What has changed?

I was thinking over the weekend and I came to a realization.

What has happened to the American public?

In previous wars, religous places were bombed, shelled, machine gunned, etc all of the time and there was never a mention of how the US had choosen to launch a war against any particular reason. However, becuase we have attacked a few mosques we are now branded as being in a holy war against Islam. Yet now we have people in America who claim that we have launched a war against Islam with our Wars on Terrorism/Iraq.

I, for the record, do not support attacking religous structures. Nor do I think that we have launched a war against any religion. Sometimes it cannot be avoided, just like in WW II.

Is this something that is coupled with the increase in weapons precision? In WW II entire areas had to be bombed in order to destroy a single target, hence the destruction of entire city blocks.

Yet we, as a coutry, were willing to accept it then and not accuse anyone about lauching a religous war.

Is there a real difference between attacking a Islamic mosque vs a christian church (or synagogue, etc)?

Any thoughts?

you have a good point there. i don't know why people are saying that we are in a holy war with Islam. I don't call accidentily (sp?) bombing a mosque war. If we were at war with Islam and not with terrorsts I think every Mosque in Iraq would have been reduced to rubble by now. I think people are just talking about something that they know very little about.
Nice post!

Here's what I see is the problem.

1. All Muslims are not terrorists. However, all of the hijackers were Muslims. All Arabs are not terrorists, but all the hijackers were Arab.

2. The Muslims have made this into a holy war, not us. They have called for "jihad" on America and her allies.

3. Now, they hide in their places of worship, shoot at us and scream when we shoot back.

I think the enemy originally believed (right after 9/11) that we would not fight back. Why...because it would look like we were fighting a religion and not terrorists.

The sad thing is that they (the enemy) have some people in America believing this.

As Americans, we need to remember who the enemy is and destroy them even if they hide in a mosque, quote religous scripture, and claim it is a holy war.

We have discussed this in our home recently. I think we are afraid to even accidentally bomb mosques in Iraq because we are so afraid of offending someone. It's the I'm-not-short-I'm-vertically-challenged demon: political correctness.
We would not be posting here today if those some processes were in fashion during WWII!

So, they can shot aat us from in the mosques, and we can only sit on our thumbs? Kinda like Vietnam, they shot as us from Laos, but we couldn't shoot back.

An attack on any religious site is persived as an aberration depending in wish site of the globe you are and wish religious believe you were brought up with. If an Islamic church is attack here in US. is seem by American cristians people as you deserve it, the president will condemn an appologize and life will go on, If the attack was a cristian church here in US. inmediatly will be conected to an Islamic terrorist group against our religious right and we probably will bomb any islamic country for it. If the attack was out of US. retaliation against cristians by islamics group will be the agenda of the day and if is a cristian church Israel will bomb palestine again and again and again. (Get my point) anything just to bomb each other on another country in the name of religion.

Originally posted by sosuemetoo
2. The Muslims have made this into a holy war, not us. They have called for "jihad" on America and her allies.

That is not true, you have Americans calling this a holy war as well. Why would they do that unless they believed it?

I would not ever claim that we (USA) have launched a holy war.

My claim is that we are being drawn into one.

Like it or not we are and will be forced into fighting this enemy where ever they hide, and where ever they take us.

We have no options in this war and the enemy wants the world to see this as a "jihad" or holy war.

We will have to fight this enemy, you cannot deny that the core of the enemy we are fighting is Islam.

Originally posted by COOL HAND

Originally posted by sosuemetoo
2. The Muslims have made this into a holy war, not us. They have called for "jihad" on America and her allies.

That is not true, you have Americans calling this a holy war as well. Why would they do that unless they believed it?

I should have been more specific. I apologize. Maybe this is better?

"2. Bin Laden has called for "jihad" against America and her allies. President Bush has repeatedly said that this is not a holy war it is a war against terrorism.

Originally posted by UM_Gazz
We will have to fight this enemy, you cannot deny that the core of the enemy we are fighting is Islam.

I believe Islam is not our enemy. However, Islam seems to have made us their enemy.

In previous wars, never has the public had such clear and unfettered access to events taking place on a daily basis through the course of a war. More accurately, never has the public been force-fed the daily occurances of battle.

Also, never has our enemy had such access to broadcast facilities and outlets such as al-Jazeera...

Understand this about our enemy in this war: They have been learning the best methods and means of using the media angle of war for a long time. Every hijacking, every terrorist attack, every hostage crisis is little more than a publicity stunt. Historically, and I mean way, way back, terrorism has never effectively produced the results intended. It is only within the last few decades that it has made an impact on people. This is because terrorists greatest tool is a camera with a reporter in front of it. We just saw an entire country concede to the demands of terrorists by removing their troops from a region, or agree too, at least.

And on the bombing of Mosques, personally, screw the Geneva conventions and the Law of Land Warfare. Our current enemy has no respect for them, and thus they are only a combat liability for our purposes. Observe the conventions for the fair treatment of prisoners, but try real, real hard not to take any in the first place. These people care nothing for honor, they use their own people as human shields, and have little respect for human life otherwise. They are literally from an ancient time and are what I would consider 'savages'. They need to evolve socially about 1400 years before I would consider them otherwise, but unfortunately their interpretation of the Koran only ensures that they will continue on their current path and plan of total eradication of every infidel on the planet. Which suggests to me an actual lack of psychic evolution as well, considering all they have in the way of armament is 50 year old kalashnikovs and some limited IED experience.

The solution to this problem is total, complete, utter eradication of these stooges. They will never give up their backwardly unproductive world-view, and with a goal of global domination and no means with which to reach it, they will only prove annoying for the rest of the world as long as they exist. The world needs to band together and destroy these hacks before they get hold of a nuke and use it.

We even need a new word for this one... How about MORONICIDE?!!!

DeltaChaos

Originally posted by sosuemetoo

Originally posted by UM_Gazz
We will have to fight this enemy, you cannot deny that the core of the enemy we are fighting is Islam.

I believe Islam is not our enemy. However, Islam seems to have made us their enemy.

I too believe that Islam is not our enemy. I disagree that Islam has made us our enemy. The extremists are the ones who are making us their enemies. Once they are gone, then the religous fervor will probably wither and die.

IMO, Bush and many other religious idiots have made this just as much a religious war as Muslims, by saying "God bless America" all the damn time. Does anyone think that's going to make it less religious of a war? That's one phrase I am SICK and TIRED of seeing and hearing. They're implying that "god" is on their side. As if "god" has given them permission to murder people who murder, for whatever reason. This is hypocrisy at its worst, IMO. Not much has changed, but we are much more well informed about what gets blown up, and who gets killed, with all the media coverage that didn't exist in WWII.

[Edited on 4-26-2004 by Satyr]

Originally posted by Satyr
IMO, Bush and many other religious idiots have made this just as much a religious war as Muslims, by saying "God bless America" all the damn time. Does anyone think that's going to make it less religious of a war?

That's one phrase I am SICK and TIRED of seeing and hearing. They're implying that "god" is on their side. As if "god" has given them permission to murder people who murder, for whatever reason. This is hypocrisy at its worst, IMO.

You can't blame him for that, he did not invent that phrase.

Besides, don't the terrorist claim that Allah is on their side just as much, if not more? They also claim that Allah will punish their enemies. When was the last time that you heard anyone say that God would punish the terrorists? The closest I have heard to that is that God will judge them.

Originally posted by COOL HAND
You can't blame him for that, he did not invent that phrase.

I didn't claim he did, but he's not helping by injecting his religion into the war, nor is anyone else.

Besides, don't the terrorist claim that Allah is on their side just as much, if not more?

Does that make it ok for us, then? Don't be ridiculous.

If our troops are being shot at, I don't care if the shots are coming from a Mosque or a Church. They have the right to protect themselves.

I mean, what are the Coalition troops supposed to respond with? Harsh language?


.

Originally posted by Satyr

Besides, don't the terrorist claim that Allah is on their side just as much, if not more?

Does that make it ok for us, then?

Don't be ridiculous.

I am not trying to be ridiculous, I am just pointing out that they use it as much, if not more, than we do. Shouldn't the world be condemning them for using religion as a context for attacking?

The Iraqis (muslims) are screaming about this because they are weak.

If they were kicking our butts over here, do you think they would pause for half a second before blasting a Lutheran church to smithereens if it held American GI's? Lets be real here. The weak and powerless will use anything to obstruct, harrass, and demoralize their enemies, including propaganda about the deliberate targeting of religious structures.

They are uneducated, fanatical and weak.

I ask you, do you think you could find on this planet 1 true christian, regardless of denomination, that would allow 1 innocent person to die in order to save, lets say, the cathederal of Notre Dame? Or St. Peter's Basilica? We know that in reality they are just buildings. Yes, they are beautiful, amazing houses of worship, but they are not worth the life of even 1 person. This may be a strictly christian-oriented view, as Christ's original ministry was one of wandering, but I can't help but feel anybody who is willing to die for the sake of four walls and a roof has a few screws loose.

They are grabbing at straws, and know that our secular respect for other faiths is one of our weaknesses they can exploit.

Originally posted by COOL HAND
I am not trying to be ridiculous, I am just pointing out that they use it as much, if not more, than we do. Shouldn't the world be condemning them for using religion as a context for attacking?

First, you're practically saying it's ok for us, since they do it. Then you think we should condemn them for it? Maybe you should look up the word "hypocrite". Secondly, while they are very religious people, I don't buy that that's their entire reason for attacking us. They attacked us because of our meddling foreign policies. I hear our president keep saying that we have an "obligation to lead the world", or "to make the world a better place". Bullocks!!! We have no such obligation at all! It's that misconception that's gotten us into this #. Manifest destiny anyone?

Originally posted by Satyr

Originally posted by COOL HAND
I am not trying to be ridiculous, I am just pointing out that they use it as much, if not more, than we do. Shouldn't the world be condemning them for using religion as a context for attacking?

First, you're practically saying it's ok for us, since they do it. Then you think we should condemn them for it? Maybe you should look up the word "hypocrite".

Secondly, while they are very religious people, I don't buy that that's their entire reason for attacking us. They attacked us because of our meddling foreign policies. I hear our president keep saying that we have an "obligation to lead the world", or "to make the world a better place". Bullocks!!! We have no such obligation at all! It's that misconception that's gotten us into this #. Manifest destiny anyone?

First, I clearly stated in my first post:
I, for the record, do not support attacking religous structures. Nor do I think that we have launched a war against any religion. So I fail to see why you branded me a hypocrite.

Secondly, I do not think that we should comdemn them for that. There are already more than enough things to condemn them for.

Religion is the reason for their attacking us. Their religous leaders are the ones calling for a holy war. Do you not read/watch the news at all?? Would they attack us if the leaders did not call for it, we will never know.

Religion is not the sole reason they're attacking us. If you think so, you need to do a little studying. We've pretended to be friends with many of these people, then turned and stabbed them in the back. You can only do that so many times before someone gets pissed off. Why do you suppose it's us? Do you think maybe it has something to do with the US #ing with them constantly for, what, 70 years or so? Nah, couldn't be. They just hate us because we're going to heaven, or we have big screen TV's, porno, SUV's, golf clubs, you name it! There are a million things to blame it on, right? Unfortunately, it's false. People don't kill themselves attacking others just because they have TV's, or believe in something else. They attack when they have been screwed with, influenced, forced to do things they don't want to do, invaded repeatedly, when their enemies have been our friends because it was convenient...etc. That last one is probably the biggest reason.

I labeled you a hypocrite because you used the "Well, they do it!" argument in defense of those who use religious comments in reference to this war. If you fail to see the significance of the two, I'm afraid I can't explain it in such a way that you'll comprehend.

Actually, I do support attacking religious structures. All of them. These people, no matter which religion, are primitive fools....the cause of most of the ignorance and ugliness in our world, IMO. The worst thing is, they don't even see it that way.

[Edited on 4-26-2004 by Satyr]