Obama unequivocal: 'I believe that waterboarding was torture'

Originally posted by PammyK
The Senior enlisted Sailors I talk to say it isn't torture because they go through the same thing while training. The films I see about it make me sick! I think we are smarter than that.

Thats BS. I was an enlisted sailor and never went through that training.


Now there is a training school whereby they teach you how to survive being captured by a primitive culture and tortured.... heh... still, THEY KNOW THEY ARE BEING TRAINED.

What they fail to tell you is that they call a TRAINING TIME OUT whenever they feel it's too much. Which they are want to do for fear of being called a Wussie...

There's a HUGE difference between signing up for a school and being captured as a prisoner.

[edit on 30-4-2009 by HunkaHunka]

Originally posted by Styki
These people will cut your head off drag your body through the streets and then booby trap it to kill your friends too. We put cloth over their head and dump water on it. You choose.

I choose American Values, and maintaining our integrity.

How's that.


I really don't care what the enemy does.... if we break our own rules, then we suck plain and simple. Nothing can justify that.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
McCain said the same thing. He said that water boarding is torture.
He didn't say 'i believe' ... he said ... 'it is ... ' very strong words.

Both POTUS candidates said waterboarding is torture.

One said it because that's the party line and perhaps because of personal belief.

One said it because he himself was tortured and knows torture when he sees it.

I agree. It's torture.

That being said ... so what? It's torture. The USA tortured bad guys who were trying to destroy our country. Bad guys who were trying to kill us. The USA tortured bad guys who DO NOT RESPECT mercy but see it as a weakness to be exploited ... a reason to attack.

Torture them. I don't care.

Thank you for being honest about your anti-American values.

Originally posted by johnsky
May I remind you that most of them aren't terrorists?

Says you ... and says left wing bloggers and anti-American websites.

Reality says that when these evil pukes are let free they just end up back on the battle field killing our soldiers and innocent civilians.

Reality says that when you start compromising your values because you feel there is no other option, your values become meaningless and you CEASE to be America.

You don't get it do you? That's like justifying Communism because there is no other way...

Originally posted by peponastick
reply to post by SecretUsername

 

I'm basing my below statement on the fact that the all the Conspiracy theories about the big bad USA are untrue. If proven otherwise than the following reply would change.

Wow! I can't believe that the sitting POTUS wouldn't waterboard a terrorist with knowlede of an immenent attact on a major US city.

Let me get this straight.... you can't believe that the sitting POTUS won't compromise American values to save an American City? Well if he did, the city, alive or dead, ceases to be an American City.

He would assume let innocent US civilians die than waterboard a known terrorist. Unbeliveable.

Nope... not unbelievable.... AMERICAN! We DO NOT STOOP TO THE LEVEL OF BARBARIANS for ANY reason.

Maybe in Barack Obama's mind there are no innocent US civilians...after all were just greedy, bitter, selfish, anglo saxxon, slave ownin'(Jerimiah Wright), tea baggin', bible clingin', energy depletin', rednecks. I don't know about the rest of you all here at ATS but last nights "Press Conference" was an eye opener for me.

Third Party....NOW!

It was an eye opener for me as well... Thank GOD we finally have a President with Integrity.

Do you know what Integrity is right? It means doing what's RIGHT even when it HURTS.

But I'm sure you would dend all Jews to concentration camps if you felt it would save a city right?

[edit on 30-4-2009 by HunkaHunka]

Originally posted by mattpryor

We are talking about people that want to kill you. Why? Because they hate you. Because they have a distorted supremacist ideology which views you as inferior and corrupt. Western culture to them is a stain on humanity which needs to be eradicated by any means. That is the ugly nature of Al Qaeda's vision of Jihad, and that is what we're fighting wars against. And sadly they're not going to change their minds because we start being nicer to them.

So say that everything you said here is correct. I STILL believe that torture is wrong.

I say that not because I think that the enemy, who ever is may be, will be 'nicer to us' because we don't torture them, but because it is pat of maintaining a moral high-ground. It is about choosing to rise above the barbarism that inundated the world for so many years.

I am really amazed that so many people believe that it is okay to commit these acts simply because the people who we are using them on are 'bad' or 'hate us'.
Once we make the decision to cross this line, where does ti lead us, who will be the next group that it is okay to torture for one reason or another. How long before they are torturing you and me?

reply to post by Animal


I respect your values and moral stance, but the facts remain that bad people get captured who have information that can save innocent lives.

There are two extremes you can go to when extracting that information from them:

1) Ask them politely
2) Get your most brutal and sadistic torturer and do the most horrific things imaginable to them until you garner the information.

1 is ineffective and 2 is barbaric. Somewhere in between there has to be a compromise.

Originally posted by HunkaHunka
Thank you for being honest about your anti-American values.

Caring more about innocent Americans then terrorist murders isn't 'anti-American values'. that was pretty lame Hunka ... you usually do better than that.

Again .. if waterboarding - which IS torture - is used on terrorist pukes and it saves innocent Americans, then I don't care ... go ahead and waterboard them.

These people are mass murderers. They promote mass murder.

Having said that if giving them bowls of ice cream and cartons of cigarettes would get the job done then fine.

The goal is simply to stop another mass killing.

How can we stumble over our quaint little notions when dealing with folk that set themselves off in shopping markets and at funerals and weddings?

Being great and doing the right thing means setting aside cumbersome definitions and idealist restraints in prisoner handling/information gathering, if we value life.

We value life then we defend life from those that dont value it. We should recognize nothing but their blood thirsty madness and deal with them in a fitting manner.




[edit on 30-4-2009 by Logarock]

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by HunkaHunka
Thank you for being honest about your anti-American values.

Caring more about innocent Americans then terrorist murders isn't 'anti-American values'.

that was pretty lame Hunka ... you usually do better than that.

Again .. if waterboarding - which IS torture - is used on terrorist pukes and it saves innocent Americans, then I don't care ... go ahead and waterboard them.

Your stance is that "The ends justify the means"

My stance is that "Compromising Integrity of Values when it comes to Human Rights, is Anti-American, regardless if it saves lives or not"

You see , your values appear to say that "as long as it saves lives... you could fillet someone alive, and it would be just fine"

I don't agree with that. I believe that is Anti-American because it's the quickest way to corrupt our morals.

Originally posted by Logarock
These people are mass murders. They promote mass murder.

Having said that if giving them bowls of ice cream and cartons of cigarettes would get the job done then fine.

The goal is simply to stop another mass killing.

No it's not... it's to stop another mass killing without becoming Monsters our selves.

Keep in mind we called the Japanese monsters for doing this very thing... and now you want to vindicate the same actions?

If we don't prosecute the torturers in the last administration to the fullest extent of the law, then we need to pardon all of the Japanese that we EXECUTED for doing the same things to us.

Keep in mind, they were trying to stop a mass killing on a city...

So were they right then and we were wrong? Or are we right now, and folks like I am wrong.... it's one or the other... you can't have it both ways.


Here is news story where McCain talks about how we Hanged the Japanese who were responsible for water boarding.

www.cbsnews.com...

So what gives? We either murdered these people, or those in our previous Admin should be hanged....

Unless you advocate lawlessness.

[edit on 30-4-2009 by HunkaHunka]

All the water boarding demo i have seen is half correct. After the towel is on the face a board is placed in the mouth to assist the torture. Hence water-Board

The board ensure you cant close your mouth... must be horrifying... Fire and water... scary deaths

Some people here listen to too much fox news when the repbulicans were in power.

Nobody in the middle east hates you for your freedom

If China had bases all over the world and installed a puppet govt. in your country you know.... you just might grow up being someone else.

It's not only terroists, no one on the planet likes america's foreign policy.

So you can criticize blowback as much as you want, but that argument goes straight into a dead end. And you'll keep on saying the same argument but that brick wall will never leave your sight until you have a more realistic perspective.

It's time to start thinking again!

Originally posted by HunkaHunka
your values appear to say that "as long as it saves lives... you could fillet someone alive, and it would be just fine"

No.

My 'value' is exactly as I say it is.

As long as it saves our lives, I have no problem with waterboarding terrorist pukes who want to destroy me and my family.

They are guilty. My family is innocent.

You left that part out ... my INNOCENT family being saved by waterboarding the GUILTY murderers.

I look at my innocent daughter ... and then I look at guilty UBL ...

I say - go ahead and waterboard him if it'll save my child.

Again .. I have no problem with this. None.

And that's not 'anti-american'.

Originally posted by HunkaHunka

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by HunkaHunka

Your stance is that "The ends justify the means"

My stance is that "Compromising Integrity of Values when it comes to Human Rights, is Anti-American, regardless if it saves lives or not"

You see , your values appear to say that "as long as it saves lives... you could fillet someone alive, and it would be just fine"

I don't agree with that. I believe that is Anti-American because it's the quickest way to corrupt our morals.

You are extending out to skinning people alive. Well fine but I must then challenge your idea of "our morals". This society does a lot of things that others in it consider below our morality but these things are legal so the moral question doesn't enter in to those that exercise these legalities.

Challenging water boarding becouse it violates the landscape of our national morality is not even an argument that we could find any basis in reality to make. Simply becouse rank hypocrisy is the color of that landscape.

[edit on 30-4-2009 by Logarock]

What bothers me is people claiming to be "patriots" telling people there not "American" because they share a different view than what they have. I'm a sorry but that is what America is about, like it or not. It's sad you claim you fought for this country but can't understand that basic concept. You must resort to the same actions you say oppose. I'm sure people will start throwing the Constitution and the Bill of Rights around now to fit there own personal agenda now too. Some people think the terrorist should have been killed right away, some want them to have the rights of Americans.. hell some of them would be more than happy to give them social security and medicare no matter what there stance is, they are still an American. I view these as "personal" attacks and wonder why there so frequently allowed to slip thru our "moderators". Where in calling someone non-American are they contributing to the discussion? It's nothing more than trolling and a personal attack all combined in few short words.

This is how I feel and I am a AMERICAN, born and raised.. people have and still are bleeding for my rights to have my own thoughts and beliefs. I have all the documents to prove it so I don't want to hear it. Disagree all you want with me.. it does not bother me. I'm glad your able too have your own thoughts too and the freedom to express it.

So I believe it is not morally it's not right to torture anyone.. that is my stance. Especially when there are other ways to extract information that are far more effective. But war is not a moral at all now is it? In fact its quite the opposite. Is it more right to slaughter someone than to torture them? Its all just a savage mentality that most humans have in them but don't want to admit it when it comes to themselves. All this war and conflict to accomplish what.. to proclaim that your "god" was on your side or to have some more useless oil? Its all savage and has no justification. There is plenty of land on this planet for everyone to coexist peacefully. Therefore any country who goes to war for anything other than protecting itself from a serious threat cannot claim to be a moral country. It is really sad that represents most of the world. If humans lived in peace who knows how far they could have came... well maybe next round will do better!

Originally posted by HunkaHunka

Originally posted by Logarock

No it's not... it's to stop another mass killing without becoming Monsters our selves.

Keep in mind we called the Japanese monsters for doing this very thing... and now you want to vindicate the same actions?


So were they right then and we were wrong? Or are we right now, and folks like I am wrong.... it's one or the other... you can't have it both ways.


[edit on 30-4-2009 by HunkaHunka]

Well again you are expanding away from waterboarding. The Japaneses were doing much worse. They certainly were not hanged for water boarding alone.

McCain? Wow I wonder what he thinks about our own bombing of civilians. Naturally hes going to get hung up on torture but it probably has more to do with the pain of the actual torture than it does with why he was being tortured. Does he believe the NV had the right to torture him for vengeance or information about bombing Hanoi?

Worrying about becoming a monster over water boarding to stop a mass killing is like bringing a plastic toy gun to a fire fight. When your killing enemy with lead bullets you suddenly want to start pondering the morality of water boarding?

Originally posted by SecretUsername


So I believe it is not morally it's not right to torture anyone.. that is my stance. Especially when there are other ways to extract information that are far more effective. But war is not a moral at all now is it?

So what would those other methods be?

Whatever they are other methods cannot be condoned without acknowledging the just nature of our cause. And for the record, many are certain that waterboarding isn't torture. Its not boiling oil, the rack, ect. Its simply not torture and I dont care what Obama or McCain say about it but am glad they have the right to express these opinions.

War is moral if justified. Just take our current war against the failing economy. Justification was made to condemn future generations to the tax burden even though it is very immoral. Now thats torture.!!!!!!

what i see as one of the most humorous things about the pro-torture stance people here on ats is how they think they know BETTER than the professionals.

i love how they assure us that although these acts are heinous they are essential to protect lives.

lets have a quick look at what professionals in the fields of intelligence and military think on the issue:

From the Army Field Manual:

PROHIBITION AGAINST USE OF FORCE

The use of force, mental torture, threats, insults, or exposure to unpleasant and inhumane treatment of any kind is prohibited by law and is neither authorized nor. condoned by the US Government. Experience indicates that the use of force is not necessary to gain the cooperation of sources for interrogation. Therefore, the use of force is a poor technique, as it yields unreliable results, may damage subsequent collection efforts, and can induce the source to say whatever he thinks the interrogator wants to hear. However, the use of force is not to be confused with psychological ploys, verbal trickery, or other nonviolent and noncoercive ruses used by the interrogator in questioning hesitant or uncooperative sources.

link

Pentagon's Chief Lawyer:

The military agency that provided advice on harsh interrogation techniques for use against terrorism suspects referred to the application of extreme duress as "torture" in a July 2002 document sent to the Pentagon's chief lawyer and warned that it would produce "unreliable information."

link

Veteran CIA Officers:

Some perennially high-profile retired CIA officers like Bob Baer, Frank Anderson, and Vincent Cannistraro recently spoke out to Knight Ridder about their opposition to torture on practical grounds (Cannistraro said that detainees will "say virtually anything to end their torment"). But over the past 18 months, several lesser-known former officers have been trying, publicly and privately, to convince both the agency and the public that torture and other unduly coercive questioning tactics are morally wrong as well.

link

these excerpts were dug up in 10 minutes, I am sure I could flood you with similar pieces of information if I wanted to put int he time.

so why should i listen to a bunch of keyboard commandos talk about protecting our nation as a justification for torture when the REAL heroes are saying the opposite?

it is hard to comprehend what makes the lot of you think you know better? is it because the leader of your party of choice, the drug addict, rush limbaugh told you what the REAL truth was?

if not that than what makes you think you have some form of superior knowledge to the PROFESSIONALS who deal with these matters?

i am sorry but those who keep towing the pro-torture line look more and more idiotic and sheep like with ever day that passes.

'24' is not real life, jack bower does not exist, and those who have / had 'jack bowers' job disagree with the use of torture so why don't you?

three cheers for obama for sticking up for what is right.


[edit on 30-4-2009 by Animal]

you guys can take those ideals and morals right to the grave with you, lol. Yeah, according to the obama administration there called some other b.s. name that him and napolatano came up with. There religion teaches them to beat the piss out of women because they can and kill women and children in the name of their god. I want a president who will do whatever is necessary to keep us safe, not worry about what anyone thinks of us. Opinions aren't going to matter much if your dead, lol. Wake up, this is still happening...ask all the people who ran for their lives while they playing with a jet right above ground zero, lol. Some of you guys have your priorities all wrong.

Originally posted by Jnewell33
There religion teaches them to beat the piss out of women because they can and kill women and children in the name of their god.

What? So we should feel entitled to 'beat the piss out of them' because they did it first? I would like to see what moral theory you base this drivel on.

you guys can take those ideals and morals right to the grave with you, lol....I want a president who will do whatever is necessary to keep us safe, not worry about what anyone thinks of us. Opinions aren't going to matter much if your dead, lol. Wake up, this is still happening...ask all the people who ran for their lives while they playing with a jet right above ground zero, lol. Some of you guys have your priorities all wrong.

Read my post directly above yours. President Obama is doing the RIGHT thing to keep us safe. It has been the stance of both the military and the Intelligence communities of the USA that torture does NOT work, leads to ironious information, damages the potential for future information collecting and is simply a BAD tactic.

Perhaps it is time you start listening to the PROFESSIONALS in these fields rather than political-spin-machines.