This is definitely one of the most interesting threads I have read on ATS yet! I never would have thought to postulate that the nazi bell could have indeed been a device to produce nuclear bomb materials. It does seem to logically make much more sense than other theories about it being an antigravity, or time machine...

So what exactly then might be the purpose for the "greek temple" in which suspended from the device was a concave mirror where purportedly "images from the past" were seen during the machines operations according to Greg Rowe, recalling overheard conversations between his father and Otto Cerny?

Also, your theory seems to explain the mysterious disappearances of up to 3000 people including SS personnel and scientists just prior to capture by Pattons 3rd army. According to a 1997 edition of the magazine "Wissenschaft ohne Grenzen" these people including their women and children, all of "pure Aryan origins", disappeared down into an underground facility in the Jonas Valley called "Burg". After the people were inside, the entrance was then sealed with explosives.

Were these people part of the nazi manhattan project mentioned in this thread?

Originally posted by Spoonz
Again i say ridiculous,

Does anyone remember the Manhattan Project? Ok, Remember Oak Ridge.
The site that covered 60,000 acres employed tens of thousands and used
1/6th the United States electrical output to run the site. All to produce Uranium-235. Yet the super Nazi's with a "bell" approximately 9 feet wide and 12 to 15 feet high. Were managing to get the job done. First it was "Red Mercury" then Anti-Gravity and now they were enriching Uranium. What next?

No, that bell obviously didn't get the job done or we'd be writing in german. But you need to make a working prototype first, and then scale it up (by making hundreds). The USA later investigated production of U-233 with different methods, and none was practically feasible.

U-233 has an even higher spontaneous fission rate than plutonium and a higher critical mass, making weapon design more difficult. Furthermore, it nearly always has U-232 contamination whose decay chains are serious gamma emitters and makes it very dangerous to work on, much more so than U-235 or Pu-239.

Does anyone know how electrogravitics or gravity control could be used to make processing uranium easier?

I don't know much about science but from what I gather it seems you could use electrogravitics in a particle accelerator and make it much much more powerful/.. either by speeding up the particles directly or by making magnets super conducting.

From what I have read about the great Giza pyramid it was a huge electrical device... a giant capacitor using piezo electric quartz stones to create charges which is how TTBrown said you create electrogravitics.

Is it possible that binary stars use a process like this to eject super high energy particles like we detect from Orion constellation or Cygnus?

The Giza pyramids seem to be modeled on one or both of these constellations and both eject super high energy particles and ccosmic rays. The great pyrmid also is an 8 sided pyrmid.. could this indicate a binary star? 2 sets of pyrmids in one? And therefore the greta pyramid was recreating this binary star effect?

Originally posted by mbkennel
No, that bell obviously didn't get the job done or we'd be writing in german. But you need to make a working prototype first, and then scale it up (by making hundreds). The USA later investigated production of U-233 with different methods, and none was practically feasible.

USA never explored production of U-233 by transmutation with spherical Tokamaks, only from reactor waste.

U-233 has an even higher spontaneous fission rate than plutonium and a higher critical mass, making weapon design more difficult.

...you say with higher critical mass?

Critical Mass

Without reflector

U-233 ... 11 kilograms
Pu-239 ... 9 kilograms
U-235 ...52 kilograms

with Beryllium reflector

U-233 ... 8.4 kilograms
Pu-239 ... 7.5 kilograms
U-235 ... 21 kilograms

In any case the Schumann / Trinks tactical nuclear weapon developed by Nazi Germany only required a mere 150 grams of U-233, not 8 or 11 kilograms.

Furthermore, it nearly always has U-232 contamination whose decay chains are serious gamma emitters and makes it very dangerous to work on, much more so than U-235 or Pu-239.

mbkennel, your post makes so many false assumptions and then discusses your assumptions as if addressing the real issue. You do not address the real issue.

Uranium 232 contamination arises whilst trying to harvest Uranium 233 from a nuclear reactor. Not from a particle accelerator.

In a reactor one cannot prevent excessive irradiation of the Thorium 230 present in all Thorium ores which leads to production of Uranium 232. In a particle accelerator however production of uranium 232 is less than one part per million and in that situation the milirem dose rate per hour is similar to that of weapon grade Plutonium (ie 97% Pu239).

According to an eyewitness Joachim Ibrom the Nazi Bell device at Ludwikowice was operated barely 60-90 seconds at most. Exposure time was so short that there was no opportunity to convert Thorium 232 into anything other than Protactinium 233.

This is the process:

Th(232,90) + n → Th(233,90), then:
Th(233,90) → Pa(233,91) + e-, and:
Pa(233,91) → U(233,92) + e-

Naturally occurring Thorium ore is 99.08% isotopically pure Thorium 232. Most of the balance is Th230. Thus in the absence of significant impurity, there is negligible chance of breeding anything else, but Pa233.

To be viable for nuclear weapons U232 contamination must be below 0.56%, thus even nuclear reactors can produce viable weapons grade U233.

Pressurized light-water-reactors fueled with LEU-Thorium fuel at high burn-up (70 MWd/kg) produce U-233 with U-232 contamination levels of about 0.4 percent which is still viable for manufacturing Atomic weapons.

Dosage Rates

These are accurate figures for radiation dosage from Uranium 233

Weapon Grade Pu-239 ...0.0013 rem/hr
Reactor Grade Pu-239 ... 0.0082 rem/hr
U-233 containing 1 ppm U232 ....0.0013 rem/hr
U-233 containing 5 ppm U232 ....0.059 rem/hr
U-233 containing 100 ppm U232 ....1.27 rem/hr
U-233 containing 1 percent U232 ----1.27 rem/hr

At one part per million U232 it takes 380 hours of exposure to reach the annual safe exposure limit of 5 rem and even at 100ppm U232 it still takes 4 hours to reach maximum safe exposure.

Freshly separated U-233 with one part per million U-232 is actually safer to handle than weapons grade Plutonium because it takes almost 2 years for Thorium 228 contamination to build up. In any case Nazi Germany had unlimited supply of slave labour from concentration camps to fabricate nuclear weapons.

Why did Nazis abandon centrifuges?

By early 1943 Dr Hans Martin and Dr Kuhn developed a thermal convection centrifuge with Krupp Industries at Hamburg. Later after the war several engineers who worked on this thermal convection centrifuge were taken to the Soviet Union to replicate the device for the Soviets. One of those men Guernot Zippe, a German aircraft engineer later defected to the West where he shared that technology for commercial reward. That centrifuge which is the most advanced and efficient in the world, became known as the Zippe centrifuge, but in fact it was a Nazi invention. It was 3,000 percent more efficient at enriching Uranium 235 than the method used by the Manhattan Project thus cheaper to operate too. It had maximum priority for access to strategic raw materials and manufacturing.

The Nazis had this incredible technology before May 1943 yet failed to put it into mass production ...Why?

Because the Nazi Bell particle accelerator was even more efficient, cheaper and effective. That's why.

The Nazis did not need a huge and costly equivalent to the Manhattan Project because they had cheaper and smarter technology.


:?)

Originally posted by 8311-XHT
Does anyone know how electrogravitics or gravity control could be used to make processing uranium easier?

I don't know much about science but from what I gather it seems you could use electrogravitics in a particle accelerator and make it much much more powerful/.. either by speeding up the particles directly or by making magnets super conducting.

From what I have read about the great Giza pyramid it was a huge electrical device... a giant capacitor using piezo electric quartz stones to create charges which is how TTBrown said you create electrogravitics.

Is it possible that binary stars use a process like this to eject super high energy particles like we detect from Orion constellation or Cygnus?

The Giza pyramids seem to be modeled on one or both of these constellations and both eject super high energy particles and ccosmic rays. The great pyrmid also is an 8 sided pyrmid.. could this indicate a binary star? 2 sets of pyrmids in one? And therefore the greta pyramid was recreating this binary star effect?

Same old clueless posts pushing the same old false theories about the Nazi Bell

I don't know what you're smoking but that must be some A-grade hooch. I doubt your feet have touched the floor in years which may explain that passion you have for anti gravity

Must admit I like this explanation of where German inventiveness was heading. They certainly tried to make the most and best of what they had, not saying it was good for others.

How early had they this knowledge do you think?

War always brings out the inventors in a nation.

Assuming the US was so aware of the power of atomic weapons, it would explain their decision to help the Allies, as, if Germany had been able to create a small bomb that allowed greater range for the V2 it might have put the US in danger.

I wonder if the UK was so aware? Were they still on the more esoteric path of a Europe free of Nazi influence?

Somewhere there must be a mass of "spy" messages.

Is it possible that the US in their development programme had an idea and that that idea was going to be hte prevalent one, thus they simply ignored/ignore a simpler and maybe better method of enrichment?

I agree Dowot that somewhere there are a lot of spy messages. I think the real messages were passed by a private company called the Pond which conducted espionage activities as a rival to the OSS on USA's behalf. I think you will also find that General Electric was deeply involved in secret negotiations in conjunction with project ORDCIT.

I have a suspicion that banker and Swedish diplomat Raoul Wallenberg who was connected with Allen Dulles of the OSS actually worked on behalf of the OSS and secretly negotiated between USA and the SS.

Private organisations have no obligation to archive their secret communications so we may never know.

You asked where the Germans got their ideas from?

before WW2, Germany was the most scientifically advanced industrialised country on earth. At the end of the war her scientists were rounded up and recruited to serve the United States. USA used the ALSOS mission to race across Europe looting all the patents they could find. Of course this was denied, but in fact all war booty was supposed to be divided by the victorious Allies and USA made a point of keeping their treasure trove of patents secret and then building the US postwar economy on many of those technologies.

Specifically about Nazi Bell Technology



Dr Adolf von Engel and Prof Max Steenbeck first wrote about this particle accelerator concept in 1934 in the publication Elektrische Gasentladungen.

Professor Steenbeck and Dr Rudenberg applied for the first patent for a particle accelerator DE 656378 on the 1st March 1933, issued 4 February 1938

A patent application was made by Swiss Nazi scientist Dr Walter Dallenbach for a particle accelerator which today we would call a spherical Tokamak on 12 March 1935. That patent number DE 665619 was granted 8 September 1938. Professor Max Steenbeck working under contact for Seimens with Dr Heinz Eiwald developed a prototype machine at Berlin Lichterfelde. It is recorded in Eiwald's notes and published research papers.

Dr Rolf Wideroe an acclaimed scientist who has worked on CERN wrote about the Seimens particle accelerator in his autobiography. Wideroe was one of those who personally removed the Seimens accelerator from Dresden after that city was bombed in Feb 1945 and delivered it to Patton's Army at Burggrub. You can read about it from Wideroe's autobiography.

Another place you can read about the particle accelerator beam weapon surrendered to Patton at Burggrub is in the book "Science, Technology and National Socialism," a serious piece of research reading written by Monika Renneberg and Mark Walker, at page 266.

In 1943 Steenbeck breached security by publishing details in the science magazine Naturewissenschaften issue 19/20 (number 31) page 234. In English the title read "Acceleration of Electrons by Electric Vortex Fields." In that article Steenbeck mentions a "secret project at Seimens" for a machine built in 1935/36.

Prof Steenbeck applied on 7 March 1935 on behalf of Seimens for a particle accelerator Patent number DE 698867 which was published 6 December 1940. The same device was also granted an Austrian Patent number 153324.

Dallenbach built another particle accelerator machine at Bisingen specifically for transmuting Thorium into Protactinium for the Nazi A-bomb project.

OSS files refer to interviewing an engineer named Nagglestein in Switzerland in November 1944 who disclosed the work of Prof Otto Hahn on Thorium at his laboratory in Tailfingen next to Bisingen. There is a detailed report with drawings of the Bisingen device by the engineer Carl Heinrich Florenz Muller (CHF Muller) who built it for Dallenbach which are in Switzerland at the ETH Library in Zurich. (entitled "Uber die Elektroneenerzeugung im Strahlentransformator" ETH Lib Hs903:47). Dallenbach's Patent can be found dated 1943 in G-209 of the so called Gouldsmitt Papers captured by ALSOS at Strassbourg University in late 1944.

OSS files also refer to Dallenbach's particle accelerator which Heisenberg called a Super Klystron. It was Heisenberg who recommended Dallenbach to Speer and arranged backing from AEG for the project at Bisingen. For evidence one could read evaluations by Oppenheimer of the Manhattan Project concerning the OSS report of November 1944 on Dallenbach's particle accelerator project which are held in NA RG77, MED Foreign Intelligence Unit, entry 22, box 166, folder 32.24

At Farm Hall in Allied captivity Dr Karl Wirtz was secretly recorded referring to the same device which could modulate it's frequency to the oscilation frequency of an atom. Farm Hall recordings were classified top secret until relatively recently.

A good source to read is "Fusion: the search for endless energy," by Robin Herman, page 40


:?)

Thanks sy for that info, I guess you have been researching this for some time.

How far do you think the Germans got?

Would there be an residue evidence for any of this, you mention underground workshops, would there be any residue radioactivity to the process that could be measured now?

How would the German economy pay for this research, by the war end the coffers must have been rather empty?

If Germany had made a bomb, would not there have been some tests somewhere, again is there any residue of them, I presume they would have had to hold these test above ground?

So many questions, sorry.

Originally posted by dowot
Thanks sy for that info, I guess you have been researching this for some time.

How far do you think the Germans got?

Since 1996...

An Austrian nuclear scientist under the Nazis named Lachner claimed from retirement in Argentina that the Nazis built 15 nukes of which two were captured by the Soviets. These were tactical nukes with about 0.5 kiloton yields.

I see no reason why they could not have achieved this particularly as their design for a nuclear warhead is the method, with variations of the same theme, now utilised for all tactical nuclear warheads. By this I mean using still classified methods to detonate fissile Uranium/Plutonium at quantities below critical mass.

Especially with terrorism these days, it is time there was an honest debate about nuclear weapons and what Nazi Germany achieved. It is time the world community owned up to and recognised that with Nazi A-bomb technology any crank with a home made cyclotron some Thorium, Lithium and Dueterium could over the space of a year build their own tactical nuclear weapon. We need that debate before the world can come to the right conclusion to ban all nuclear weapons. It must be done by an intelligent concensus.

Would there be an residue evidence for any of this, you mention underground workshops, would there be any residue radioactivity to the process that could be measured now?

The first such underground laboratory was at Gandau airfield on the outskirts of Breslau (Wroclaw) which is now under a block of apartment buildings.

The Nazi Bell was shifted in November 1944 and relocated at Wenceslas mine a month later in a giant complex called Reise. Although the fleeing Nazis tried to flood and collapse various underground complexes they were reopened and examined by Soviet and Polish forces in 1946 before being flooded again. The Soviets asked themselves the same question and undoubtedly somewhere in Russia there is a huge file in their archives on this subject.

Immediiately after the war according to annecdotal evidence there may have been radiactive contamination of the carbon since Wenceslas was a coal mine. If the chambers in which the bell was operated were located samples from the walls might indicate some radioactive decay chains, however today at hiroshima Uranium is undetectable now above background levels.

How would the German economy pay for this research, by the war end the coffers must have been rather empty?

The entire V-2 project was funded on Wall St by General Electric who raised a loan for an Osram Lamp Factory in Brazil. Osram was a subsidiary of AEG which, in turn was owned by General Electric. AEG bought the rights to manufacture the V-2 rocket and sold the technology to USA before the first V-2s hit London.

General Electric was also involved in a scam to sell Tungsten Carbide to the Allies ten times more expensively than they did to Germany. Throughout WW2 the massive profits of a company called Carballoy were funnelled to Switzerland for use by the Nazis in their war against USA and other allies.

The entire Reise complex was the biggest single wartime investment by Nazi Germany and was on a scale of investment similar to the Manhattan Project. People forget that and there had to be some compelling reason for such huge investment.

If Germany had made a bomb, would not there have been some tests somewhere, again is there any residue of them, I presume they would have had to hold these test above ground?

There are disputed claims of radioactive residues at the Bug Isthmus of Rugen and also at Ohrdruf. The PTR institute took samples at Ohrdruf and could neither rule it in or out.

There were radioactive residues at both sites. Critics claim these are residue of fall out from Soviet Arctic tests or from Chernobyl fall out. The truth is PTR did not make exhaustive tests for the right indicators. I can tell you that from reading the reports I have there is reason to believe Ohrdruf radioactive residues did not show signs of Xenon poisoning. Chernobyl built up massive Xenon poisoning just before it exploded abd PTR found no evidence of that at Ohrdruf, but did find other radioactive traces. mainly Caesium 137 and Cobolt 60.

So many questions, sorry.

That's okay debates bring out the facts

Originally posted by sy.gunson

Same old clueless posts pushing the same old false theories about the Nazi Bell

I don't know what you're smoking but that must be some A-grade hooch. I doubt your feet have touched the floor in years which may explain that passion you have for anti gravity

I posted proof of electrogravitics.. a declassified government document no less... what proof have you posted?

Are you a disinfo agent? Or are you just projecting your own issues on to me?

Nick Cook, who is one of the most highly respected aviation journalists around, is convinced electrogravitics are real as well..

Who do you have backing your genius theory?

Originally posted by 8311-XHT

Originally posted by sy.gunson

Same old clueless posts pushing the same old false theories about the Nazi Bell

I don't know what you're smoking but that must be some A-grade hooch. I doubt your feet have touched the floor in years which may explain that passion you have for anti gravity

I posted proof of electrogravitics.. a declassified government document no less... what proof have you posted?

Are you a disinfo agent? Or are you just projecting your own issues on to me?

Nick Cook, who is one of the most highly respected aviation journalists around, is convinced electrogravitics are real as well..

Who do you have backing your genius theory?

edit on 5-3-2012 by 8311-XHT because: (no reason given)

ha-ha

Nick Cook came to me begging me for information for his book. Your theories are a joke.

Originally posted by sy.gunson
ha-ha

Nick Cook came to me begging me for information for his book. Your theories are a joke.

Your theory would have made THE dumbest book in the history of books...

"The Nazi's used the nuclear bomb as a BARGAINING CHIP to save their butts at the end of the war rather than just using the freaking bomb..." LOL

Maybe Nick Cook is writing a new book on disinfo agents...

When are you writing your book by the way? LOL Like never? That is why you are here on your 2 page thread..

Hey Forum!!!

I find this topic, specifically the 'Nazi Bell' extremely fascinating, I have read Farrel's 'Reich of The Black Sun' and Nick Cook's 'The Hunt for Zero Point', both of which touch with varying degrees on the matter. I wonder if anyone can point me in the right direction for more of the same?

Also, I wonder if the 'Thermal Centrifuge' mentioned above is related to or indeed the same thing as the 'Isotope Sluice' invented by Erich Bagge? I have always wondered why, if his approach was so far superior to the calutrons at Oak Ridge it was never used by declared nuclear states or indeed those aspiring to become so.

I think the main problem when it comes to 'beleif' in the 'Nuclear Nazi' motif is that the very specific route pursued by Britain and America towards an A-bomb at Los Alamos has largely become considered the ONLY way it could be done. Perhaps that really is the case when you are looking at mass-production and stockpiling, however the almost 'kitchen sink' methods which became more and more attractive to Germany as the war wore on could indeed at a small scale eclipse them in efficiency.