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GIs Told to Bring Afghans to Jesus

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posted on May, 6 2009 @ 10:08 AM
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Originally posted by TheAgentNineteen

The JOB of a Chaplain, Pastor, Minister, or Priest, ALL of whom are "Holy Servants of God", is to spread the word and teachings of which they preach. A Chaplain is a religious counsel, and therefore they have every right to promote religious views.


Pastors, ministers & priests, yes.

Chaplains, NO.

Chaplains are there to meet the spiritual needs of the troops. They are not there to proselytize - ESPECIALLY not to civilians in foreign lands.

www.uscochq.com...

You really believe that it's a chaplain's "job" is to spread his or her faith? If their job was to spread their faith, then that would be a direct violation of the First Amendment.

www.secular.org...

Limits on proselytizing by military chaplains were clearly spelled out by a federal appeals court over twenty years ago. "The primary function of the military chaplain is to engage in activities designed to meet the religious needs of a pluralistic military community," the 2nd Circuit Court of Appeals wrote in 1985, in Katcoff v Marsh. Army chaplains were hired to serve military personnel "who wish to use them," the Court observed; they are not authorized "to proselytize soldiers or their families." Proselytizing by chaplains is a discriminatory, unconstitutional endorsement of religion that results in the religious harassment of our military personnel.

If a minister has a problem with that, then he should not sign up for military service. He should instead go as a civilian missionary, rather than expect taxpayers to subsidize his mission trips.

An example of a chaplain who does not understand his duty as an officer can be found here:

www.californiachronicle.com...

Lt. Klingenschmitt is in clear violation of the Covenant and The Code of Ethics for Chaplains of the Armed Forces and more importantly has disobeyed direct orders. As a commissioned officer this is unacceptable. All chaplains know going in that they will have to work in a multi-faith environment and minister to the needs of all servicemen regardless of their faith. If he can’t do this in good conscience he should resign his commission.

Note that he is, as all chaplains are, allowed to pray any way he wants while in worship services of his own denomination or while out of uniform. He just can’t pray in Jesus’ name while in uniform ministering to servicemen of mixed faiths. This policy also applies to Muslim chaplains praying in Allah’s name or Catholic chaplains praying to Mary. It does not single out Christian chaplains in any way.




posted on May, 6 2009 @ 11:14 AM
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reply to post by reynoldswrapchapeau
 


Thanks for taking the time in posting some great additional sources on Chaplains and ethics...

Big star on that for that.

I would like to add my larger concern here is that I too have found a number of articles and court cases brought by soldiers regarding misuse of power by Chaplains and other Regular Officers alike...where soldiers are being both extolled and sometimes threatened to either accept Christ or promote Christ.

Articles showing that this flows from Secretary Gates on down are disturbing. Robert Gates has been named in some of these lawsuits for favoring devoutly and openly Christian Officers over non-Christian Officers for promotions.

There does seem to be some un-Official/Official drive at play to appeal to Christians in ranks, to convert those who aren't Christian in ranks, and to make being non-Christian in the Military a difficult endeavor that includes some harrassment.

Why? Christians will naturally see this as pure and simple validation of their beliefs and not question these violations of the Constitution and Uniform Militiary Code of Justice and not ask that question.

I have asked myself that question as to why.

The Muslim religion is not well understood by Christians, and the Churches, and the Media, and sadly the Government highlight the differences as opposed to the similarities. Conversely the Churches and the Media and the Government do the opposite when it comes to Judiasm...they highlight the similarities and not the differences, even though the differences are far greater and far starker between Judiasm and Christianity.

We aren't at war though with any nation where Judiasm is the primary religion. We are at war though with nation(s) where Islam is the primary religion.

What I am in fact covering some disturbing evidence of, is a deliberate attempt to manipulate Christians in the military and to join the military to fight Muslims...because of the percieved differences between Christianity and Islam.

While 19 Saudi Highjackers are alleged to have carried out 9-11, and portions of the Government (not the FBI though) allege Saudi born and raised Osma Bin Laden carried these out, while commanding a multi-national orginization of private independent citizens known as Al Queda whose membership is purported to be all Muslim...

Neither the Taliban, or the Afghanistan People or it's Government, or Sadaam Hussein, or the Iraqi Government played any critical or even minor supporting role in these crimes that has ever been documented with any evidence, let alone credible evidence, let alone produced and entered in to evidence in an American Court of Law for a review by a Jury of American Citizens.

No country attacked us on 9-11, individual human beings attacked us on 9-11 operating together in a non-governmental, non-state conspiracy...that's a crime...not an act of war...and while it remains incredibly suspicious that 8 years later no proper lawful Constitutional criminal proceedings have been enjoined against anyone...the purely circumstantial and poorly collabarated evidence put forth by the Executive, Legislative branches of Government and promoted through the Media...seem to charge all Muslims the world over as being somehow complicit in this, and have promoted an atmosphere well evidenced by some posts on this thread that all Muslims, including women and children, as well as peacable law abiding men are guilty by extension and deserve to have an outright act of war visited upon them and to suffer and die in that process for primarily being Muslim.

Our Military is a volunteer orginization though. American citizens elect to become soldiers...and in that process are sent in to conditions and situations that expose them to the real, unedited, 3 dimmensional, sound, sight, smell, touch reality of war, where women and children suffer horrible depravities and injuries and deaths, where peacable men with no interest in the conflict who wish to be no party to it suffer the same.

That experience isn't the imaginary "Kill them all and let G-d sort them out" verbal exlamation many armchair warriors declare while watching sanitized, highly edited, one dimmensional pictures of a battle field.

Let me tell you if you like watching American Football on TV but have never been to a Pro Football Game at a Stadium where the whole playing field is laid out before your eyes, and there are no close up distinctions capturing what the Producers want you to see...what you do see in that situation is a whole different game...they reciever who was open that the Quarterback didn't see on the field, and the TV shot didn't bother to show you, the vicious clip that never got flagged and called that blocked the quatrterbacks view of that receiver and the confrontation between other players that blocked the Referee's view of the clip...in other words its a whole other game...you don't get to see the Cheerleaders either, or the 1001 delicious chollestoral and high fat and calorie laden refreshments at the concession stands. You don't feel the heat of 102 degree Sunday afternoon in Phoenix in the early fall, you don't feel the cold of a -4 degree day in Bufallo.

When Soldiers go to war they see War for what it is, it is not glorious, it can be exciting in an adrennilin pumping way but by and large it is a terrifying event full of horrible sounds, sights and smells where man's inhumanity to man is highlighted in the vivid most compelling terms.

What I am witnessing here is a demonization of Islam, an extollation of Christians to see this whole phony war on Terror as a fight between the 'Good' of the Christian West...versus...the 'Evil' of the Islamic East.

Simply put someone who sees that Afghanistan has built a new Trans-Country Oil Pipeline the Taliban refused Royal Dutch Shell to put through but has since been laid after the invasion took place...someone who sees that Opium production has gone up 90 fold since the invasion and the removal of the Taliban from controlling the Popeye fields, and sees that that 6 of the alleged Saudi Highjackers are still alive and proved to the FBI that they had their identities stolen, someone who sees that Saudi Osama Bin Laden looks awfully different in each and every short scratchy video very infrequently released...usually right before the Patriot Act is up for Renewal and a U.S. Election is taking place...isn't going to be inclined to bomb, machine gun, napalm, murder, dismember and imprison the moms and dads, neices and nephews, brothers and sisters, grandmas and grand pas, sons and daughters of Afghanistan in some insane indiscriminate call to glory...

Who is most succeptible to wanting to do that...the Holy Christian Warrior...the good G-d loving, Jesus loving Christian who understands the blasphemy to their Lord that the Islamic Religion so affronts in their poorly understood rendition of that religion. Those gentle little lambs who extort people such as myself as a blind hater, and those loving kind souls who imagine they are doing little 6 year old Kareem a favor by killing his Islamic father who works as a blacksmith shoeing donkeys and crippling his evil Koran toting mother, who foolishly married his honest simple hard working father, for her own crimes of cooking three meals a day and trying to keep their stone hut tidy and clean and warm and inviting for her family.

There is a drive on, a conspiracy on, and has been since day one to make this about religion...to create that concept of Holy Crusade...to sell the notion that a poorly investigated, never prosecuted crime of 20 civilian multi-national conspirators was an Islamic plot hatched for no other reason than 'Ours is a Christian Nation' which truly it is not, is not supposed to be propurted as such and the Constitution takes great pains to make sure it will not become one and be so labelled, which is why people of many faiths and of no faith from all over the world have been immigrating here to enjoy liberty for over 200 years now.

The Christian Right and Christian Left, and the Christians in the middle can call me a hater all they want...and they would be right...

I hate war...I hate ignorance...I hate that I live in a world that lacks compassion and empathy for my fellow man all to often...I hate that I live in a world where a guy who can't get an Oil Pipeline built that he wants...even though he is the richest man in the world already, buys a penthouse in Manhattan with a spectacular bird's eye view of the World Trade Centers right after Honeymooning with his new bride in the White House as a guest of the United States of America's President and heads out to his new Penthouse in Manhattan with a spectacular two story wrap around the building balcony and sits on it while he watches trapped human beings leap to their deaths as the World Trade Centers come crashing to the ground in a criminal act, not an act of war by a soveriegn nation...and then heads out to never return but gets his pipeline built in short order...yes I strongly dislike that...

I strongly dislike seeing Chrstians being manipulated to blindly engage in that process at the expense of their own health, welfare and life, in the process of shattering other innocent people's health, welfare and life, through violence...all too often justified by agressor and victim alike as being based on and about their religion.

It's caused so many lives and so much damage, and so much money...who but someone indoctrinated to act and obey on sheer unsubstantiated faith alone would enthusiatically embrace that concept and that way of life.

There is a huge conspriacy to use Christians to this end and they are being used to that end because they are Christians...

That's the point of this thread in my oppinion and why I posted to article to start it.



posted on May, 6 2009 @ 11:15 AM
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reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler
 


Thanks for the kind words, and I really do understand your concerns.

To answer your questions: I was an active duty Army Intelligence officer from 1982-1992. Then served in the Army Reserves until 2006; retiring out of the Reserves then. However since leaving active duty, I have been a Defense Contractor/Consultant. In this capacity, I regularly work with members of all Services, throughout the world. My job requires that I deploy to forward locations frequently, especially since 911. In that time, I have flown over 670K miles on commercial airlines alone (within the CENTCOM theater, I often fly in military aircraft). So I still get to see and experience first hand what is 'going on'. In fact, I am employed today exactly because my customers sort of consider me an expert at going into somewhere and quickly figuring out exactly what is going on: what's wrong, what's right, and what needs to be done.

In my experience, especially since 911, I can say with absolute certainty that most service members pretty much ignore chaplains and formal religion. The most 'flagrant' example of religious display I have witnessed was a chaplain giving a before dinner prayer at the mess hall on Thanksgiving Day - this was in Saudi Arabia in 2002. Now some folks may think that is an intrusion on their religious freedom, but to me and most soldiers there, it was only 30 seconds of non-denominational 'thanks be to god' stuff that surely didn't convert or offend anyone. I may mention that the servers in the mess hall - from Pakistan - merely watched from their serving stations - probably not really interested.

This is pretty much the same as my experience earlier in my career. There was always one or two other officers that were religious, and maybe went to bible studies during lunch, or to the chapel on Sundays. But the vast majority of us, were too busy eating, sleeping, or catching up to make an effort. When one of these god-guys tried to talk to me about it, I politely listened for a minute and then said 'I appreciate your concern, but I'm okay the way I am". Which I believe is how most people handle it. You see, although each commander wanted to make sure that he gave a nod to the chaplain from time to time (as is proper), they were really marginalized, and never sat in any staff or planning meetings, or went out on operations. [It may have been different in WWII but not since I have been around]. As evidence, let's consider that a bible study might have a dozen attendees - from a potential pool of at least 600 in a battalion or a few thousand on one of our bigger bases.

Within Iraq and Afghanistan, most of the locals don't speak english (maybe 5% in cities, less outside). Most of them are merely interested in doing business with the US and its allies. The rest of the folks merely want to stay out of trouble, which means not getting too friendly with the Allied military, nor being perceived as its enemy. Between the language barriers, the illiteracy, and the cultural differences; I believe that converting these people to christianity would be more difficult than converting them to democracy. And we all know how well we have done at that mission.



posted on May, 6 2009 @ 12:14 PM
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reply to post by Sashromi
 


Thanks for another great edition to the thread my friend. I know it takes a little bit of time to lay out and present all those thoughts in such an easy to read concise manner, and I sure I am not alone in appreciating that outstanding contribution.

I have a friend from Viriginia who works for a defense contractor in a similiar job as yours and travels quite frequently and extensively for it too.
So I have a pretty good idea about the kind of life you are leading and what it exposes you too...and frankly, I very much appreciate and put a lot more stock in the people who have been there and done that...than some of the views that are put forward by people without that kind of first hand knowledge.

The commanding Officers in fact did confiscate those specially printed Bibles in the two Afghan dialects they were printed in and it's thought that none of them got out into the field.

I love Military History, War is simply an extension of politics by another means and the motivations for going to war, the strategies employed in fighting them, and your current job...attending to the all important task of logistics...getting the right equipment, training and people and supplies to the point of attack and defence is often what wins or looses a war on the ground.

But wars aren't just about control on the ground, war is about politics, and politics are about idealogy, and that imaginary but very real 5th collumn in any war, made up of the hearts and minds of the actual everday citizens who aren't direct combatants is what ultimately is going to make gains of terrain and real estate by force tennable, or untennable.

We have settled into an 'occupying' stance in both Afghanistan and Iraq, the fighting is sporatic but intense on a limted scale of engagement when it does break out because it's no longer a case of massed uniformed armies facing each other on an open plain of battle looking to gain or deny swaths of occupied real estate from one another.

It's about the fifth collumn of those average citizens whose hearts and minds are opposed for various and myriad reasons to oppose occupation of a foreign armed force who supplants indeginous authority.

When you win the battle for hearts and minds and the fifth collumn sees that their are more simmiliarities in the ways of life than dissimillarities, and that occupying force allows for a freedom to celebrate and enjoy both the simmiliarites and dissimillarities then you end up with a peaceful happy situation that sometimes works out for the better, but in the case of most occupations ends up working out for the worse.

For instance the Brittish as occupiers of Palestine where not accepted by the Jews and Zionists or the Palestinians but it was primarily the Jews and Zionists who fought the Brittish violently and forced them to withdraw from the occupation.

The Vietnamese forced the U.S. to withdraw from occupation of Vietnam.

The Japanese on the other hand were able to peacefully transform their society by more or less their own volition under American occupation as were the Germans.

The Soviet Union did not have much luck with their long occupations of Eastern Europe, or in getting them to adopt wholesale their way of life.

They had terrible luck in Afghanistan, no foreign army has ever succesfully occupied Afghanistan and the resurgent Taliban is proof that our Military is faring no better than any others.

Like the Soviets we have established a 'protected' government run by Afghans in Kabul with limited ability and effectiveness outside of the Capitol City to establish and impose it's rule on the broader country.

If we left Afghanistan tomorrow the government in Kabul would fall within weeks or months, just as it did when the Soviets pulled out and abandoned the Afghanistan administration they brought to power through a very similiar process as our own.

Of course it's all business, as you know...you are going in and out of these places to cater to the big money to be made off of war and wars of occupation, and that is no kind of disrespect for what you do for a living in anyway but merely an acknowledgement of why such a job exists and you have it. You understand the logistics of combat and know what needs to be bought and maintained and employed to make a military opperation acceptable. It's not a charity it's a business.

The Catholic Church reputed to be one of the wealthiest entities in the world is not exactly a charity either. They don't give all their wealth away.

Part of what they use their wealth for is to win hearts and minds. During the first very violent years of the Solidarity movement in Poland Pope John Paul travelled to Poloand which was being led by a senior General of a Military Junta. The Pope met with the General in their dual capacities as Heads of State and as is customary when Heads of State meet they exchanged the normal prerequisite gifts. The Polish Leader gave the Pope an oil painting of a rural Polish landscape valued at 55 USD. The Pope gave the General brutally suppressing the Solidarity Labor Movement an original Rembrant valued at 3 million USD. That is all part of the war for hearts and minds, diplomacy, politics not withstanding the huge dissparity in the value and the importance of the gifts exchanged. I am sure the General still loves his gift from the Pope to this day and likely points to it proudly for what it is, from whence it came, who gave it to him, and why.
Needless to say a Military Junta does no longer rule Poland.

Winning the War in Afghanistant and transcending from an Occupying Force that props up a relatively powerless regime from a well protected military strong hold being protected primarily by non Afghani's by American Military requires winning the hearts and minds of the people to see the value in the Constitutional form of Government only a minority of the people of Afghanistan voted for, those people whose hearts and minds were won, or those opportunists who saw in its formation economic and political opportunities.

The Soviets could not build on such a minority, whether it was because of a bad system of government they installed and propped up, or it's corruption, or it's abuses, or simply because the majority of the indigenous population would not and did not want to embrace the idealogy of it because they saw no value in it, is what it is.

In fact the Mujhadeen that American Tax Dollars funded and the CIA helped recruit and train in large part became the Talliban that was able to establish a secure and more stable government amongst the majority but with an idealogy we here in the West to not appreciate or completely understand. It wasn't the Afghani citizens that drove them from power, but as usual in Afghanistan simply some tribal ellements who wished for power themselves and found funding and arms and force augmentation through the United States and NATO led action to remove the Taliban not because of their direct complicit involvement in 9-11 but primarily because their idealogy is not conducive to foreign control and the safe and gauranteed conducting of commerce inside of Afghanistan by foreign enterprises and people such as yourself. Your company might have found some good business opportunities in Taliban Afghanistan but maintaining your safety in and out of there while doing it, and getting paid on the contracts for your services and materials would have been much more problematic.

To win hearts and minds you have to understand the hearts and minds of the people you are trying to win over.

Anyone who understood the Islamic culture would know the last way on Earth to win their hearts and minds is even to joke about converting them to Christianity.

The notion that well if we could convert them to Christianity would win the war of hearts and minds, but these are no simple pagan people, but a fiercely independent, rugged, war like, and used to it's deprevations and hardships group of tribes with a strung cultural and religious identity stretching back thousands of years that have never been conquered.

This whole idea on the part of the Chaplain who from his viewpoint I am sure was well intentioned, and from the Soldiers and Airman who wanted to try is just a bad idea.

People need to be looking for clues as to how to win the hearts and minds of Afghanis from the history books not from their religious books.

Whether an innocent isolated action by a well intentioned man of the cloth and some like minded believers or part of a deeper conspiracy to make a tough and probably endless occupation part of a Religious war, either way...

It's not going to win hearts and minds, but those who are fighting against it are going to win hearts and minds for their fifth collumn of insurgents for the foolish effort.

Ultimately more people die for such poorly thought out and concieved gestures and no one is well served by that, even those who think G-d will be there to greet them in one Garden or another...

Just my humble oppinion, and why I started this thread.

Thanks for sharing your take on the numbers, I tend to believe them, because you were there, and I appreciate that first hand take and intelligence very much.



posted on May, 6 2009 @ 12:54 PM
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Separation of church and state was in a statement by Jefferson to a Baptist church which reassured the church that he stood for keeping the state out of the church. It had nothing to do with the Constitution, and it had nothing to do with keeping the church out of government.

There are no atheists in foxholes in war. As a veteran, I can reassure you that the chaplains have nothing but the best intentions in mind for recovering a fallen nation and restoring its hope. After all, Islam didn't work too well at keeping the peace for the last 1400 years in that region. I support the spread of the teachings of the Prince of Peace. I just wish most churches would get the teachings right. I am tired of the bad image produced by errant Christians.



posted on May, 6 2009 @ 01:08 PM
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reply to post by jjkenobi
 


"You don't think Muslim in Afghan are trying to convert our soldiers to Islam?"

I don't see the Afghans invading the US attempting to proselytize. I'm not a believer in any religion, but I have absolutely no objection to any of them, including scientism. I strongly object to laws being passed because of these belief systems, and any attempt to 'offer' a religion to people while you are invading them by armed force. Unless you are invited to present your beliefs, keep them to yourself and your fellow believers. War is a euphemism for mass murder, and these wars are being fought for the corporate bottom line. Please refer to two time Medal of Honor winner General Smedley Butler's "War is a Racket".



posted on May, 6 2009 @ 01:14 PM
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reply to post by Walkswithfish
 


"In other words, a little less Allah and the promise of virgins, among other perversions, and you can be delivered from evil.

Every Afghan should exchange the teachings of Islam and the perversions therein for the one and only true God and words from his one and only son."

The crimes 'Christians' have committed in the name of their beliefs (rationalizing and reading into scripture) are many. The justifications and perversions of Christ's own words by the 'follower's' who maintain the 'Christian veneer' are unbelievably warped and hypocritical.



posted on May, 6 2009 @ 01:16 PM
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Originally posted by Jim Scott
Separation of church and state was in a statement by Jefferson to a Baptist church which reassured the church that he stood for keeping the state out of the church. It had nothing to do with the Constitution, and it had nothing to do with keeping the church out of government.


Its more about laws made in response to suits filed in regards to separation of church and state.

The ERA amendment has never passed either - - but is understood.



posted on May, 6 2009 @ 01:28 PM
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Originally posted by jjkenobi
I for one don't have a problem with a military chaplain doing this. The chaplain is not their commanding officer. You are acting as if the battallion commander or two star general issued the orders and special missions or something.


It doesn't matter if it's 'just' a chaplain. It's not his goddamned job to tell soldiers to preach to captives. It's not a soldier's job to do so. his job is following legal military orders - this one isn't even close.


You don't think Muslim in Afghan are trying to convert our soldiers to Islam?


They might be, they might not. What of it? They're a theocracy. We're not. Their people answer to religious fanatics. Do ours? Do you think that we should emulate any behavior the other side allows, just because they do so? That's a piss-poor excuse.

"Little Johnny pissed in the pool, so I'll piss in it as well. Little Johnny tortures kitties, so I'll do that, too."

The article demonstrates that these people know full well that doing this would be illegal. That's why they talk about 'giving gifts' ie, bibles, instead, since gifts aren't illegal. In other words, they're using deceit to circumvent the law, and should be kicked out on their collective asses for doing so.

If they want to preach, they can resign, take off the uniform of the United States military, and do their preaching on their own.



posted on May, 6 2009 @ 01:35 PM
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Originally posted by Jim Scott
There are no atheists in foxholes in war. As a veteran, I can reassure you that the chaplains have nothing but the best intentions in mind for recovering a fallen nation and restoring its hope.


Doesn't matter, even if they do. As I've said, if they want to preach to people who didn't come to them and ask for it, they should resign, take off the uniform, and preach on their own.


I just wish most churches would get the teachings right. I am tired of the bad image produced by errant Christians.


On that I could agree. Unfortunately, there seem to be so many of these 'errant Christians.' It's starting to feel like that 'a few bad apples' excuse the Bushies gave regarding torture of prisoners, back before it came out that it wasn't 'just a few' but rather it was on orders from the White House.



posted on May, 6 2009 @ 02:20 PM
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reply to post by Jim Scott
 





Separation of church and state was in a statement by Jefferson to a Baptist church which reassured the church that he stood for keeping the state out of the church. It had nothing to do with the Constitution, and it had nothing to do with keeping the church out of government.


Assuming you aren’t familiar with the Title VI of the U.S. Constitution, or the 1st Amendment, though in part it is much harder to get away with an attempt to redefine the Constitution as opposed to the motivations of what Thomas Jefferson a politician, said to the laity of a Baptist Church he was neither a member of or attended the services and ceremonies of...how would you know what Thomas Jefferson meant if you aren’t 250 years old and weren’t there to discuss it with him personally?

Inquiring minds would like to know. I could quote sources from statements made by founding fathers all day long that can easily be viewed as them being against organized religion and religion and state being merged.

Likewise I am sure you could take a small percentage of the founding fathers I cite, and source quotes that are suggestive that they were for organized religion and wanted it incorporated in government. I am sure you could find a smaller group of founding fathers who were devoutly religious men and spoke clearly about wanting some aspects of religion in government. I honestly don’t know who those founding fathers were but since you have that perception of history maybe you could provide a few quotes from them to that aim, as opposed to just saying what you think Thomas Jefferson meant and implied 250 years after the fact to attempt to support your own personal conclusions.

Either way not only is Title VI of the Constitution a very real part of a very real binding and overriding document of Law, likewise so is the First Amendment. The Supreme Court the only ‘qualified’ and constitutionally ‘empowered’ entity, entrusted to definitively translate the ‘living’ document the Constitution has become…because non of the founding fathers are any longer alive to clarify any of these things you have attempted to clarify on their behalf…say…that Separation of Church and State are real.

You might be happy to know that other Supreme Court Rulings have ruled that there can be no bias towards the absolutely neutrality of Religion. In other words you have a right to petition your government and for laws based on religious principal, or hang a picture of the Virgin Mary in the offices of the Company you own, and people who might be employed by you have no Constitutional Right to require you to take down that picture. You do though not have a Constitutional Right to make them view the picture or get a picture of the Virgin Mary to hang in their home as a qualifier to having a job in your company that is not designated as a “Not for Profit Church” but a “For profit Business”.

There is no doubt that the political clout of the Christian religious community has made inroads into a wider acceptance in the Government, Law and the interpretation of the ‘Living’ Constitution, just as if there is no doubt Jews and the Israelis have done the same, just as there is no doubt Corporations have done the same by getting the Courts to rule that they have all the rights of a Person, without any of the responsibilities or obligations of a Person. Sweet deal huh?

Yet ultimately the danger in that, is that while it might validate your belief system it also opens the door to not just prejudices and misunderstandings, but to a dangerous precedent being created where another competing religious doctrine and deity you don’t believe in, could have a well financed and substantial number of citizens supplanting your religion with theirs in the Government. When all religions stay out of trying to usurp government, then all religions are kept equal, just like the Constitution was about trying to keep all people equal. Put one type of person ahead of the pack, or one religion ahead of the pack you have long term repercussions and social problems as evidenced in the struggle Black Americans have gone through to gain political and social acceptance and equality, as evidenced by how all women also had to suffer through that process, of being ‘seen’ and ‘treated’ as equals under the law.

Tipping the scales when it’s in your favor might seem the “American” way…and it is, to the extend it’s the American way of destroying the Fabric of America and equality and justice for all. Equal would have been giving Jews, Muslims, Mormons, Episcopalians, Atheists, Agnostics, Wiccans and Satanists etc., etc., a fair equal opportunity to extol the virtues of their religion or the lack of one to the Afghanis while in uniform at a military function and ceremony and provided materials to also sway Afghanis to their principals.

That my friend would have been equitable, your contention is that equality should not apply in Religion, and that is why Church and State were separated no matter what you imagine Thomas Jefferson meant supposedly on that day you provide no quote or annotation for or source.




There are no atheists in foxholes in war. As a veteran, I can reassure you that the chaplains have nothing but the best intentions in mind for recovering a fallen nation and restoring its hope. After all, Islam didn't work too well at keeping the peace for the last 1400 years in that region. I support the spread of the teachings of the Prince of Peace. I just wish most churches would get the teachings right. I am tired of the bad image produced by errant Christians.


There are no Christians in those foxholes either. Christians would be conscientious objectors and martyr themselves if need be through court martial, imprisonment or execution and would follow their Lord’s commandments that clearly says “Vengeance is Mine” and to “Turn the Other Cheek” and the “Meek shall inherit the Earth”.

Now of course the reality is Church and State are not separate though they are supposed to be. When a Court of Law asks a civilian to place their hand on a Bible and “Swear to tell the whole truth, and nothing but the truth” well, no church and state are definitely not separate and since the Courts are the ultimate interpreters and enforcers of the law…well, the Constitution has simply never been honored. That does not mean its in a diverse populations interest to ignore it for those who are most vocal and can throw the most cash and votes at politicians happy to do business with them.

Putting and end to the falsehood rather than perpetuating it to the extreme is my motivation. My motivation is to protect all people.

As far as why atheists would turn to ‘G-d’ in a foxhole, ‘G-d’ is a universal pagan concept promoted and instilled upon all people from birth through the Church, Government and the Familiar and Social Structure as to be inescapable. It is ingrained without choice into everyone’s conscious through that process, and in large part to answer a not adequately answered question regarding humankinds place in the universe and mortality. Would it be any surprise that when facing a sudden loss of mortality a person in desperation brought on by the weight of their circumstances would literally grasp at any straw or combination of them that might save their life? What would prove the existence of G-d in such a situation is not the Atheist asking for his intecedence at that juncture but G-d showing up and reiterating to all the violently opposed parties “Vengeance is mine, turn the other cheek, the meek inherit the earth”. Which I am sure like with Thomas Jefferson you can better explain the lack of actions and motivation to condone the violent participation in conflict but simply put…if no human being was willing to fight any other human being…how could there be a fight? If you aren’t the first one to refuse to fight to show your belief and faith and adherence in your G-d’s principals but rather are waiting to be the last one not too…because everyone else should go first, in a constant pursuit of being reactionary, instead of proactive, with neither your proactive or reactionary actions even remotely resembling what the Christian God and Christ commanded you to do…and your solution is to give everyone else this philosophy hoping that maybe if they all follow it then you can and will then too…wow!

I will remind you that no Islamic Country has invaded Afghanistan, never…so there problems really are being exported to them from Christian countries.

From where I sit as I have just outlined there doctrine has as many holes as your doctrine and about as many of them actually do what their doctrine tells them too, as Christians do what their doctrine tells them to do.

If G-d had police like the Government has police, you would all be arrested and in jail from where I am viewing and watching from.

Yes everyone seems to be pretty innocent, everyone has good intentions and in large part its because they have books to go by replete with exploitable circular logic to make them feel completely innocent while blowing the head off of another human being…

The only people not innocent and hateful and evil are people like me who would like you to leave your books at home since you don’t follow them anyway and then try this one on for the size “Let he who is without sin cast the first Tomahawk Cruise Missile and Shock and Awe”



posted on May, 6 2009 @ 02:41 PM
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This is a blessing and a curse. Of course and unjust curse, because when a muslim converts to christianity, he is subject to persecution of death by stoning or other forms. I love my muslims brothers and sisters of the world. I hope they realize whos their grandaddy? Abraham! their Granmother? a maid or slave of Sarai, Sarai being Abrahams wife. When Sarai could not bear children, Sarai told Abraham to have a child with an Egyptian by the name of Hagar, Sarai's Servant/handmaid. After concieving (becomming pregant) Hagar dispised Sarai in her eyes and SArai knew it. Sarai Spoke with Abaraham concerning Hagars dispisement, and abraham said to Sarai, deal with Hagar as you please. Sarai then dealt harshly with Hagar, and Hagar ran away. Near a fountain of water Hagar was communed by an angel saying her son she would bare, his name would be Ishmael and he would birth great nations and his seed would be multiplied exceedingly and it shall not be numbered for multitude. (Ishmaelites/Arabs).... Unconditionally! The same was said for Abraham's son Isaac aka Israel (Israelites/Jews)
Most people do not know this, or even know of the promise God made regarding Abrahams seed. Maybe because they have not even read Genesis or any of the Bible for that Matter.
Of course the path of truth from then on becomes contested between religious beliefs. I dont know what Muslims have to say about this, have never spoken to one about this... yet. The Old and New testaments are so realistic, I can see all of it happening. The way people acted, is the same as the way people act today. Phenominal! On top of that the Red Sea, and various other massive events have been proven. There is no doubt in my mind the rest of the story is intact as the way God wants us to view it. the bible is the most printed, yet most unread book exsisting. the path is long and narrow, that is why so many fall short of the glory of the holy spirit. I even myself struggle with this, attempting to be pure and clean of inequity (wrongdoing/sin)

[edit on 6-5-2009 by KilluminatisRex]



posted on May, 6 2009 @ 04:57 PM
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reply to post by KilluminatisRex
 


Hi my friend. Having faith in something is great. Believing in something strongly based on faith is nice too.

Yet where religion is concerned who is truly correct in saying they know best and their way is best to the point that they have a right to undermine someone else's faith by foisting it upon them, even if it is with seemingly good intent.

The Judean/Christian/Muslim religions boil down to what is in essence a 3 sided argument over a being that does not care to wish to settle the dispute for one reason or another.

The War in Afghanistan should not be about settling that dispute. It's not what the U.S. Military is for, it's not why the United States Congress sent them to war. It's also against the Uniform Code of Conduct, against the United States Constitution and against the Afghanistan Constitution.

Ultimately each person has to decide what is right for them and what is right for them to believe in and guide their lives by.

That's not a function of our State or Military where and when it comes to religion, and it truly shouldn't ever be either.

Our Republic was modled after the Roman Republic, and the Roman Republic celebrated religious diversity. When they conquered a land they brought back that land's Gods and Beliefs back to Rome where any Roman was free to subscribe to them and worship that God or free to reject that God and not worship them. They did not ever tell the conquered people and states they incorporated into Rome they could not worship their traditional Gods or that their traditional Gods held no power, or they were worshipping a God in an incorrect, innapropriate, or partial fashion. That was between the people and their Gods and not the State. The only thing Rome cared about is that you paid your taxes.

That very process of the Romans is what brought Christianity back to Rome. It's a process that Christians themselves should celebrate because without that process you likely would have never heard of Christ.

Yet somewhere along the line Christianity took over Rome and became the Holy Roman Empire.

Christians have kind of a bad track record in meddling with the State and trying to merge their religion with State. In large part that is one of the major things that caused our forefathers to flee Europe and settle in the America's.

Now we all know what happened to the Holy Roman Empire, it eventually fell in 1802 in large part because Governments throughout Europe were tired of being dictated to by the Pope in Rome.

That was yet another of many reasons why our Forefathers wanted Church and State seperated. Church as the Christians have best proved over the long centuries tend to corrupt the State, and the State tends to corrupt the Church as evidenced in such things as the Church of England.

Neither Church nor State prosper in the long run when Church and State are melded together and merged.

The things you have to share are great things to share in a semminary, in a church, in a religious debate between and amongst the religiously minded.

They aren't things that should guide our foreign policy and these troops were on foreign soil...on behalf of the United States of America's Government.

War is about politics, and I think as someone who obviously studies the Bible a great deal, you would probably prefer religion be kept pure and not be about politics.

I can't imagine you would like your Congressmen or Senators formulating a religious bailout and trying to adminster religion the same way they do with our economy? I can't really imagine you would want a soldier doing that either.

One thing for sure is that in Rome, Christian chose to die enmasse rather than give up their principals. They could have fought against the Romans, taken up arms against them, tried to escape, or renounced their faith.

They didn't do either of those things, they lived by their principals and died by their principals, they did not kill anyone or want to kill anyone to escape that faith. They didn't do it out of weakness but strength of conviction.

The Romans did not understand the Christian faith because in many ways it was the opposite of what Rome and Romans stood for, unfettered greed, consumption, gluttony, and pleasures of all kind.

They looked at the Christians who shunned wealth, and espoused charity, giving their wealth away, and modesty, and temperment, and peacefulness as being basically insane. It seemed no way to live to the Romans of the day.

The Romans had many Gods and were free to worship which ever one(s) they chose, when they marched out to war they marched out for the Glory of the Roman State, they might have taken their individual Gods along with them to pray too, and to ask for strength and victories, but they weren't fighting the battles in that God's names, they were fighting the battle in that States name.

The Romans called this Stoicism, a determined sacrifice to State that they would gladly all accept for the glory and betterment of the State by facing harsh conditions such as war and violent death with courage and without complaint or remorse, and considered it an honor to die or suffer in the Roman State's name.

What gave Chrisitans there first inroads into a larger broader acceptance was the blood thirsty entertainment seeking Romans watching Christian Martyrs die in the hundreds and thousands in the Collesiums and Amphitheaters meeting their death in the very same Stoic fashion.

Christian Martyrs determined not to violate any of their God and Saviors commandments did not fight, try to escape, abandon their faith or cry out, but with quiet resolve suffered horrible and humiliating public deaths honoring the very principals that they had been taught.

That impressed the Romans and gained the Christians some respect despite their other un-Roman ways.

Even though God said vengence was his, and to turn the other cheek, and the meek shall inherit the earth it did not stop Justinian a power hungry Roman Emperor from extolling his troops to fight in Christ and God's name against his Rival Roman Emperor from the West in a battle in which Justinian's troops were succesful.

That very act of violence is what led and gave birth to the Holy Roman Empire and began the process of exporting Christianity by force of arms throughout the world.

So my question to you my friend is what happened. What happened between the time those first Christians who lived and died as Christ is reputed to have, as Martyrs strictly adhering to their principals and teachings and when Justinian extolled his troops to paint the sign of the Cross on their sheilds the morning of a great and deciding battle that would decide his earthly fate as a ruler? He claimed it was because God came to him in a dream...

My question is what happened to the absolute belief and inherent serene ability of those first Christians who at the time were simply a Cult and not universally accepted through centuries of warfare the Holy Roman Empire would wage against the people of all other faiths to accept the original cult's notion that their God was the only one and true God?

What happened that transformed those Christians from being the meek and obedient lambs that their scriptures and prohpets and his desciples extolled them to be, who were all so willing to die those impressive deaths of oppression and torture rather than abandon those principals?

My answer is their Religion met State, and State corrupted their Religion for the State's benefit, for Justinian's benefit, for Rome's benefit, not man's benefit.

16 centuries and hundreds of millions of lives later Justinian's war rages on, but where are the Christians? The Christians who died living by their principals and teachings, and didn't and wouldn't have killed for any reason let alone to force their teachings upon someone else?

What happened to the true Christians?

Explain that to me if you could. Not with some carefully selected flowery verse that explains the corruption of man.

A Christian would be preaching peace and ending these wars. A Christian would rather die than take another life, because that is what Christianity teaches and is all about.

If you are a Christian, and consider yourself to be a well versed in the Bible Christian, why are you not clamouring for this war to end, why are you not looking to forgive your Muslim brother what ever trespasses real and imagined, why when there is obviously so much wrong and dysfunctional within the Kingdom of your Christ, not lookign to fix it, as opposed to simply extolling that everyone should be a part of it, whether they want to or not, even under the penalty of pain of death, which is my friend what War is all about...killing, murdering, robbing...the most un-Christian things Christ could imagine.

My conclusion is your religion met politics, and has long been corrupted by politics and state...my suggestion is if you want your religion to ever be pure is to as our Founding Fathers wanted, to seperate it from State and Politics, and keep it well seperated from State and politics, so you don't have to compromise your God's laws and wishes, or your States laws and wishes.

I await your reply, respectfully. Thank you.



posted on May, 6 2009 @ 07:30 PM
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This is a classic case of someone quoting their opponents out of context for the purpose of recruiting.



posted on May, 6 2009 @ 07:51 PM
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Originally posted by CharlesMartel
This is a classic case of someone quoting their opponents out of context for the purpose of recruiting.


I guess it's true what they say "all is fair in love and war" evidently even when it's love for a religion, and a religious war!



posted on May, 7 2009 @ 01:39 AM
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NOTE:
the bibles have been destroyed.(according to the military) the military has officially condemned the practice of trying to convert the peoples of afghanistan.

not sure if that has been made clear yet. but i thought that that fact is important.



[edit on 7-5-2009 by ELECTRICkoolaidZOMBIEtest]



posted on May, 7 2009 @ 01:45 AM
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reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler
 


These people are not being forced to follow Jesus, they are just being informed about him. I don't see a problem with that.

If it was the other way round, I don't see a problem with that either.

What I do see a problem with is that Jesus wants mankind to love one another, and this rules war right out. However, we are so slow to learn that we keep waging war, right up until the end of the world. Hooray for us.

We had our chance and we blew it.



posted on May, 7 2009 @ 02:13 AM
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reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler
 





f I understand their binding code of service are not supposed to attempt to 'convert' our troops of a differing religion to their own denomination... So why is this Chaplain...who just happens to be the Senior Chaplain of all military Chaplains in the U.S. Armed Forces theatre of operations in Afghanistan/Pakistan who holds a military rank as all chaplains do in the military extolling the U.S. Soldiers presumed to be of many different denominations including ones that do not include Christ in their scriptures telling all U.S. Troops that they have a responsibility to bear witness to Christ to the Afghans? Why with such words as "Special Forces hunt humans, we hunt converts and souls, thats what we do, thats what we do, we hunt converts and souls".


I will only say this in response to your above post. The Chaplain was not converting, anyone. He was encouraging the troops to share the "Truth of the Gospel"

As believers this is what we are called to do. Not force any belief on you, or threaten you, but simply share the truth of what we believe and why! Period! Nothing more, nothing less. People CAN'T save people or convert people, only Christ has the power to do that. After, you hear the truth of Christ, it is up to you what you do with it, not up to anyone else, the decision is your responsibility either way.

If anyone ever tries to convert you by force,or make statements that they can save you that person is not of Christ!
This is one choice you and only you can make.



posted on May, 7 2009 @ 03:30 AM
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reply to post by paxnatus
 





I will only say this in response to your above post. The Chaplain was not converting, anyone. He was encouraging the troops to share the "Truth of the Gospel"


That would be a lot like the “Check is in the Mail”, “let’s do lunch” and the infamous “it was only driven to Church on Sundays by a little old lady from Pasadena”

Now in regards to the car the little old lady from Pasadena drove to church…if you are trying to sell me that car…as the best car for me…you better be driving one just like it yourself…otherwise I won’t believe it’s the best car for me.

Jesus was a lamb, and the guys wearing liquid gel body armor, with automatic assault rifles, side arms, and three kinds of explosive grenades clipped to their belts sure do kind of highlight why there are quotation marks around the “Truth of the Gospel”.

How on earth could I possibly see the Truth in something the person telling me about it sees no Truth in?

Jesus wasn’t a General but a Sheppard, whose flock was unarmed lambs, whose original followers chose to be martyred rather than turn to violence.




As believers this is what we are called to do. Not force any belief on you, or threaten you, but simply share the truth of what we believe and why! Period! Nothing more, nothing less. People CAN'T save people or convert people, only Christ has the power to do that. After, you hear the truth of Christ, it is up to you what you do with it, not up to anyone else, the decision is your responsibility either way.


Well…please don’t let those silly tribesmen in Afghanistan stop any of you non-believing, believers from becoming believing, believers, which would pretty much require those Christian troops to say a fair well to arms, follow their Lord’s teachings, and lead a peaceful forgiving life minus an M-16.

From where I am sitting Christ needs a little help in reminding you Christian faithful that not one of you I have ever met outside of the Pennsylvania Amish Country comes even remotely close to following the teachers of Christ.

I would suggest you go talk to them, which they would be happy to do, so they can share the gospel with you, but hey, no guns allowed, they are Christian people ok? They make great tasting deserts with all natural ingredients though, and are super friendly as long as you don’t ask them when they plan on getting a buggy that isn’t painted black.

My mom used to say, those who can…do, those who can’t teach, which is very similar and rhymes with preach…

Actions speak louder than words, and it’s not your words but actions that will condemn you.

I sure would like to know as a non-believer I seem to understand the meaning, basis, history and principals of your religion far better than the evangelistic lets not pay any attention to the Constitution because we don’t pay any attention to our Bible crowd too, but we love talking about it and reading it.




If anyone ever tries to convert you by force,or make statements that they can save you that person is not of Christ! This is one choice you and only you can make.


My choice is to wait for him to show back up and gently and politely ask you all why even when printed in 42 separate languages none of you can seem to read the book good enough to actually do anything it says.

The real sad fact his, and I do appreciate your loving sincerity, is the preaching simply has no value whatsoever by people who don’t follow its principals and rules and show a value in doing that by example.

You know my friend; the world has some serious problems, I think its time Christians started contributing to some solutions rather than too the problems.

We are at war in Afghanistan and it’s a foolish endeavor. No one wins when people fight. No one, we are at war nonetheless and good military doctrine says “know thy enemy”.

The reality is Muslims believe Jesus is a Holy Prophet and follow his teachings, they don’t believe he is the Son of God or in the Trinity, and the Jews sure don’t either.

I think the day Christians as a whole can follow its teachings, and demonstrate its values in their collective actions, that would be a good day to start preaching it.

The Amish have it down, star and flag from me to them on that. It means something to them, and they follow it religiously to a T.

The Mennonites are pretty darn close.

The rest of the Christian Sects…if it were a Race Track, I would go to a Football Game.

Frankly it doesn’t even look like the rest are in the race.

I know there aren’t any Amish or Mennonites in the Armed Services, they would face a firing squad first like the good honest and true to their faith people they are.



posted on May, 7 2009 @ 03:40 AM
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Originally posted by TheAgentNineteen
Exactly. The JOB of a Chaplain, Pastor, Minister, or Priest, ALL of whom are "Holy Servants of God", is to spread the word and teachings of which they preach. A Chaplain is a religious counsel, and therefore they have every right to promote religious views.


Thank God there are some people on this thread who actually get it. Guys, if you have a problem with people in the armed forces spreading Christianity, then you have a problem with military chaplains. The guy was just doing his job.

Also, the way the article words it, it seems like these men were ordered to spread Christianity. Perhaps 'GIs encouraged to...' would more accurate (but less sensational) wording. Show me where the chaplain, using his rank above the GIs, ordered them to spread Christianity and I'll show the outrage that others have shown in this thread.

Until then, calm down and focus on the rank of chaplain, rather than what this particular chaplain did.




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