forefathers wanted things, no taking sides, no foreign wars of aggression, seperating Church and State, pretty simple when you just do it, no body hates you, no body has anything to complain about, costs no money, and the government and the people get to focus on improving our quality of life.

As far as the penalty for not shaving your face, I don't think many of those stone huts over their feature built in Norelco Shaving Systems in the Bathroom. Oh well, wasn't planning on going, and I would have bought my own razor since I can, since I don't live in a part of the world where the average per capita income is 14 dollars a year.

It's none of my business, if you live there and don't like it, make a run for the border, keep running until you get to the sign that says "Give us your Tired, Hungry and Poor Razorless Guys oh and if you would like a Holy Bible New Testament King James Version you can pick that up too"

Courtesy of the Gideons!

Hey that solves that!

When you leave the entire Cookus nest alone stray birds don't fly at you from where ever knocking things down. It's real simple, we treat everyone the same, every body is considered equal that's our way, not equal to have to act like us to be equal and subscribe to all the same values, equal enough for us to respect anyone whose values aren't hurting Americans.

Whether it was our aide to Israel or having troops in Saudi Arabia that made the alledged hijackers carry out an attack, or the MOSSAD staging it to get us to step our presence over there against Islam in general or the CIA and the MOSSAD together to create the pretext to sieze oil and opium I don't know. I do know if we weren't funding Israel, and didn't have troops on the Ground in Saudia Arabia taking sides like we aren't supposed to do, that neither of those excuses would have been real or plausible or justifiable for them.

I won't even fly anymore because I won't let myself be treated like a mindless criminal or piece of chattel in all these draconian security procedures at the airport.

Our people have no self respect and you are worried about the Taliban!

Geeze Louise, I used to walk on to planes across the Tarmac ten minutes before they took off having got to the airport two minutes before that.

If some nut case with nothing but boxcutters pulled one out, no big deal because my seatback safety cushion of thick foam, thicker than a box cutter blade is long works just fine in disarming a poorly armed opponent.

I refuse to live in this make believe fairy tale land were the two tallest buildings in the country fall with the precision of carefully laid demolitions by a group of guys that couldn't even pull it off orchestrated by a man who hasn't even been charged by the FBI whose family has long standing ties to our own president at the time, who not only the presidents father, but the head of Osama's family were having breakfast at the same time, while a scurilous charachter like Lord Rothschild honeymoons in New York after spending his wedding night in the White House there on the day of the attacks with a beautiful two story balcony with a birds eye view.

If I were Jewish I would say "What was I born yesterday"

I wasn't, you guys have a religious war going on over there and you have all been set up to fight it, now what on earth would want to make me give up one second of beach time or one penny of money for that?

Homeland Security? Sounds like a Nazi thing to me. I almost puked when they came out with that. The Patriot Act were it's Patriotic to just give up selective rights that the real Patriots fought for? Hey let them fly planes into buildings all day long, I live in a low rise and work at home. If you guys have to play these silly games keep it all outside please. FISA secret courts, just get right out of town, that's just nuts. That's Nazi Germany and I have to have tell you anyone who is for it, I am against.

I won't give up my inalienable rights because I can't they are inalienable, I don't care who feels insecure cause I won't play that game.

I still don't have any Muslims trying to convert me and if they are gaining converts maybe it's because a little country with the most sophisticate weapons in the world like the USA is attacking multiple countries year after year killing millions of people using a religious justification on the part of the religious minded masses to keep doing it and people are saying wow, these guys are nuts and dangerous, while in the meantime we let Israel committ every human rights violation and steal land and never pay a penny for it, and weaponize them to the nines, and you are having a little trouble figuring out just how that's going wrong?

Now I have to tell you even if there where some mean evil salivating bearded rabid sword weilding Islamic fundamentalist at my door step as I write this who says convert or off with your head. It's been a good life and I will just say no, and I have said no to a few people in my life that were shall we say the murderous type when they can't have their way.

That's my inalienable right. That's how you get inalienable rights, by exercising them.

That's where I am at, and you know, I am very happy with that position, it's been working for me. I sleep with my doors unlocked at night. I have no worries.

Even if the governments story is true and those guys were Islamist fundamentalists they sure didn't cause any trouble in South Florida, in fact not only did they cause no trouble, they spent money in the local economy. Clearly they had no problem with what's going on around here.

And that's just assuming that flimsy story of the Government is true.

Life is a beach my friend, grab a palm tree, leave the bombs at home. Believe me they will all be shaving their beards in this tropical sun and humitity, the Orthodox Jews in my neighborhood don't though, they run in and out of their cars, stores, temple, home white as a ghost, except when they have to walk to temple and most of them live just a few blocks away.

I like walking to the store too I pass them all the time, they never go to the beach, that makes me happy! Crowds who needs them? They all seem to be doing fine, no need to give them or their relatives or friends money or weapons. The Muslims hardly leave their little shops, can count on day or night for a bottle of coke and a back cigarrettes, wife and kids at home, it's idealic. Why aren't you guys all getting along, it's weird, it sure has been working for me up to now.

It's getting to expensive, cut back for a while would you please. Find another game. Parcheesee is fun and cheap.

[edit on 11/5/09 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

Praise God, this is wonderful. By the way The Constitution when written was never meant to separate Church and state like some believe after all the Constitution was written with the Bible as its main reference. The reason for the separation of Church and state was to prevent another state or government owned church like the Church of England that many early settlers were trying to escape. It was never meant to completely keep religion out of the government after all ever look at the money? In God We Trust? If the original writers of the Constitution intended for religion to be completely separated from the government then this country would not have been founded on religion and the freedom to worship God.

In all my father's stories about being a US soldier in WW2, I don't recall one about his chaplain asking then to convert French Protestants to Catholicism and vice versa. Chaplains were there to offer personal spiritual aide/guidance to soldiers and to conduct religious services. I don't recall US soldiers in Korea or Viet Nam being asked to convert Buddhists.

But then, back then, the End Times prophets were politely ignored and stepped around on the sidewalk corner. Now, these End Time prophets are in corner offices in Washington helping to guide US foreign policy.

I recall my father's stories of being in foxholes with people of all faiths, or...gasp...atheists. He was never told to convert his fellow soldiers even. This current mixture of religion wanting to gain spiritual power through the temperol power of government has served neither well. And never will.

Originally posted by desert
In all my father's stories about being a US soldier in WW2, I don't recall one about his chaplain asking then to convert French Protestants to Catholicism and vice versa. Chaplains were there to offer personal spiritual aide/guidance to soldiers and to conduct religious services. I don't recall US soldiers in Korea or Viet Nam being asked to convert Buddhists.

But then, back then, the End Times prophets were politely ignored and stepped around on the sidewalk corner. Now, these End Time prophets are in corner offices in Washington helping to guide US foreign policy.

I recall my father's stories of being in foxholes with people of all faiths, or...gasp...atheists. He was never told to convert his fellow soldiers even. This current mixture of religion wanting to gain spiritual power through the temperol power of government has served neither well. And never will.

My friend wiser words have never been said.

Religion corrupts government and government corrupts religion when you put the two together, both of which end up then breaking some of their most important rules to make that un-Holy, Holy marraige works and everyone suffers all around.

It's so simple. Thanks for handing down our best tradition mouth to mouth. I am sure your Grand Father was a great comfort and joy to have in your life and sharing what he had to say to you to us all, sure is a comfort and joy to me too.

Thanks for posting that.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler


I find this story to be uniquely disturbing. In no small part because it is just one more example of how far from the constitutional principals of separation of church and state that our government has gotten too. In larger part though it is because even after all these past centuries, warfare against Christian leaning nations still is about spreading Christianity it seems.

That same old violent assault against the indigenous people, wean down their numbers in the process, shatter their infrastructure and economic way of life in the process, seize, usurp and then profit off of that people’s and nation’s national resources, impose our system of government based upon contractual law and commerce, and force indoctrinate those surviving indigenous people into the ‘shared’ belief system of the western world of commerce.

Meanwhile a very unchristian like load of bombs drops daily on the heathen nonbeliever’s women and children.

Am I the only person who finds this uniquely disturbing, totally embarrassing, and a deliberate attempt not just to stamp out all other cultures but to ‘absolve’ our own armed forces for feeling any guilt in those acts that they are caused to commit by an increasingly corrupt and unconstitutional government who puts them into harms and dangers way to force our presence, control, philosophies and ideologies on people, while our big businesses profit in every way off these heinous acts of murder and robbery?

Audie Murphy sure would have to be impressed that Christ is still racking up his body count.

www.military.com
(visit the link for the full news article)

wept almighty, the one thing this is NOT is a Crusade for religion- for power and oil maybe, but not Christianity.

A couple of christian preachers talkin about being "witnesses" should not enough to make you teary eyed about these women hating, homosexaul hating, backward "indigenous" (since when is Islam "indigenous" to Afghanistan :lol folk losing their right to attack girls going to school

reply to post by blueorder

wept almighty, the one thing this is NOT is a Crusade for religion- for power and oil maybe, but not Christianity.

A couple of christian preachers talkin about being "witnesses" should not enough to make you teary eyed about these women hating, homosexaul hating, backward "indigenous" (since when is Islam "indigenous" to Afghanistan :lol folk losing their right to attack girls going to school

Great so the way to make that better is to bomb their girls going to school by guys bearing witness?

Afghanistan is not the United States of America my friend and it's none of my business.

Our forefathers did not want us fighting wars of agression or taking sides.

They also wanted church and state seperated.

If you think killing people is the solution to social ills...well that's socially ill, doesn't matter who believes what when you blow them up on the way to school. Now does it?

I am pretty sure Jesus wouldn't want to bear witness to that and neither would I.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Great so the way to make that better is to bomb their girls going to school by guys bearing witness?

who said it was, are you responding to someone else

Afghanistan is not the United States of America my friend and it's none of my business.

I agree, one of our boy's lives is not worth dying to save those people from their own backward culture

Our forefathers did not want us fighting wars of agression or taking sides.

I don't think anyone has ownership on what our "forefathers" did or did not want- those same people did not exactly rate blacks too highly, do you live your life according to that view?

They also wanted church and state seperated.

By and large yes, though, with being an imperfect world the two will never fully be separated- without religion there is no basis for the morality of the "forefathers" (though you know, of course, they were Christians)- secularism has to borrow morals from Christians (as the religion of reference in the western civilisation)- when they stop doing so (as they now do), they have to rely on force to regulate an immoral anarchy. QED.

If you think killing people is the solution to social ills...well that's socially ill, doesn't matter who believes what when you blow them up on the way to school. Now does it?

I am actually baffled as to this comment- what is the context for this in relation to myself- I think we should be out of Afghanistan, I just pointed out it is not a war to "spread" Christianity- it is a war for many things, most of them not particularly admirable, but not that.

[quiote]
I am pretty sure Jesus wouldn't want to bear witness to that and neither would I.


Erm yes, indeed, but again, is this a post to someone else, it appears out of context and without relevance to my post?

reply to post by blueorder

A couple of christian preachers talkin about being "witnesses" should not enough to make you teary eyed about these women hating, homosexaul hating, backward "indigenous" (since when is Islam "indigenous" to Afghanistan :lol folk losing their right to attack girls going to school

Sounds like a pretty judgemental statement to me my friend.

I contend all human life is equal, as it is all equally flawed in one form or other as evidenced by that statement.

Our forefathers were pretty clear about matters of empire.

So am I.

When we have a 0% crime rate, and we all love homosexuals and blacks, and our inner cities don't see the same type of poverty, violence and conditions that you typically see in a war zone...

That would probably be a good time to conclude we have won our internal war with morality so we can take that on the road.

I am not perfect and I am not going to pretend that my flaws somehow have gained me some grand distinction to where I start hating other people for theirs and believe the value of my life is superior in the process.

Silly Christians don't quite get Christ didn't forgive them on the cross for their benefit, he forgave them for his benefit to stop his own karmic wheel.

It didn't stop their karmic wheel, and asking him for foregiveness isn't what he wanted, he wanted people to follow his own example and forgive other people for their transgressions just like he did.

If there is a St. Peter I sure would like to be there on some of these folks judgement day, so full of false pride, and bigotry and hate, asking for forgiveness for feeling that way instead of forgiving the people who made you feel that way.

Like to see how that singularly selfish endeavor flies!

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler

before I even respond to this, you have, in your previous post to me responded with comments that bear no relation to points I raised and seemed to be arguing "against" me in relation to positions which I do not even hold?

Can you focus specifically on that before brining up more random nonsense?

[edit on 11-5-2009 by blueorder]

Originally posted by blueorder

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler

before I even respond to this, you have, in your previous post to me responded with comments that bear no relation to points I raised and seemed to be arguing "against" me in relation to positions which I do not even hold?

Can you focus specifically on that before brining up more random nonsense?

[edit on 11-5-2009 by blueorder]

I did respond to you my friend. I don't agree that we have a right to judge the Afghani's in how they live in their country.

I don't believe any one human life holds any more value than another.

I don't believe any one human being has reached a state of divine perfection where they should condemn another to death or barbarity for not having done so.

I don't believe our forefathers wanted us to fight any foreign wars of aggression.

I don't believe our soldiers should be over there.

I don't believe our forefathers wanted any aspect of religion mixed with Government but wanted true Seperation of Church and State.

Now having said that, which is very straight forward and honest and direct, feel free to disagree with what ever I have just said.

That will hopefully clarify my position and elliminate any confusion.

Thanks friend.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
I did respond to you my friend. I don't agree that we have a right to judge the Afghani's in how they live in their country.

before we go anywhere, we must deal with the first post I made- I am opposed to our involvement in Afghanistan but was making the point that out of all the shoddy, despicable reasons we are there, furthering Christianity is not one of them

I don't believe any one human life holds any more value than another.

as a general theory I would agree- though I believe our free will and consequent choices affects how people are dealt with on this earhtly realm, and this involves judgement of said choices

I don't believe any one human being has reached a state of divine perfection where they should condemn another to death or barbarity for not having done so.

perfection is impossible, this is the land of man, there is, obviously, better and worse, and judgement of choice and action is one of the things that *should* separates us from the animals

I don't believe our forefathers wanted us to fight any foreign wars of aggression.

we really have no way of knowing what they believed about future conflicts hundreds of years in the future

I don't believe our soldiers should be over there.

nor do I

I don't believe our forefathers wanted any aspect of religion mixed with Government but wanted true Seperation of Church and State.

impossible to achieve, this is the land of man, and religion will enter it somehow, as long as it is no applied in a fundamentalist manner- religion, after all, is the basis for our laws in terms of murder

Now having said that, which is very straight forward and honest and direct, feel free to disagree with what ever I have just said.

That will hopefully clarify my position and elliminate any confusion.

Thanks friend.

no bother chum, it's good to discuss!

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

a percieved sense of growing hostility towards the religious?

Correct, it seems to be ramping up in the past ten years or so. There are many that are egging on a general hatred for those that practice the Abrahamic religions. It just feels as though the liberals seem to have a soft spot when it comes to Islam.

And before we go any further, lets make it clear that unless I point a finger at you I am speaking in a general sense.

the Neoconservative movement does espouse practically everything should have Christ involved.

See, issues like this you and I can agree upon. I do not feel that it is at all compatible with our form of government to mix any religion with it. I will say that I find it rather petty for groups such as the ACLU to make such a big stink over the Ten Commandments on the wall in a Court Room. After all, it is the foundation of modern law in Western Culture.

Now, if people want to force prayer and things of that nature than I can agree with you whole heartily. That's an issue.

Frankly I don't really care about Afghanistan or the Taliban.

I do, as a human being we should care about others. I just don't think that it's our (America's) place to play "king maker" our nation builder.

What ever they have going on over there well that's their business, and that's pretty much how our Forefathers wanted to play things.

I hear you loud and clear. A man after my own heart.

Now this whole Israel is the center of Aramaic religion best to do this best to do that. It's best to stop giving them our money, let them fight their own battles, revoke all dual citizenship's, your a citizen here or there, if you want to be one there, you can't be one here too, and you come and go on the same Visa process everyone else does. You got nothing, you got nothing coming, want to act tough and impose your will, do it with your money, and your own weapons, and your own lives. Cause trouble it's your trouble.

I agree with your politics 100%!!!!!! Only, one thing. Your history is a bit off, it's (Jerusalem) the center of the "Abrahamic Religions" meaning the Patriarch Abraham. That he is held in an important role in all three religions. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

As far as the penalty for not shaving your face, I don't think many of those stone huts over their feature built in Norelco Shaving Systems in the Bathroom.

No it's true, and it goes back as far as the Jewish Holy Books. That's why you see the Hasidic and other Orthodox Jews with the harry face.

Leviticus 19:27
27 You shall not shave around the sides of your head, nor shall you disfigure the edges of your beard.

It's real simple, we treat everyone the same, every body is considered equal that's our way,

Sorry, it never was that way! And with the days of political correctness we may have a society where everyone is "equal." But rest assured friend, everyone is not equal. I think that meritocracy has it's place, so long as it doesn't get pushed overboard with things like Eugenics.

We are not all created equal, we are all created with potential. If we chose to capitalize on the different areas of potential that each of us have than we each have a chance to succeed in this country if not then PC society will eventually push us into a Socialized country and a "Green Hell." Speak out against them and find yourself in peril.

Whether it was our aide to Israel or having troops in Saudi Arabia that made the alledged hijackers carry out an attack, or the MOSSAD staging it to get us to step our presence over there against Islam in general or the CIA and the MOSSAD together to create the pretext to sieze oil and opium I don't know. I do know if we weren't funding Israel, and didn't have troops on the Ground in Saudia Arabia taking sides like we aren't supposed to do, that neither of those excuses would have been real or plausible or justifiable for them.

Who the hell knows what's real and what's dis-info anymore. If we are smart and look for the truth on our own terms than we stand a chance of being able to discern the facts from their fiction that they feed the masses. One thing is for sure, The CIA was intimately involved with both Bin Laden and Hussein. That's enough for me to think otherwise of the official story, not to mention the science behind the claims to the contrary.

I refuse to live in this make believe fairy tale land were the two tallest buildings in the country fall with the precision of carefully laid demolitions by a group of guys that couldn't even pull it off orchestrated by a man who hasn't even been charged by the FBI whose family has long standing ties to our own president at the time, who not only the presidents father, but the head of Osama's family were having breakfast at the same time, while a scurilous charachter like Lord Rothschild honeymoons in New York after spending his wedding night in the White House there on the day of the attacks with a beautiful two story balcony with a birds eye view.

Your eyes are indeed open!

Homeland Security? Sounds like a Nazi thing to me.The Patriot Act were it's Patriotic to just give up selective rights that the real Patriots fought for

Your papers please! It's a shame how they use patriotism to disguise their fascist activities!

killing millions of people using a religious justification on the part of the religious minded masses

en.wikipedia.org...

75% of Americans for Iraq (at the onset). Why I don't know? Because I always thought better of that action.

icue.nbcunifiles.com...

78% of American supported the invasion of Afghanistan.

Neither of these numbers are representative of the "religious mind masses" as you put it. Maybe 75 to 78% of Americans were Christian fundamentalist about 150 years ago, but not in this day and age.

Just needed to clear up that point.

Why aren't you guys all getting along, it's weird, it sure has been working for me up to now.

I get along just fine.

reply to post by blueorder

I don't think anyone has ownership on what our "forefathers" did or did not want- those same people did not exactly rate blacks too highly, do you live your life according to that view?

Not that I am in the habit of defending slave owners, but I think that we have to accept the founding fathers much the same as many people from antiquity (with a grain of salt) as being a product of their time.

This is the only nation in which we scruple with the system and habits of the people at the time that they founded our country. We can not equate our morals and manner of doing things with the standards of people from over two centuries ago. You don't really see the people of Europe, Asia, Africa, and South America squabbling about the manner in which their ancient leaders conducted government. They merely take the glean lessons of import and likewise lessons from their imperfections.

By the way slavery was something that many of them found to be a cancer and wanted rooted out. It was protested by Northern slave traders (Dutch) and Southern plantation owners alike. Ultimately the Continental Congress was forced to surrender the good fight in order to keep safe the unity between the colonies (without which the Revolution would have been lost for sure).

Some times you have to retreat in order to fight another day, and the abolitionist never did rest. They continued to advocate for the Abolition of Slavery and The Slave Trade until it was achieved. Even though it was never an immediate aim of Lincolns.


Lincolns First Inaugural address

"I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so."

secularism has to borrow morals from Christians (as the religion of reference in the western civilisation)- when they stop doing so (as they now do), they have to rely on force to regulate an immoral anarchy. QED.

You are right indeed. Although I'd like to think that people are still raised to be decent human beings on that basis alone. Then again, there are many "religious" people that aren't. That's why I don't consider myself to be counted among the religious. I do believe in GOD and I do belong to a specific sect of Christianity. But, I'm not one to allow anyone to dictate what I should believe, that's just where I find myself closest to like minded people. See religious people try and force absolutes upon you. It is my opinion that the letter of the Law kills and the Spirit of what's behind it gives life.

If Religious people want to try and tell me that GOD says I must do thus and it feels wrong then it's time for me to say goodbye.

reply to post by blueorder

impossible to achieve, this is the land of man, and religion will enter it somehow, as long as it is no applied in a fundamentalist manner- religion, after all, is the basis for our laws in terms of murder

For the most part I agree with you.

All the way back to the laws of Ancient Sumer religion was the basis and the foundation of the laws that were applied to all men. What's more is that they were actually just laws for the most part. Accept for the usual killing.

en.wikipedia.org...

This site has all of the laws, if you feel so inclined as to look through them you'll see that there are some pretty good laws in there (for there time).

www.mythome.org...

Click on the opening remarks before you start to peruse through the laws. There are over 280 laws.

It's a nice little look at how religion has always influenced law.

Christian soldiers in Iraq


Just like adding gasoline to the fire.
They're not looking for Bin Laden. They're conquering/invading countries. One has oil, the other poppy.
But karma has a funny way tto come back and bite you in the butt.


[edit on 5/13/2009 by haika]