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Obama unequivocal: 'I believe that waterboarding was torture'

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posted on May, 3 2009 @ 08:44 PM
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Originally posted by WTFover
reply to post by evil incarnate
 


First of all, you brought up the idea we were safe during the Clinton era.

"The 1993 World Trade Center bombing occurred on February 26, 1993, when a car bomb was detonated below the North Tower of the World Trade Center in New York City."
en.wikipedia.org...

This was one month into Clinton's Presidency. Why do you believe we were not attacked for the next 8 years 7 months?


LOL, it must be because we were running around kidnapping and torturing people right? That is the only logical conclusion. The only way to keep America from getting attacked is to torture people constantly right? That makes sense. Sorry I did not get it before.




posted on May, 3 2009 @ 09:04 PM
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reply to post by evil incarnate
 


If you read all of my posts on this thread, you will not find where I have advocated the use of torture. That is your word. I do, however, believe in the effectiveness of enhanced interrogation techniques (if we must use labels). There is a difference. Even the Obama quote, in the OP, acknowledges not everyone agrees that water boarding is "torture".



posted on May, 3 2009 @ 09:11 PM
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Originally posted by WTFover
reply to post by evil incarnate
 


If you read all of my posts on this thread, you will not find where I have advocated the use of torture. That is your word. I do, however, believe in the effectiveness of enhanced interrogation techniques (if we must use labels). There is a difference. Even the Obama quote, in the OP, acknowledges not everyone agrees that water boarding is "torture".


Unfortunately, the United States of America has already condemned water boarding as torture. We signed the Geneva convention and we run around proclaiming how much better we are than these hairless monkeys.

Please explain to me what happened between today and when we condemned Japanese soldiers to die for the exact same thing because it was torture.



posted on May, 3 2009 @ 10:18 PM
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Originally posted by WTFover

Originally posted by HunkaHunka

Thank God Obama has brought America to the place where we have turned the corner back towards our values.

God Bless the USA, where we do NOT place American Lives higher than Human Rights!!!




Huh?

Have you heard Obama has not ended the Iraq war, as he promised you?



I don't recall him promising to end the Iraq war. I DO remember him promising to bring home our troops in a responsible way. It appears to be that is the process.

I'm quite happy with the way this is progressing.




He has not closed Gitmo, as he promised you?



Gitmo was there long before Bush came into office, and I expect it to be there long after. The difference? Torture.

That has ended. And I am happy about that!




He decided the military tribunals for enemy combatants, as set up by the Bush administration, were not such a bad idea after all and is reinstituting them?



I NEVER had an issue with this. I had an issue with torture. That was my only problem with Gitmo.

Why do you assume I think otherwise?





Where is this magical "corner" you speak of?



OMG... the magic corner is he doesn't act like a buffoon hell bent on ticking everyone off no matter what.

I sat and watched the interview with Robert Gates today on GPS, and it was amazing to hear people actually talking intelligently about our policies.

Believe me buddy, we have turned a HUGE corner.

I mean look at how the Republican Party is fractured currently... only 21% of Americans identify themselves as such... the Party is reaching out to Gays and starting to support gay marriage!

I used to be a republican until they were overrun by fairy tale believing pious pariahs.

Obama's election has forced the Republican Party into self examination. Something which would never have happened if it were not for the election of Barack Obama.




You should wake up to the fact that Obama's campaign rhetoric was just that. You will never see anyone prosecuted for the interrogation techniques used againt the terrorists.


Uhmmm... he never promised to prosecute people... I mean.. I'd love to see it, but why are you attributing promises to him that he never made? Muddying the waters?




Secondly, since when are American lives any less important than any one elses? Americans are not entitled to human rights?


I never said that... I Said that the safety of Americans is not greater than Human rights. For example, if the only way you can save American Lives is through Human Rights violations, then let the Americans die, so that the American ideal can survive. And if it can't survive... then well it's dead already.



posted on May, 3 2009 @ 10:38 PM
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Originally posted by HunkaHunka

Originally posted by WTFover

Originally posted by HunkaHunka


For example, if the only way you can save American Lives is through Human Rights violations, then let the Americans die, so that the American ideal can survive. And if it can't survive... then well it's dead already.




I believe "letting" Americans die is violating their "human rights".

How can the "American ideal" survive, without Americans?

Edit: Damn I thought I had this quote thing figured out.


[edit on 3-5-2009 by WTFover]

[edit on 3-5-2009 by WTFover]



posted on May, 3 2009 @ 10:46 PM
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reply to post by WTFover
 


There is no such thing as a Passive Human rights violations.

Now you might find people "turning a blind eye" to Humans rights violations, but it's an active thing.

For example, waterboarding someone... human rights violation. Raping a woman... human rights violations....

NOT Torturing someone who knows about a bomb about to go off...

Not a human rights violation.



posted on May, 3 2009 @ 11:02 PM
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reply to post by HunkaHunka
 


Life is the most important human right. Soldiers kill to protect lives. Police Officers, sometimes, kill to protect lives. I pray they are able to so intervene, when one of mine is endangered. As I do for yours. Pouring some water on a guy is not torture, and if done to protect lives, is not a human rights violation.



posted on May, 4 2009 @ 04:19 PM
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reply to post by WTFover
 


I just wanted to compliment you on completely dodging my statement about water boarding being considered torture after WWII.

Please explain to me we convicted and executed Japanese soldiers for waterboarding our men because we considered it torture but now it is not torture? What law or bill or anything was done to change that? Can you please cite anything?

While you are looking into things you cannot answer, riddle me this.

7 years and how many of the gitmo detainees have been found guilty of a crime? How many of them can we assume were innocent since after 7 years of torture they are still not convicted of any crimes. Can you explain that to me?

Please cite the people who were being tortured all throughout Clinton's presidency to keep us safe. You did say that was what was going on didn't you?

How about you also explain to me what helpful info was gleaned from waterboarding.

I have a feeling you are going to just insult me and put me on ignore or just pretend you never read this just like the last one but I think these are quite valid questions and I think you are arguing without any real knowledge of the facts at hand. You just like the idea that every brown person in the middle east should be tortured because of 9/11.

While you are ignoring these questions you cannot answer and pretending I gave you a reason to put me on ignore, can you please explain to me how rounding up anyone and everyone they could in Iraq helped to keep us safe after 9/11. You do know that the supposed terrorists did not come from Iraq right?

Have fun.


P.S. if you do find the fortitude to try and actually respond, please format your response correctly so I do not have to sift through all the quoted material to find which part is yours. If you need any help with that, let me know. I would be glad to explain how to format a response so that your response is not included in the quoted part.

[edit on 4-5-2009 by evil incarnate]



posted on May, 4 2009 @ 04:23 PM
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reply to post by evil incarnate
 


You honestly think that those Japanese you keep referring to was executed only because of water boarding?

Water boarding was the appetizer to what layed in store for those who were tortured by the Japanese. It is very unlikely that water boarding was the only thing they were charged with.



posted on May, 4 2009 @ 07:30 PM
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Originally posted by jd140
reply to post by evil incarnate
 


You honestly think that those Japanese you keep referring to was executed only because of water boarding?

Water boarding was the appetizer to what layed in store for those who were tortured by the Japanese. It is very unlikely that water boarding was the only thing they were charged with.



Care to cite that?

I can cite mine



posted on May, 4 2009 @ 09:16 PM
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reply to post by evil incarnate
 


First, I think you are as adept at dodging questions, as you accused me of being.

Secondly, if you feel I have been insullting to you, in any way, I apologize. I am not aware of having done so. However, I consider your last post very insulting, on many levels. I would be glad to continue this discussion, after you have decided to do so civilly. However, I doubt that is possible. No, I have not set you to ignore.

P.S. I would have greatly appreciated assistance with the quote function, which has been driving me nuts. However, I will politely decline your offer and seek assistance elsewhere, as I don't care to be berated over learning.



posted on May, 4 2009 @ 10:22 PM
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reply to post by WTFover
 


I would have actually been glad to help and put all arguments and berating aside. I never put anyone on ignore, and I would like your posts to be clear as to what it is you are trying to say. I did not come here just to read my own writing. I came here to hear from others and that includes you. I know how to put one thing aside for another. I do not hate people from here or even carry a grudge from one thread to the next. There are people I do not agree with quite vehemently on some threads and then I find myself starring them on others. If you really think that I am being insulting then hey, I do not know what to tell you. All I do is give back what I get.



posted on May, 4 2009 @ 10:23 PM
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Originally posted by evil incarnate

Originally posted by jd140
reply to post by evil incarnate
 


You honestly think that those Japanese you keep referring to was executed only because of water boarding?

Water boarding was the appetizer to what layed in store for those who were tortured by the Japanese. It is very unlikely that water boarding was the only thing they were charged with.



Care to cite that?

I can cite mine


No need to cite anything. You did it for me. Here is a quote from your source.

“Following World War II war crime trials were convened. The Japanese were tried and convicted and hung for war crimes committed against American POWs. Among those charges for which they were convicted was waterboarding.”

Like I said. Waterboarding was one of several charges of crimes against humanity they were being charged with.

Thanks for helping me prove my point.



posted on May, 4 2009 @ 10:36 PM
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reply to post by jd140
 




I guess you do not care much for research. If you follow me, class, I will walk very slowly through this for you. Some were convicted of comitting different tortures. Among them, men were executed for being convicted of torture because they waterboarder our men. Some did other things. There were all kinds of torture charges but apparently reading, research, history are all pointless to you. Go back and look into it. You are completely missing the point of that sentence but then you would have to have a context for it and apparently you do not. I do. Some Japanese soldiers were executed for waterboarding our men. Other Japanese soldiers were executed because of other things. I am starting to think you are just playing dumb to have some fun.



posted on May, 4 2009 @ 11:19 PM
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reply to post by evil incarnate
 


Show me.

Show me that one person of Japanese decent was executed solely for waterboarding someone.

The wording says among the charges they include. Charges as in more then one.

But you take it how you want to. I want to see evidence.

That is a very specific request. Post it and then you can walk me through it smart guy.



posted on May, 4 2009 @ 11:40 PM
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I wonder why TPTB picked a really dumb way to torture unless they wanted people to be talking about it while they did other forms of torture. Come on people think about it. Just look in history. The inquistion time period, sheesh talk about hundreds of ways to torture someone into talking and many were extremely violent. The rack, the Iron maiden, burnings, peeling the art of skinning someone alive. The list goes on and on. Then we have the 1000 ways to torture writen during the Turkish empire. Then to modern times with the advent of electricity. All manners of hypno-drugs. Then we have the evil dentist. Straping you down and drilling out a tooth so the nerves hit the air and you scream. All these ways and so many more, but they come up with water boarding.

talk about lame. Or are TPTB geting us ready for some other kind of programing?

just my 2 cents worth




posted on May, 5 2009 @ 12:23 AM
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Originally posted by jd140
reply to post by evil incarnate
 


Show me.

Show me that one person of Japanese decent was executed solely for waterboarding someone.

The wording says among the charges they include. Charges as in more then one.

But you take it how you want to. I want to see evidence.

That is a very specific request. Post it and then you can walk me through it smart guy.


Sigh. You really are tiresome. Please read


In this country, Major Edwin Glenn was court-martialed and sentenced to ten years hard labor in 1901 for water boarding a prisoner in the Philippines during the Spanish-American War. The US officially outlawed the practice after World War II, because it had been used against Allied troops by the Gestapo and the Japanese Kempeitai. Indeed, eight Kempeitai officers were executed for water boarding British prisoners, and Japanese officer Yukio Asano was convicted by an Allied court of war crimes in 1947 for, among other things, water boarding John Henry Burton, a US civilian.


The rest of the story is here.

As you can see, not only were Japanese soldiers executed for it, there was a court martial befor that as well as the fact that the United States officially outlawed it as torture. Read up and get back to me, smart guy.



posted on May, 5 2009 @ 12:24 AM
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Originally posted by jd140
reply to post by evil incarnate
 


Show me.

Show me that one person of Japanese decent was executed solely for waterboarding someone.

The wording says among the charges they include. Charges as in more then one.

But you take it how you want to. I want to see evidence.

That is a very specific request. Post it and then you can walk me through it smart guy.


Sigh. You really are tiresome. Please read


In this country, Major Edwin Glenn was court-martialed and sentenced to ten years hard labor in 1901 for water boarding a prisoner in the Philippines during the Spanish-American War. The US officially outlawed the practice after World War II, because it had been used against Allied troops by the Gestapo and the Japanese Kempeitai. Indeed, eight Kempeitai officers were executed for water boarding British prisoners, and Japanese officer Yukio Asano was convicted by an Allied court of war crimes in 1947 for, among other things, water boarding John Henry Burton, a US civilian.


The rest of the story is here.

As you can see, not only were Japanese soldiers executed for it, there was a court martial befor that as well as the fact that the United States officially outlawed it as torture. Read up and get back to me, smart guy.

[edit on 5-5-2009 by evil incarnate]



posted on May, 5 2009 @ 12:32 AM
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Thanks for the site.

You are right and wrong in your statement that we executed Japanese soldiers for waterboarding.

While 8 Japanese soldiers were executed for waterboarding.

It was not the US, as you stated earlier, that tried and executed them.

It was an Allied court of war crimes.


I'm sure you will state that we sat on the court and blah blah blah. It still only makes you half right.



posted on May, 5 2009 @ 12:49 AM
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reply to post by jd140
 


Did you completely miss this sentence?


The US officially outlawed the practice after World War II, because it had been used against Allied troops by the Gestapo and the Japanese Kempeitai.


What is your defense against this. No matter what I was right or wrong about in the details, the United States of America did outlaw it because it was torture correct?



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