United 93 Still Airborne After Alleged Crash According to ATC Radar, page 1

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Topic started on 4-5-2009 @ 12:06 AM by TrueAmerican

United 93 Still Airborne After Alleged Crash According to ATC Radar

pilotsfor911truth.org

Air Traffic Control (ATC) transcripts reveal United 93 as being airborne after it's alleged crash. Similar scenarios have been offered with regard to American 77 and American 11 showing an aircraft target continuing past its alleged crash point in the case of American 11, or past the turn-around point in the case of American 77. However, both these issues can be easily explained by "Coast Mode" radar tracking. This is not the case with United 93.

(visit the link for the full news article)

reply posted on 4-5-2009 @ 12:06 AM by TrueAmerican

Radar Coast Mode activates when a transponder is inoperative (or turned off) and primary radar tracking is lost, which enables ATC to have some sort of reference of the flight after losing radar coverage of the physical aircraft. When an aircraft target enters "Coast Mode", ATC is alerted in the form of a blue tag on the target as well as the tag letters switching to CST. ATC will readily recognize when an aircraft enters "Coast Mode".

According to National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) Flight Path Study, United 93 allegedly impacted the ground at 10:03am, September 11, 2001. The following transcript excerpts are provided by the Federal Aviation Administration. It is a conversation between Air Traffic Control System Command Center - East, Management Officers (ntmo-e) and other various facilities. The conversation is as follows in real time:

(relevant portions have been placed in bold)

1405 (10:05 a.m.)

ntmo-e: ok united ninety three we're now receiving a transponder on and he is at eighty two hundred feet

doug: now transponder and he's eighty two-hundred

ntmo-e: southeastbound still

doug: eighty two hundred feet and now getting a transponder on him

ntmo-e: correct

doug: ok buddy

10:06

ntmo-e: ok we've lost radar contact with united ninety three

There is more at the link, plus this picture of the coordinates given versus the claimed crash site:

i47.photobucket.com...

Woah. Ok, so at 10:05 AM, 2 minutes after the NTSB report says 93 crashed in Shanksville, they've got 93 on radar?

Pay particular attention to post number 5 in that story at P4911T:

United 93 transponder is recognized by Air Traffic Control as airborne after alleged impact time. Some have made the excuse this is due to Coast Mode tracking. ATC did not recognize any signs of CST (Coast Mode). Further confirmation that this was not any type of "Coast Mode" is that ATC also recognized United 93 reporting an altitude. The only way ATC could observe a reported altitude is if United 93 were squawking Mode C on the transponder, which means altitude reporting capability. Further confirmation comes in the form of latitude and longitude positions reported by ATC. N39 51 - W78 46 were reported as the last known radar position of United 93. It is unclear if the position is reported as Degrees, Minutes or Decimal, however, standard aviation terminology is in Degrees, Minutes. With that said, both positions are well past the alleged United 93 Crash site.

It is impossible for ATC to have observed United 93 transponder and altitude after the reported impact time and southeast of the crash site, if United 93 did in fact crash in Shanksville as the 9/11 Commission would have you believe.

Pilots For 9/11 Truth is an organization of aviation professionals from around the globe. The organization has analyzed Flight Data provided by the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB). The data does not support observed events. See Pandora's Black Box - Chapter Three - Flight Of United 93 for full in depth analysis of United 93 Flight Data Recorder (Black Box) data provided by the National Transportation Safety Board. The NTSB/FBI refuse to comment. Pilots For 9/11 Truth Core member list continues to grow.

Note also the post from Woody:

Here's the account of Mark Barnick, who was a supervisor at Cleveland Center. He refers to 9:41, after UA93 had completed its U-Turn over Cleveland and switched off the transponder for the first time:

UAL93's transponder was then lost or shut off and the radar tag went into coast. Other aircraft in the area verified that they had visual ontact with UAL93 and that it was still flying southeastbound. In order to follow the aircraft, John Werth started a new flight following tag on UAL93's primary radar target. No altitude information was available and all other controllers were advised to keep all aircraft well away from the target of UAL93.

Ever since I watched Dimaggio's (CIT) interviews with Wally, the county coroner that day, and compared them with the early reports from him, I just don't believe a word Wally says anymore about the crash site. I believe he was muzzled, since during Dimaggio's interviews he is extremely nervous, edgy, and his statements and story changed considerably from the early reports.

And now this? What gives here? Just more pieces of the puzzle falling into place to create the picture of grand treason, mass murder, and inside job.

pilotsfor911truth.org
(visit the link for the full news article)

[edit on Mon May 4th 2009 by TrueAmerican]

reply posted on 4-5-2009 @ 12:34 AM by GhostR1der

Ties in well with the 'missing' black boxes also.

Critical mass here we come!

reply posted on 4-5-2009 @ 08:39 AM by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

This has been a big question mark surrounding flight 93. Not only does ATC lose flight 93 at 10:06, but seismic recording show the impact to be around 10:06, and many ground witnesses still see flight 93 flying after the offical crash time of 10:03.

This is signifigant for one major reason: Flight 93's FDR cuts off at 10:03, leaving it's last three minutes unaccounted for.

This is still yet to be satisfactorily explained, I think.

reply posted on 4-5-2009 @ 08:23 PM by Reheat

Is there anyone with any common sense that believes the time an event is reported is the time that event occurred?

Do any of you commenting in this thread know the original source for that reputed conversation? Who were the individuals participating in the conversation, where did they work and what equipment was available to them?

Does anyone commenting know the ATC system well enough to be able to determine how this apparent time discrepancy might have occurred?

How do you suppose the aircraft crashed at some other location when TWO AIRCRAFT observed the reported crash site shortly after the crash, reported the description of the area (and in one case gave the lat/long coordinates) to ATC and those conversations are recorded and available on tape?

Do any of you realize that the reported seismic data was examined and the operator interviewed by the 911 Commission who found there was NO SIGNIFICANT seismic event?

This is just a beginning. Do you want more or are you more interested in perpetuating delusional ramblings of the idiots who originally posted and offered their analysis of this?

[edit on 4-5-2009 by Reheat]

[edit on 4-5-2009 by Reheat]

reply posted on 4-5-2009 @ 09:20 PM by TrueAmerican

Hi Ghost and Skadi,

Thanks for the comments. So true, to both of you.

But I guess an international group of professional pilots have nothing better to do than sit around and post false data on their website, eh?

They have such a burning desire to deceive us that they spent all that time and money doing extensive research, building websites/forums, and acquiring source documents like this (take note reheat):

www.scribd.com...

Geez, no wonder I don't fly anymore. Can't trust those lying pilots. Nope.

reply posted on 4-5-2009 @ 09:24 PM by bl4ke360

Originally posted by Reheat
Is there anyone with any common sense that believes the time an event is reported is the time that event occurred?

Do any of you commenting in this thread know the original source for that reputed conversation? Who were the individuals participating in the conversation, where did they work and what equipment was available to them?

Does anyone commenting know the ATC system well enough to be able to determine how this apparent time discrepancy might have occurred?

How do you suppose the aircraft crashed at some other location when TWO AIRCRAFT observed the reported crash site shortly after the crash, reported the description of the area (and in one case gave the lat/long coordinates) to ATC and those conversations are recorded and available on tape?

Do any of you realize that the reported seismic data was examined and the operator interviewed by the 911 Commission who found there was NO SIGNIFICANT seismic event?

This is just a beginning. Do you want more or are you more interested in perpetuating delusional ramblings of the idiots who originally posted and offered their analysis of this?

[edit on 4-5-2009 by Reheat]

[edit on 4-5-2009 by Reheat]

So what your saying is the crash was reported before it actually happened?

reply posted on 4-5-2009 @ 09:56 PM by Reheat

Originally posted by TrueAmerican...
But I guess an international group of professional pilots have nothing better to do than sit around and post false data on their website, eh? They have such a burning desire to deceive us that they spent all that time and money doing extensive research, building websites/forums, and acquiring source documents like this (take note reheat):
....
Geez, no wonder I don't fly anymore. Can't trust those lying pilots. Nope.

First of all thank-you for finding that transcript. My package is now near complete.

Your blatant "appeal to authority" fallacy is noted. I suppose that's why you didn't answer any of the questions I asked.

For your information that article was not done by an International Group of professional Pilots, the article was done by Cap'n King Air of pffft after another individual posted the transcript.

I wonder why that elite group of "truther" Professional Pilots haven't found a major error, in Cap'n King Air's analysis, which leads to false conclusions.

The answer is in the MFR and if you had answered my questions correctly you would know why the analysis of that transcript is WRONG.

I will be posting a refutation of this article in a little while. So, I suggest that you don't get to deep into this until you know and understand the full CORRECT story. There is nothing to see here that's not already known, but you'll have to wait for the correct analysis to be written.

In the meantime, I guess you do believe that the time an event is reported is the time that event occurred. I certainly hope you never get "mugged" and expect the event to be reported immediately, so that the police arrive on the scene in time to do anything about it.

ETA: BTW, you're probably still safe to fly as (fortunately) only an incredibly small fraction of the pilots in the world are members of that group. Thankfully, the overwhelming majority of pilots are smart enough not to be fooled by idiots.

[edit on 4-5-2009 by Reheat]

[edit on 4-5-2009 by Reheat]

[edit on 4-5-2009 by Reheat]

reply posted on 4-5-2009 @ 11:41 PM by turbofan

BTW, you're probably still safe to fly as (fortunately) only an incredibly small fraction of the pilots in the world are members of that group. Thankfully, the overwhelming majority of pilots are smart enough not to be fooled by idiots.

I love that weak excuse. The core list keeps growing; it's only a matter
of time that the balance will outweight the faceless, internet cowards.

Any chance we can get a name from you Reheat? You seem to have
this NoC all figured out, but your data is all wrong and has been exposed
in one of my co-produced videos.

Tell me, does coast mode RADAR reflect changes in altitude? What about
those final co-ordinates for UA93, where they in error as well? Just like
the witnesses?

reply posted on 5-5-2009 @ 12:12 AM by Craig Ranke CIT

Brand new release by Domenick DiMaggio tying his eyewitness research in with this explosive discovery in ATC transcripts:

YouTube Link

reply posted on 5-5-2009 @ 12:19 AM by Reheat

Originally posted by turbofan

*Snip*

Since you are an auto mechanic, please tell us what "coast mode radar" has to do with the transcript posted in the OP.

Also, please tell us that you have experience in front of a radar scope, which is optimized for high altitude air traffic trying to correlate an aircraft's radar blip (which has disappeared from your screen) with a lat/long position on the ground.

I am eagerly anticipating your explanations for these issues, NOT!

[edit on 5-5-2009 by Reheat]

Mod Note: General ATS Discussion Etiquette – Please Review This Link.

[edit on 5/5/2009 by semperfortis]

reply posted on 5-5-2009 @ 12:47 AM by ELECTRICkoolaidZOMBIEtest

yeah....uh... id really like a more reliable source. this seems really conspiracy theory-y. (no kidding lol ) im not sure what a 3 minute discrepancy really matters anyways. the missing black box is a bit of concern however.

[edit on 5-5-2009 by ELECTRICkoolaidZOMBIEtest]

reply posted on 5-5-2009 @ 12:54 AM by Reheat

Originally posted by ELECTRICkoolaidZOMBIEtest
the missing black box is a bit of concern however.

What missing black box? Both the FDR and the CVR (transcript only) are available with a simple search.

reply posted on 5-5-2009 @ 01:01 AM by Lebowski achiever

reply to post by Reheat

A bit scared you will bite my head off but I am genuinely curious. Where can I find all these transcripts and data that you speak of? *ducks*

reply posted on 5-5-2009 @ 01:03 AM by turbofan

Since you are an auto mechanic

Auto mechanic? says who? Once you get your facts straight, I might
begin to respect you. No...I wont, but it would be a start to getting your
act together.

When you answer my quesitons from the prior post, i'll gladly asnwer yours.

Here they are again:

Any chance we can get a name from you Reheat?

Tell me, does coast mode RADAR reflect changes in altitude?

What about those final co-ordinates for UA93, were they in error as well? Just like the witnesses?

[edit on 5-5-2009 by turbofan]

reply posted on 5-5-2009 @ 01:05 AM by rhunter

Originally posted by ELECTRICkoolaidZOMBIEtest
yeah....uh... id really like a more reliable source. this seems really conspiracy theory-y. (no kidding lol ) im not sure what a 3 minute discrepancy really matters anyways. the missing black box is a bit of concern however.

As with so many of the "anti-conspiracy" types that frequent this conspiracy discussion board, you might want to check the "facts" on your "missing black box."

Around 4:50 p.m. on September 13, investigators discover the flight data recorder from Flight 93, one of the plane’s two “black boxes.” It is buried about 15 feet down in the main crater at the crash site, near Shanksville, Pennsylvania. Around 8:25 p.m. the following evening, the other ‘black box’—the plane’s cockpit voice recorder—is found about 25 feet below ground in roughly the same spot. [Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, 9/13/2001; Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, 9/15/2001; Longman, 2002, pp. 217] The flight data recorder monitors airplane functions like its speed and altitude, while the cockpit voice recorder picks up conversations in the plane’s cockpit. [Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, 9/14/2001] Both are mounted in a plane’s tail. They are encased in very strong materials, like titanium, and insulated so as to withstand a crash impact. [BBC, 9/15/2001]

History Commons UA93 events

I don't really recommend Wikipedia for many subjects (especially controversial ones) but:

en.wikipedia.org...

Here is one reason why I don't recommend Wikipedia:

Flight Recorder Analysis - Wikipedia Displays Blatant Disinformation Again
www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply posted on 5-5-2009 @ 01:17 AM by weedwhacker

reply to post by Lebowski achiever

Lebowski, here are two (I have them printed up, am looking at them as I sit here...)

www.ntsb.gov...

that one is, as mentioned, a study of A/P Modes, Altitudes, Airspeed, Heading, Vertical Speed, Navigation Equipment and Fuel Flow/Consumption parameters.

www.ntsb.gov... (This one could be the wrong address, but is close).

It does NOT have the CVR transcript, just a compilation of various ATC recordings.

I found more detailed CVR at wikisource. It is not in the official NTSB format because it came out to the media from the April 2006 trial of Moussaui.

The CVR has at least a 30-minute continuous loop tape. In this case it starts at about 0931, ends at 1003 (Those are EDT. Add four for UTC/GMT)

reply posted on 5-5-2009 @ 01:40 AM by TrueAmerican

reply to post by Craig Ranke CIT

As usual, thanks for that great clip and all your research Craig and Domenick.

So tell me, what are we getting at here? If it didn't crash in Shanksville, are you going for sure with a shoot down, which may explain all the falling "confetti" debris, and is corroborated by the eyewitness testimony? And would also make sense why Rumsfeld make that screw up, slipping that bit about it being shot down?

Cause that's what it's sounding like to me. So what in the hell DID crash at Shanksville? Obviously it wasn't the "white plane" if it flew off into the sun. It seems that the white plane is what shot 93 down?

But what really makes me sick is that they would concoct this hero story of the passengers overtaking the hijackers as cover for the shoot down, and to make the families feel like their loved ones genuinely tried to do something about it- when they never had a chance

And that lady saying they tried to make her an "ambassador" but she said no because she knew they weren't telling it right. She's the one that deserves a medal, by God.

Man oh man, this is raising even more questions. What if all that confetti was planted too, and 93 flew off and did indeed land in Cleveland in that "secure" area? WTF happened to all those people on the plane? And WHERE is the fricken plane? (Note: this is pure conjecture. Yes I have heard the "Elizabeth Nelson" audio testimony from Project Camelot here: www.projectcamelot.net... A shoot down is looking almost certain at this point to me, although due to other things I am not so sure I believe Major Rick Gibney, the F-16 pilot who claimed to have fired the missile. And then what if this "Nelson" is a government plant herself to perpetuate the shoot down story to throw us off from a landing in Cleveland??)

Jesus, I was thinking we were at a dead end with 911, but it just keeps unraveling more and more. Amazing. And disgusting. They will pay. One day dammit, one day.

[edit on Tue May 5th 2009 by TrueAmerican]

reply posted on 5-5-2009 @ 02:15 AM by weedwhacker

reply to post by turbofan

turbo, I'm looking at Figure 4, UAL 93 VOR/DME & EFIS Activity. Has a track of the path, shows the end point (crash site) just about midway between the JST and IHD VORs (Johnstown and Indian Head).

JST is 40' 19' 00" / 78' 50' 02" (40.3167289/-78.8341656)

IHD is 39' 58' 27" / 79' 21' 30" (39.974217/-79.3583675)

Using GPS converter, and just eyeballing it, I found Shanksville. Looks like my interpolation put the site just West of Indian Lake.

(Based on the Fig. 4 the crash site is at about the same latitude as LRP; Lancaster, PA).

Anyway, my calculations, just an estimate. What is the other Lat/Long report??

As to the extra 3 minutes discrepancy..?

Glitch in the Center Radar software? Another airplane co-incidentally cycling through the assigned code while selecting another code? What I mean is, say a Gen Aviation airplane at 8,500 who calls for Flight Following? He'd be on an entirely different frequency. Just one thought....

reply posted on 5-5-2009 @ 02:20 AM by impressme

reply to post by rhunter

The FBI's motion continues:
"As Federal Defendant has been focused on the search for records and the preparation of an explanatory letter to Plaintiff, it has not yet prepared a formal response to the Amended Complaint."
Documents for 2:07-cv-01614-RCJ-GWF can be accessed at The PACER Service Center.
"The PACER Service Center is the Federal Judiciary's centralized registration, billing, and technical support center for electronic access to U.S. District, Bankruptcy, and Appellate court records."

We do not have the proof that these alleged black boxes belong to said airplanes I don’t care who found what, or who said what. I want proof that these black boxes belong to those planes, and so far the Feds are not going to give up any serial numbers. For the first time in American history four commercial aircraft crashed in one day and investigator never bothered to match alleged wreckage to said airplanes serial numbers, what were they covering up?

By document labeled "Specialist's Factual Report of Investigation Digital Flight Data Recorder" (United Airlines flight 93 - N591UA) it is revealed that the FDR's unique serial number identification information (traceable to a unique federally registered aircraft) is absent and that therefore, proper aircraft registration identification cannot be confirmed by this absent data.

Without the serial numbers we have “nothing” all we have is the FBI “SAID” this and the FBI “SAID” that. All of this erroneous data was provided to us was from whom? How about the FBI!

By FAA documents identified as "Summary of Air Traffic Hijack Events", pages 4 and 13, it is indicated that American Airlines flight 11 (N334AA) and United Airlines flight 175 (N612UA) were not transmitting proper transponder identification data at the time of their respective destructions and that therefore, proper aircraft registration identification cannot have been obtained from this absent or erroneous data.

By documents labeled "NOTES TO CHAPTER 1", page 456, of the "Final Report of the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States" (2004), it is indicated that "the CVRs and FDRs from American 11 and United 175 were not found" and that therefore, proper aircraft registration identification cannot have been obtained from this absent data.

By document labeled "Specialist's Factual Report of Investigation Digital Flight Data Recorder" (American Airlines flight 77 - N644AA), it is revealed that the FDR's unique serial number identification information (traceable to a unique federally registered aircraft) is absent and that therefore, proper aircraft registration identification cannot be confirmed by this absent data.

www.911blogger.com...

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