The Wrath of God

lilblam: I have never said anything about you, but thanks for mindlessly throwing me into a group.

I have no problem with people having different opinions. My problem is the monotony of repetitive posts. These are the same topics recycled over and over with exactly the same posters saying the exactly the same things. I get tired of trying to defend or explain the same topics over and over so I just stop posting altogether.

I come to ATS a lot less than I use too for this very reason. I use to visit almost on a daily basis, now I'm down to once or twice a week tops.

This board gets old fast.

*jakko points at the ignore option next to every post*
Just ignore repeaters, I know exactly what you mean and ignoring them is the only thing that helps.

There are plenty of references to the wrath of God throughout the Old Testament. Read up a bit. He had much rath as he destroyed millions of people several times as revenge.

In the Old Testament, the bible refers to God as vengeful. He temps and tests people personally to trick them into sinning, and yet punishes those who fall for his trap. He created hell, and sends people there. That is wrath.

Fear God above anything else and you'll be alright. It is written many times in scripture to fear him and it is not silly to fear an unknown presence. Fear God is the post powerful message of the bible IMO.

Umm... Actually... The religious laws you say are "currently in our law systems" mostly lay in the 10 Commandments. The 10 Commandments (with the exception of those that deal with worship) are reasonable laws that can be found anywhere, in any civil society, etc.

"Do not kill, do not rape, do not steal: these are principles which every man of every faith can embrace."
- Boondock Saints

So I don't really know where you're trying to get with what you said. Our civil laws are the same as, and have basis in religious laws (10 Commandments) so I don't see your point.

Ever thought why the message to fear god is in the Bible? What's the best way to get people to follow something? To control them? Fear is the tool of the controller, not the lover or the friend.

The angry, wrathful, jealous god, who holds grudges like a five year old kid was put into the Bible to make people afraid not to follow him. How can anyone worship through fear?

Sure, you may fear an unknown presence. But as a follower you may choose to look for Him, find Him and know Him. When you think you know God why fear then? - he ceases to become an "unknown presence". Love is far more appropriate than fear. And how can you truly love something that you fear (and there is a difference between respect and fear)?

The wrathful god of the Bible is a mean interpretation to force people into following a religion. He is a bully and a complete asshole. The True God is nothing like this crude representation. He doesn't want your fear. All He wants is your love.

Don't be fooled by religions that force you to follow through fear. They force you to worship God to protect yourself from Him. You don't protect yourself and hide away from love do you?


[Edited on 29-4-2004 by Leveller]

Leveller, maybe you should dive into the untranslated bible sentences sometime to see what it truly says.
The badly translated "fear" is another word then what you're making of it.
It has to do with respect and the "size" of God compared to us.
It does not mean in any way "be afraid".

Whenever an angel appears to humans in the bible, the angels first words are "have no fear".

The words "have no fear" are in the bible a total of 365 times.
A pretty strong statement, have no fear, not one day of the year.

I've dived into the Bible plenty.
Whatever the translation, the actions of the god in that book speak louder than words. Death, destruction, famine, floods, pestilence, disease - he brings it all upon those whom the authors say he doesn't like. It doesn't matter which word you use for fear - the god of the Bible creates fear by his very actions.
He afflicts one of his perfect subjects with disease just to try him. He tests somebody else by telling them to sacrifice their own son. He orders the destruction of whole cities and the murder of their inhabitants and rejoices in their deaths and rewards the Isrealites for this carnage. That's not a god. That's a meglomaniac creation of the Bible authors' pens.
The Jewish tribal god is unloving and uncaring unless you do exactly as he says according to the Bible. The god of the Bible doesn't want your love. He wants your obedience!!!

The true God is totally different. He is Love. And Love is kind and forgiving. It doesn't hold petty jealousies or yearn for acts of revenge.

The Bible was written to control people through a fear of a god. The Koran is exactly the same. Conform or you will be damned. God doesn't condemn his children as the writer of the Bible states - you have the choice to condemn yourself, but it's your choice. You can believe in a god who turns his back on you if you screw up, but I prefer to worship a god who will love me however badly I screw up, because he recognises that at least I try to do the right thing.

I totally do not agree.
You have probably been reading the book of Job, and some other Old Testament parts.
I don't think that after what Jesus did we can apply the Old Testament directly to our time and culture.
Jesus changed a lot, and that's why our sins no longer stand in the way to God like in old times.
Comparing christianity to the Islam is a joke, the differences are so obvious it's hard to believe the Islam is based on the old testament.
Ah well, I hope you take the time to read some new testament stuff as well. There is indeed a lot of stuff on war, punishment and Gods fury in the old testament, but if that's all you're reading then you're missing the point.

Please, don't insult my intelligence. I'm well versed on the New Testament and although you state that Christianity means that the god of the OT is irrelevant, you seem to forget that the tribal god of the OT is the very same one in the NT. The bugger is even linked by the OT prophesies.

I can completely understand how Islam, Judaism and Christianity are linked. There's a little thing called history that gives a guiding light. Islam is based on the story of Abraham and his son Ishmael whereas Judaism and Christianity veered off to the other son, Jacob. The religions are irreconceivably linked.

As for Christianity? Sure Jesus came along and turned Judaism upside down but he did this with the help of paganism. There is a way to look at all three of the big religions and that way uncovers the hand of man in thier creation - not the hand of God.

[Edited on 29-4-2004 by Leveller]

Learn how to read a post.
I did not say the God of the OT is irrelevant, I said we can no longer apply the OT directly to our time and culture without interpreting it in the light of what Jesus did for us.
Jesus using paganism?
I guess you should really do some more reading, your conclusions make no sense whatsoever.

The thing is, I've done plenty of reading. If you can't see the pagan origins of Christianity then maybe you need to research more. Osiris/Dionisys/Buddah/Mithras and loads of other god figures are all in there. Of course, the modern Church doesn't want to admit to it's origins and it's founder's (Constantine) influence, but the evidence is all there, plain to see.

As for your statement that the God of the OT is not irrelevant yet the OT is not pertinent to modern times - that's the age old Christian cop out. One second they're whining that the OT is The Book of God, the next they're distancing themselves and backpedalling like crazy.

If the OT is not relevant and it is the story of a god then how the hell is that god relevant? The NT is a direct descendant of the OT and as I stated before, the prophesies directly tie it in, the laws directly tie it in and Jesus the Jew directly ties it in. Distance yourself all you like but you are denying fact. Your claim is rather like stating that traffic laws were invented in the days when cars travelled at 10mph, yet now that vehicles travel at 100mph those laws aren't pertinent. Maybe some of the laws have been updated but the basis is still there - you are still expected to drve your car sensibly and the fundamentals haven't changed.

Your wrathful, angry, jealous god of the OT is the same one as the NT version, just as he is the god of the Muslims through interpretation of the OT.
Personally, I wouldn't worship an idol who forces me to follow him.

So you have two ways of looking at it:
Either the god of the NT is not the god of the OT, in which case Christianity has it's origins outside of the Jewish faith and Judaism was just used as a smokescreen whilst paganism was the main basis.
Or:
The god of the NT is the one in the OT. In which case, his personality as an asshole still applies.

One second they're whining that the OT is The Book of God, the next they're distancing themselves and backpedalling like crazy.

Do you really not understand anything I wrote, or don't you want to understand it?
The NT testament fullfills the prophecies written in the OT, making a lot of OT laws no longer apply.
The OT is besides a list of laws also a historical book that explains how several nations lived and how their interaction with God was.
Those nations lived in a time where the prophecies had not yet been fullfilled, and where all OT laws still applied.
Of course the OT is the book of God, and there's a lot of wisdom and lessons in it, but if you want to use the OT to trashtalk christianity, you'll have to come with something better.
You say you have read up on everything, but you still seem to think the NT is partly based on paganism.
That's a pretty ignorant thing to say, showing that you do not understand what happened when and what caused what.
Don't trashtalk something you don't know enough about, because this is not making any sense.