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On Superluminal Propulsion

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posted on Apr, 29 2009 @ 09:10 PM
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ircamera.as.arizona.edu

Okay, so I guess I am on a little ‘kick’ lately of creating explanatory threads. This is my attempt to educate the various members and viewers of all the aspects directly associated with Ufology(so everyone actually knows what they are talking about and to give Ufology a much more scientific legitimacy).Some topics so far that I have covered are Astronomy 101,On Parallel Universes,The Three Different Types of Greys,The Three Clinchers for Proof of Alien Life,and The Feasibility of Greys-you might want to check them out if you haven’t already. A notable absence is this ensuing thread about ways these creatures might travel here feasibly.

I am going to take the three most likely FTL (Faster Than Light) drive theories and break them down for understanding on a broad level of knowledge. It is likely if these creatures do exist that they use on of these advanced propulsion systems. It is obviously logical to assume that any advanced civilization that is capable of leaving their own star system would have a relatively rapid form of interstellar propulsion. It isn’t to practical to not have developed one and rely on any type of subluminal propulsion for distances of this vastness. Also it is likely that a civilization even just 200 years ahead of us would have likely developed this type of technology, which we(humans)are already trying to develop and think is highly likely.

The Kardashev scale is a method of measuring a civilization's level of technological advancement. The scale is only theoretical and in terms of an actual civilization highly speculative; however, it puts energy consumption of an entire civilization in a cosmic perspective. It was first proposed in 1964 by the Soviet Russian astronomer Nikolai Kardashev. The scale has three designated categories called Type I, II, and III. These are based on the amount of usable energy a civilization has at its disposal, and the degree of space colonization. In general terms, a Type I civilization has achieved mastery of the resources of its home planet, Type II of its solar system, and Type III of its galaxy.[1]
wikipedia.org

wikipedia.org
So we can see from the above graph that it is perfectly reasonable to assume that a civilization in the range of a BILLION years more advanced could develop this type of technology(and its energy requirements).
For a brief reference lets look at our closest star and assume these reported creatures come from there( they are believed to come from Zeta Reticuli,a much furtherstar system that is almost ten times as far).Proxima Centauri is the closest star to our own, and it is roughly 4 lightyears away(a lightyear is the time it takes light, the fastest known speed, to reach something).So lets hypothetically try to make the journey on a spacecraft that is capable of our own space shuttles speed. While the space shuttle can travel at an astounding 17,580 mph(in orbit) it would take 175,000 years(well beyond 1oo’s of life times and thus unfeasible) to reach Proxima Centauri!Take the fastest spacecraft e humans have ever made, the Voyager(which is actually faster than the “New Horizons” probe on average by 4 km/s due to gravity assist), which travels right now at around 34,000mph-it would still take nearly 75,000 years to get there!So you can quickly see the problems with our current top speed of spaceflight. Even at c (the speed of light) it would take a thousand years to reach a star that is 1000 lightyears away! So even if you have a craft capable of reaching 186,000miles per second,the speed of light, you will still really be restricted to stars under 10 lightyears away for exploration and in the vastness of space that is just unacceptable.Simply put, we or any other conceivable species isn’t going to wait that long to travel from point ‘A’ to ‘B’.Good for us we think there is a way around this. Here are the top three proposals on how to travel these great distances in a practical and feasible amount of time.

It was 30 years ago when Voyager 1 started on its mission. Not quite seeking out new life-forms and splitting infinitives, but there’s still time. Voyager’s speed is now roughly 34,000 mph or about 307 million miles per year—so great, even the Stig would be impressed.Voyager 1 and 2 were designed originally to fly past every planet in the solar system. Even after the program was scaled back, they only missed Pluto, still classed as a planet in the 1970s. In the 1990s, Voyager 1 zoomed past Pioneer 10, at the time the furthest man-made object. Today, Voyager 1 continues to collect data on a digital tape recorder which it transmits to Earth every six months.
atpm.com

Voyager Probe
wikipedia.org
Chapter Summary
1. Why is FTL So Hard?
2.”Warp Drive”
3.”Hyperdrive/Wormhole Tunneling”
4.”Quantum Jump Drive”
5. Conclusion on Feasibility
1. Why is FTL So Hard?
Faster than light travel is difficult for many reasons;One,tremendous and non-chemical energy sources are required(which we have not yet found to any usable extent).Two, Albert Einstein, in his theory of relativity stated that any mass accelerating past the speed of light(c) would require an infinite amount of energy, which is impossible in any feasible sense.Three,time dialation,it is proved that this causality effect does indeed exist, here is more information.If someone leaves at the speed of light from Earth to Proxima Centauri the trip would only be four years to the pilot of the craft while on Earth hundreds to thousands of years would have passed!Obviously that and the other problems are extreme and you can see why FTL travel is so difficult and we are not flying around in “Star Trek “type spaceships. It is not unlikely, however, that a race hundreds to thousands of years more advanced than we are would be able to achieve this type of travel. For more information I suggest this reading created by Dr.Michio Kaku on the five types of civilizations.

2. Warp Drive
Warp drive is popularly shown in the Star Trek series. This type of propulsion however is not sci-fi and is being seriously researched by many theoretical physicist,including ones at NASA’s Breakthrough Propulsion Labs.This type of drive while requiring a very large energy source is feasible according to our current understanding(limited) of physics and the Universe. The principle is simple; you contract space in front of the craft then expand it behind and thus you ride a ‘wave’ of space –time while not physically moving the craft itself and thus not violating relativity’s causality.The most important breakthrough that I know of in the warp drive field was made in the early nineties by Dr. Alcubierre,a theoretical physicist.The math is there, the mechanics is there, but the main thing needed; an understanding of how to build a engine capable of doing such a thing and how it would warp space-time is still far out of reach as is known today.

An FTL propulsion system - based on Alcubierre’s warp drive - that utilizes dark energy to propel a spacecraft faster than light has been proposed, and could revolutionize space travel according to an article on the website of Cosmos Magazine [4]. The concept is supported by the calculations of several physicists at Baylor University in Waco, Texas. Comparable to the warp drive concept of Star Trek, their theory states that a spacecraft could travel at warp velocity in a bubble of space-time, by manipulating dark energy — the mysterious invisible force allegedly responsible for the observed acceleration in the expansion of the universe. Essentially, the spacecraft would remain in the same place, while space-time ahead of the craft would shrink, expanding again behind it.
wikipedia.org

wikipedia.org


In 1996, NASA established the Breakthrough Propulsion Physics Program, which sponsored some speculative work on warp drives. This program was discontinued in 2002{curiously IMO).
While thought experiments on the wilder shores of theoretical physics continue to be formed, no scheme that may allow travel at warp velocity has yet been devised that has also been accepted by mainstream science. Some physicists have proposed a model of FTL travel, formulated in the context of Lorentzian manifolds, which are used in general relativity to construct space-time models. However, contrary to a common misconception, these models are in no sense solutions to the Einstein field equation, and they give no knowledge as to how a warp bubble might actually be established.


Continued.......




posted on Apr, 29 2009 @ 09:11 PM
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These models do however show that while it is indeed impossible to exceed the speed of light, in principle it might be possible to circumvent the problem by suitably "warping" spacetime itself. The most renowned theory, known as the Alcubierre drive, uses terminology in accord with Star Trek jargon: "warp factors" measure the warping of space-time, not the magnitude of actual velocity. In his book The Physics of Star Trek, Lawrence Krauss states that while it is possible to actually travel at a velocity greater than that of light via warp drive, huge amounts of negative energy are required to make it work. Gardiner developed a timetable for the development of the warp drive from analyses of history.[5] He concluded the realization of the warp drive might be achieved around the year 2180.
The following formula (Einstein field equation), based on general relativity, theoretically permits the travel of an object at a greater velocity than that of light, provided that space-time is curved.
Hypothetically, if space-time is warped properly, the velocity of the traveling object does not technically exceed the speed of light, even though they appear to be moving faster than light to observers in normal space-time.
In 2007, physicist Richard Obousy proposed that a warp drive could be created by directly manipulating the extra dimensions of string theory.[7] His idea suggests the expansion of space-time is a consequence of the vacuum ground-state of higher dimensional graviton fluctuations. The vacuum energy equations can be expressed as:
In this model, it is the radius of the extra dimensions that directly controls the expansion of space. Obousy suggests that it is superstrings that wrap around the extra dimensions and thusly keeping them compact, but that a sufficiently advanced civilization might influence a string and locally adjust the size of the extra dimension creating a controlled expansion and contraction of the space surrounding an interstellar craft. In July of 2008 it was reported that two Baylor University physicists have outlined how a faster-than-light engine could be created by manipulating the 11th dimension, a special theoretical construct of m-theory.

wikpedia.org

The Alcubierre metric, also known as the Alcubierre drive or Warp Drive, is a speculative mathematical model of a spacetime exhibiting features reminiscent of the fictional "warp drive" from Star Trek, which can travel "Faster-than-light" (although not in a local sense - see below).
In 1994, the Mexican physicist Miguel Alcubierre proposed a method of stretching space in a wave which would in theory cause the fabric of space ahead of a spacecraft to contract and the space behind it to expand.[1] The ship would ride this wave inside a region known as a warp bubble of flat space. Since the ship is not moving within this bubble, but carried along as the region itself moves, conventional relativistic effects such as time dilation do not apply in the way they would in the case of a ship moving at high velocity through flat spacetime. Also, this method of travel does not actually involve moving faster than light in a local sense, since a light beam within the bubble would still always move faster than the ship; it is only "faster than light" in the sense that, thanks to the contraction of the space in front of it, the ship could reach its destination faster than a light beam restricted to travelling outside the warp bubble. Thus, the Alcubierre drive does not contradict the conventional claim that relativity forbids a slower-than-light object to accelerate to faster-than-light speeds. However, there are no known methods to create such a warp bubble in a region that does not already contain one, or to leave the bubble once inside it, so the Alcubierre drive remains a theoretical concept at this time.


The Alcubierre warp field
wikipedia.org
There are many equations on this theory,but for interest of a general audience and space I will not post them here.
3.”Hyperdrive/Wormhole Tunneling”
“Hyperdrive” or more precisely “wormhole tunneling” is a very common form of travel in the sci-fi Universe. Hyperdrive is the slang term for either an extremely fast form of propulsion or a form of propulsion that allows a craft to enter a “sub or hyperspatial” realm. As is common real science has taken these terms from sci-fi for the real thing that is being researched. The principle behind a hyperdrive(this word is also much shorter than ‘wormhole tunneler’,lol) is that you can bend and curve space-time, since space-time itself is curved and mallable.The principle uses the postulation that two conjoined throats of black holes with a one way matter stream can be used to travel possibly infinite distance in a matter of minutes or seconds. In this way you are temporarily leaving our ‘real space’ and entering a ‘corridor’ in-between our space-time, commonly referred to as “subspace,hyperspace”,or a newer,more original term being used by the physics community;”space-time foam.”You can look at it like this:Instead of the shortest distance between point A and B being a straight line it is actually the conjoining of the two points by bending the space between them.This too will take an even more massive amount of energy than the warp drive but could result in much faster travel times. The technology required to even achieve this or what is even conceivable(engine and mechanics wise) is extreme at the least to comprehend, and at current is far off and needs major breakthroughs in physics(more so than the warp drive).The only schematic that has received any attention is a very, very massive star size device that still isn’t possible in the conceivable future unless there is a breakthrough. Some main theories are as follows:

Can we ever achieve speed faster than light? Yes, say contemporary physicists disagreeing with Einstein’s theory of relativity. Advanced alien civilizations are tunneling through with speed much faster than light all the time. The problem is skeptics question such happenings with old non-contemporary Physics.
In recent years, some physicists have conducted experiments in which faster-than-light (FTL) speeds were measured. On the other hand, Einstein's theory of special relativity gives light speed as the absolute speed limit for matter and information.
The Berkeley group gives a general overview of their research at physics.berkley.edu .
In one of the experiments, where a single photon tunneled through a barrier and its tunneling speed (not a signal speed!) was 1.7 times light speed, is described in Steinberg, A.M., Kwiat, P.G. & R.Y. Chiao 1993: "Measurement of the Single-Photon Tunneling Time" in Physical Review Letter 71, S. 708—711.
Scientists in recent days are finding that exceeding speed of light through wave propagation in a tunneling experiment is nothing new. The scientific think tanks are now confident that advanced alien civilizations are constantly speeding through the wormhole tunnels with speeds exceeding 100 times that of light.
That is how the intergalactic travel across 100 light years can take place in less than a day and may be in a few hours. Of course the wormholes themselves bend time and space. The tunnel speed of 100 times faster than light is fast speed when you consider that time and space is attached to each other as evident in our physical universe. But that speed is easy to achieve once you can detach time from space and learn to speed in space slightly above the speed of light. Fast forwarding detached time spatial creates the final magic – it provides the ultimate speed multiplier and one achieve the speed faster that 100 times that of light.
There is another trick to the whole thing. Extraterrestrial aliens of advanced order can utilize the wave propagation for linear transportation of an entity from the physical universe or the parallel universe through the wormhole. The biggest challenge for them is not the speed but keeping track of space and time spatial characteristics.

indiadaily.com




It was Austrian Ludwig Flamm who had realised that Schwarzschild's solution (called the Schwarzschild Metric) to Einstein's equations actually describes a wormhole connecting two regions of flat space-time; two universes, or two parts of the same universe. Lorentzian wormholes are essentially short cuts through space and time but they instantaneously close unless some form of negative energy can hold them open. It is possible to produce small amounts of negative energy in the laboratory by a principle known as the Casimir [12] effect. However this energy would not be enough to keep open a wormhole.
krioma.net
Continued.......


[edit on 4/29/2009 by jkrog08]



posted on Apr, 29 2009 @ 09:11 PM
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neswcientist.com
So we can see that obviously progress IS being made.I should also note that the Alcubierre Metric theory also could include this type of “wormhole” or “hyperdrive” travel.It is currently unknown how to produce an artificial but stable wormhole(or subspace corridor),but progress is being made in significant steps.
4.Quantum Jump Drive
While this drive might seem the ‘furthest out there’ oddly enough it is the only one out of the three that one, we have observed the principle behind it in nature, and two, we are able to observe and replicate the principles in small scale environments and thus this is the one we are ‘closest’ to achieving in many opinions(mine included).The principle behind this is anchored in quantum mechanics and quantum theory, specifically the principle of quantum entanglement and the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle.Lets take a look at these key definitions.Quantum entanglement-The phenomena observed on the quantum level where particles appear to interact instantaneously over any distance, which violates Einstein’s causality of the limit of c.This principle is directly linked to the following quantum observation.

Quantum entanglement is a possible property of a quantum mechanical state of a system of two or more objects in which the quantum states of the constituting objects are linked together so that one object can no longer be adequately described without full mention of its counterpart — even though the individual objects may be spatially separated.
wikipedia.orgThe Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle-The Copenhagen Experiment is the driving force behind Dr.Heisenbergs observation that you can never determine both the location and momentum of a particle because not only does the act of observing it(or any particle) affect one of those measurements but even stranger the particles somehow ‘know’ when you are measuring another one and thus are affected therefore affecting the measurements.

In quantum physics, the Heisenberg uncertainty principle states that certain physical quantities, like position and momentum, cannot both have precise values at the same time. The narrower the probability distribution for one, the wider it is for the other.
wikipedia.org The only thing we can do is use odds to ‘guess’ the best possible location of a particle, this is known as the probability distribution but we are not going to get into that here. The previous quantum observations among others have been the leading reason why the Theory of Relativity and Quantum Theory are complete opposites and not unified(which is the ultimate goal for many physicist right now) or apparently compatible. A couple theoretical means of utilizing these principles of the quantum world are either to somehow change a craft and occupants into a quantum state and then simply ‘jump’ to any location in space-time it chooses.. Another way would be to figure out how these particle communicate instantaneously,utilize it, and ‘jump’ to the location of another particle anywhere. There are some other theories that could make either of those plausible but they get complicated and would make this thread terribly long and boring to most(yes even members of ATS likely).Here is a possible phenomena to achieve this drive:

The answer appears to be that these properties have their origin as the fluctuations of the quantum vacuum.
The properties of the Universe come from `nothing', where nothing is the quantum vacuum, which is a very different kind of nothing. If we examine a piece of `empty' space we see it is not truly empty, it is filled with spacetime, for example. Spacetime has curvature and structure, and obeys the laws of quantum physics. Thus, it is filled with potential particles, pairs of virtual matter and anti-matter units, and potential properties at the quantum level.
zebu.uoregon.edu
It will obviously take major breakthroughs in the understanding of quantum mechanics and the unity of quantum theory with relativity at the least. Also it will take a giant ‘quantum’leap(forgive the pun, I couldn’t resist,lol) in computers and navigation(for obvious navigational reasons involved with teleportation over thousands of lightyears of open space-time. This easily is the quickest form of space travel conceivable and is possible especially if civilizations visiting us are many millennia more advanced than us. Quantum mechanics is the future and at the least will truly open up a greater world in the future to come.
This from NASA….

ABSTRACT:
This report summarizes the accomplishments during a three year research project to investigate the use of surfaces, particularly in microelectromechanical systems (MEMS), to exploit quantum vacuum forces. During this project, we developed AFM instrumentation to repeatably measure Casimir forces in the nanoNewton range at 10-6 torr, designed an experiment to measure attractive and repulsive quantum vacuum forces, developed a QED based theory of Casimir forces that includes non-ideal material properties for rectangular cavities and for multilayer slabs, developed theoretical models for a variety of microdevices utilizing vacuum forces, applied vacuum physics to a gedanken spacecraft, and investigated a new material with a negative index of refraction.

SUBJECT TERMS:
Interstellar travel; Spacecraft propulsion; Physics; Gravitation; Antigravity

gltrs.grc.nasa.gov
5.Conclusion On Feasibility
Is any of this possible?Absolutely it is, it will just take more years of built upon knowledge for our own species to achieve it(if we haven’t already, but that’s another story!).We have only been in the “Space Age” for around 50 years, it could take as little as another decade or as much as many centuries to finally make the nessicary breakthroughs for this type of advanced propulsion and exploration. Evolution as a way of not letting a species make to large of ‘jumps’ before they as a whole are ‘mentally’ ready. Who knows though,tomorrow NASA may announce they have created an FTL capable craft! Now since there is a strong likelihood that any alien species visiting another planet will likely be at least 500 years more advanced than us it is also logical to assume that given that kind of head start in evolution(like a home planet a billion years older than Earth) ‘they’ would defiantly have the FTL technology required for interstellar flight. We believe it is possible but we just don’t yet have the skills and knowledge ourselves to build such a machine.

nasa.gov

Now as you might have already thought while reading through this thread, “How can some of these ideas only allow travel through space and not through time?”, so in essence it would seem that at least for the wormhole (hyperdrive) drive that there would be no way to only travel through space and no way to know what time you would end up in right? Well like I said we also need to advance significantly in computers and navigation. As far as the time travel aspect it is actually unlikely but possible, it depends (as far as we know) on what shape and type of wormhole is created.It gets pretty complicated and involves complex math, geometry,and physics but it has been thought about. So finally I want to say that in my opinion it is ignorant and naive to assume that Ets couldn’t ‘get here’ because the vast distances in space. We(a young species) already have ideas on how to do it and most mainstream physicist think it is possible someday.So isn’t it likely a billion year older civilization would have long ago achieved this? At the very least it is not ruled out and is a logical and reasonable explanation for ‘how they get here’. Also keep in mind that science fiction usually becomes reality someday. I personally wouldn’t be surprised if we achieve this capability as a species within 40 years, if we haven’t already. So to all those skeptical of this point of Ufology,the means of travel between star systems, I hope I have rested that case for you all. Thanks everyone and I hope you both enjoyed and learned from this thread.
Here is a youtube video about FTL transit….


Sources
nasa.gov
atpm.com
hypertextbook.com
independent.co.uk
answers.yahoo.com
krioma.net
grc.nasa.gov
zebu.uoregon.edu
gltrs.grc.nasa.gov
youtube.com



posted on Apr, 29 2009 @ 09:21 PM
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Very very nice thread! i dislike people like you,keeping me up all night with your well put together threads and ideas
Still have to read indepth but i've always thought quantum entanglement was a sure fire way to travel such vast distances.S&F

[edit on 29-4-2009 by Solomons]



posted on Apr, 29 2009 @ 09:24 PM
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Thanks,it took some time to put together,but will be well worth it for other members who don't know any of this information to learn it.As far as keeping you up,well it will be worth it,you'll be smarter!lol



posted on Apr, 30 2009 @ 03:46 AM
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reply to post by jkrog08
 

This is an excellent job you've done, marshalling what are probably the most promising lines of inquiry for achieving FTL travel according to current knowledge. In particular, I admire the selectivity with which you've avoided the pseudoscience and wild speculation this subject is normally so full of.

All the same, you go too far when you say


Is any of this possible? Absolutely it is...

Oh no. Not absolutely. All the theoretical contrivances you've described above may be wrong; we won't know if even the supporting hypotheses are admissible until others have checked the originators' mathematics and verified the conceptual implications. Only when that's done will we be in a position to try and falsify these ideas experimentally. So far, in each of the cases you describe above, we haven't even got to Step One. Presently - and I am as sorry to write this as I'm sure you are to read it - the door to the stars remains as firmly closed to us as ever.

Still, we can both take comfort in that


We have only been in the “Space Age” for around 50 years...

...and have achieved great things already, in our primitive way. Doubtless we shall surpass these nursery achievements many times in the future and - who knows - perhaps one day we will pry open that door I spoke of.

There are, however, other reasons beyond the apparent impossibility of FTL travel for believing that aliens are not visiting Earth. The simplest of these is that the universe is just too big for it to be probable. Currently, we have excellent estimates for the number of stars in the Galaxy and the average distances between them (which is especially great on this thinly populated, outlying arm of it). We have believable estimates, too, for the number of civilizations in the Galaxy. When you crunch the numbers, the average distance between these intelligent civilizations comes to about 200LY. To put it another way, every intelligent civilization is at the centre of an otherwise unpopulated sphere of radius 200 light-years.

Still, you wouldn't even know for sure that 200LY radius was empty until you'd searched all of it. How many stars would you have to search? Many more than you can see in the sky on a clear night. Taking the local stellar density as 0.04, that gives us a total of 32,000 stars - most of which probably have planets - among which to search, only to draw a disheartening blank.

So you can see why, with the best will in the world, interstellar travel between civilizations must be rare to nonexistent.

It gets worse when you factor in time. Don't forget these civilizations must be contemporary with one another. On Earth, according to this source, the average duration of a mammalian species is a million years* - an eyeblink in the history of the Galaxy. As a rule of thumb, the more complex the organism, the shorter-lived the species. So two civilizations 200LY apart have also got to arise at roughly similar times - and time, like space, is very, very big. In all that space and all that time, the prospect of two nearby civilizations evolving contemporaneously is dauntingly slim.

You speak of billion-year-old civilizations, assuming a pace of scientific advance comparable with what currently prevails on Earth. This is an unfeasibly optimistic vision. It is unlikely - no, on second thoughts, make that impossible - that an extraterrestrial biote with metabolic rates close enough to the human to allow it to interact directly with us could survive and thrive for a billion years. Ordinary Darwinian evolution (which never stops, no matter how intelligent and advanced a species may be) precludes it, for one thing. Perhaps a succession of species, each evolving from its predecessor, could pursue a line of scientific and technological development over a thousand millennia without failing, but you have to admit this is - from what we know of the behaviour of intelligent animals - unlikely to say the least. And then again, just think how many catastrophes a civilization would have to avoid in order to last longer (350 million years longer!) than multicellular life on Earth has managed so far.

People can't conceptualize quantities like 'million' or 'billion' directly, the way we can conceptualize numbers to the first two or three orders of magnitude. Few of us can truly grasp just how big time and space are. The interstellar empires and confederations so adored by us space-opera buffs can never exist in reality.

But what, you might argue, if Earth is very, very special? What if there's something about this planet, or its principal inhabitants, that makes us especially worth visiting? Well, there could be. But one of the things we know about spacetime is that it is symmetrical. In other words, you can stand anywhere in the cosmos, bend your gaze in any direction you like, and on an interstellar or intergalactic scale you'll see pretty much the same scene. The same scattering of matter and energy, the same planets, stars, quasars, galaxies and GRBs. That suggests that there are plenty of other 'Earths', populated by creatures very much like us. No comfort there for those hoping to find a friend among the fusion fires and dust-clouds.


Evolution as a way of not letting a species make to large of ‘jumps’ before they as a whole are ‘mentally’ ready.

Are you a religious person, then? Because evolution is not teleological. It has no purpose. It is just a law of nature, much like gravity; it exists because it exists, not because it has some kind of job to do.

I repeat myself when I say I think your work on this thread is excellent and fully deserving of the stars and flag I've awarded it. However, I disagree with your conclusions, for what I am sure you will agree are meaningful reasons. I would add that in the end I greatly hope you are right, and that I am wrong.

 
*Though less advanced organisms (such as molluscs) do, I admit, tend to last longer.



posted on Apr, 30 2009 @ 10:16 AM
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Thanks and I appreciate your input.What you say could be true,although I believe it is a pessimistic approach with many assumptions(which I am guilty of as well) on science and understanding of reality that you,me,or anyone simply does not have.I tend to take the stance that the galaxy(and Universe) is full of intelligent life much closer to each other than 200ly's.

Also when assuming that these creatures would be susceptible to the same natural disasters and evolutionary laws we are you must stop and think that any advanced civilization would likely be able to control their environment thus stopping natural disasters.Also Darwin was alive and using knowledge from a long time ago when he made his observations.Really not much work as been done in the field since and like other things it has corrections to be made to the theory.I think we can not say the end result of an advanced species evolution.Also we have to remember that any advanced species would have genetic manipulation capabilities far ahead of ours.

To conclude,can I say for sure any of this is true?No,not yet.But are people skeptical of ets visiting Earth not in the same boat?It seems like the more and more evidence mounts towards et's existence the different excuses skeptics come up with.First it was simply "they dont exist",then it was "only microbes exist,no intelligent life",now it is"even if they do exist they cant get here and other natural laws prevent them from doing so."Again,I appreciate your response and am more than willing to speak with you about this,but really not on here as I don't want to go to far off topic as this thread is about FTL travel.



posted on Apr, 30 2009 @ 05:21 PM
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Really?I thought more people would be interested in this topic!

Oh well,it is here for all who wish to see it(maybe the geeky ones like me!lol)



posted on Apr, 30 2009 @ 09:47 PM
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reply to post by jkrog08
 


I think it's an amazing set of posts, I think a lot of people are in the same boat I am and don't even know where to begin replying


It's a lot of information to digest.



posted on Apr, 30 2009 @ 09:56 PM
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Ha,well thanks for replying,for a minute I thought no one cared,but I didn't realize you may be right!Well I just hope everyone learns something and likes it,I did put some work into it.So do you have any thoughts on anything here>



posted on Apr, 30 2009 @ 11:13 PM
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A very interesting and well put together thread!
I too think that there is much we will learn as time progresses and wouldn't rule out any of the possibilities that you have outlined here.

If there is a randomness to planets having the ability to develop and sustain intelligent life to the point at which extra solar system travel is possible, I don't think we should hamstring ourselves, either, by prematurely ruling out the possibility of nearby intelligent life or the possibility that our future generations might visit them one day.



posted on Apr, 30 2009 @ 11:19 PM
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Reply to Elfie:

Thanks for your input friend!I anticipated this thread to get much more attention(it is progressing slowly,lol).Maybe I should have simplified it a little more!So do you have any thoughts on this?Me personally,I think we have had this technology since the 60's.due to ETs,but thats another thread(lol,one I already made last summer!)



posted on Apr, 30 2009 @ 11:25 PM
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Top of the line IMO!



The images that you added to the information really "took me there"

It isn't one easy pass through, it takes alot of contemplation, but an endeavor worth the time.

I love this stuff!




posted on Apr, 30 2009 @ 11:30 PM
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Thanx!


I am glad you found it good.I think it is important for all who not only believe in UFOs but live to understand these upcoming concepts.They have implications for us all,and at the very least,like you said,"it takes us there".

I liked the flashing Swartzchild Radius(wormhole with a 'football' shaped thing in the middle).it added some flare,lol.



posted on Apr, 30 2009 @ 11:30 PM
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reply to post by jkrog08
 

Man, your thread has nineteen flags!

People are reading and appreciating it, don't you worry.



posted on Apr, 30 2009 @ 11:32 PM
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Ha,(sorry my "reply to" thing isn't working so my post reply to the very last person,lol)I am glad some members are taking a look at it.



posted on May, 1 2009 @ 12:13 AM
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Originally posted by jkrog08
I liked the flashing Swartzchild Radius(wormhole with a 'football' shaped thing in the middle).it added some flare,lol.


Yeah, I took some time and meditated on that for a few.

I imagined the vortex's with opposite spin and the center point /nuclear fusion and potential for movement within that structure, or maybe the collapse and stretching of such. Hard to describe, but a great visual!

I will leave the technical speak to those of you versed in it, seems some things there needs to be a common language for but is still in the early stages of naming.



posted on May, 1 2009 @ 12:18 AM
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Well even current physics cant adequately describe what happens in a blackhole,let alone a wormhole!My suggestion is that you visualize it in your mind.Your brain can perceive things on a subconscious level that it cant on a conscious.Also remember that at this point in physics nuclear fusion does not exist,neither do the laws of physics...but however you wish to think of it is what matters.



posted on May, 1 2009 @ 12:30 AM
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Originally posted by jkrog08
Well even current physics cant adequately describe what happens in a blackhole,let alone a wormhole!My suggestion is that you visualize it in your mind.Your brain can perceive things on a subconscious level that it cant on a conscious.Also remember that at this point in physics nuclear fusion does not exist,neither do the laws of physics...but however you wish to think of it is what matters.



*added the bold*

I suppose I like the word Superluminal better~~~



posted on May, 1 2009 @ 12:34 AM
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LOL,really I didn't mean to add the bold.But yea I guess "superluminal" is cool,but a lot of people don't know what that means!All it is is like "Supersonic".....Most people use FTL(Faster Than Light)






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