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Tasered man kills policemen in shoot-out

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posted on Apr, 28 2009 @ 09:50 PM
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That's all well and good Dooper, perhaps this guy did have it coming; perhaps he was a miserable excuse for a human being; perhaps he was off his rocker and the world is better off without him. But the fact remains that it was the police who escalated the violence. When pushed, people, sane or not, tend to push back. I know this happened in your backyard and so naturally it affects you more than it does me, but the employment of tasers is flat out wrong. Police are public servants and protectors, not cattle herders. Zapping a person with high voltage is no less obscene than beating your wife.

You'll recall the Polish gentleman tasered to death by the RCMP in Vancouver airport? His only crime was not speaking English. I know one of the officers involved. He knew what happened was his fault. He knew it was wrong. Him and his three cop buddies wanted to taser someone. He said as much. As punishment he was placed on paid leave and told to lay low until the whole thing blew over. The RCMP later rescinded its policy of filing extensive paperwork every time a taser is used. That's MY neighbourhood story. So you'll forgive me if I don't give a rats ass whether or not this guy was scum.




posted on Apr, 29 2009 @ 01:37 AM
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this story reminds me of a happening around here in my area.

.From another township policeman (who I "occasionally" work for in his landscaping biz, and also carries a taser when he is working).

Story is ,About a local township policeman (which was never in the paper).
Who is now running for District Magistrate.
this certain officer has had other "undesireable results" . Guy thinks he's a dirty harry

Shot a local (mentally Handicapped, missed a med dose,I believe) in the Chest, double tapped him.

the perp supposedly had a Baseball bat in his possesion when the officer confronted him.
Now in this type of situation seems like a Taser would have worked , or maybe shoot the guy in leg ?
Some pepper spray perhaps ? and tackle him ?
its not like the perp was a known violent person.
mentally handicapped, retarded.

this is a cop who needs to be retired.

and I know there are quite a few people in this "Rural country township"
that would love to see him go.



posted on Apr, 29 2009 @ 02:42 AM
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Originally posted by Highground

Originally posted by MarkusMaximus
You know......

Tasers are hailed by the law enforcement community for their "non-lethal" nature...

WHICH MEANS...

...that they couldn't charge you with use of a deadly weapon if you used one against an officer in self-defense...

You give that a go, and get back to me on the outcome


I wonder if Taser International would supply the experts and testimony that they do when it is officer who has electrocuted an individual....

...We all know that tasers don't kill anyone - the death is always caused by pre-existing conditions


[edit on 29-4-2009 by Exuberant1]



posted on Apr, 29 2009 @ 05:22 AM
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Originally posted by cbianchi513
reply to post by The Last Man on Earth
 


Call me cold and heartless, but I'm glad "Skip" learned this final lesson in etiquitte.



Etiquette...right. So these 2 cops go to apphrehend this guy whose put his 21 year old girlfriend in hospital and this PSYCHO, (yeh he is a psycho) just opens fire on them after an electric shock? (Don't give me that they're cripplingly painful cos I've been hit with one, and I'm a 20 year old lad... it was pathetic, I've had worse shocks off a dvd player)

There is no lesson learned here, 2 cops dead for nothing whatsoever. Just cos some ass was probably off his face on drugs. The taser obviously didn't bother the guy that much or he wouldn't have had the focus to empty a round against 2 armored cops.

What a nutjob.. a lot of you guys talk about police brutality.. blah blah blah

They wouldn't need guns and be so god damn trigger happy if the rest of the coutry weren't carrying em!

Unbelievable stupidity in here

[edit on 29-4-2009 by ItsallCrazy]



posted on Apr, 29 2009 @ 05:36 AM
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I have shocked myself intentionally and accidentally at many times. About 50K volts both steady and pulsed.

And it's the pulsed that's (a lot)more painful. I was shocked in my arm once, it was intense feeling of pain and reflexes. It also left my arm slightly paralyzed.

If I was tazed and had a gun at that time, I would've done the same thing!!



posted on Apr, 29 2009 @ 06:28 AM
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reply to post by ahnggk
 


Don't know the voltage that I was hit with or if it was steady or pulsed but it didn't hurt that much. Made me grit my teeth and drop to my knees, that was about it.

Have definitely had worse shocks off mains plugs at home! And I can safely say I would not have whipped out a pistol, especially after they let the power off! I can see retribution being an issue if they'd held the current on until the guy wet himself or whatever but a 5 second shock does not dignify shooting 2 cops



posted on Apr, 29 2009 @ 06:37 AM
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Originally posted by ItsallCrazy

They wouldn't need guns and be so god damn trigger happy if the rest of the coutry weren't carrying em!



Blaming the victims in advance now??



Originally posted by ItsallCrazy
Don't know the voltage that I was hit with or if it was steady or pulsed but it didn't hurt that much.


Pain don't bother you much either...



posted on Apr, 29 2009 @ 06:46 AM
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reply to post by finishr1
 


I think I remember this story... coupla years ago. The kid was Bipolar, and was off his meds.

It was in Enola, the cop was East Penn Regional... Am I on the mark here? If I'm way off, this is eerily similar.

Nice to see another local. At least you understand the local situation, and the palpable public frustration in this very unique area in our "wonderful" commonwealth.


EDIT: I just wanted to thank Dooper for the details that are always left out by the media, including personal info on the persons involved. I know that your local area must be in a state of shock over this... Understandably. Thanks again for the REAL story.
[edit on 29/4/09 by cbianchi513]

[edit on 29/4/09 by cbianchi513]



posted on Apr, 29 2009 @ 08:04 AM
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Originally posted by dooper

When the officers in the next county got the word that officers were down, they weren't about to let that SOB get away.

And he didn't.

[edit on 28-4-2009 by dooper]


So, the officers (I use that term loosely) in the next county acted like the judge, jury and executioner? Aren't they supposed to protect the ideals of our way of law, in other words innocent until proven guilty? Is this an example of why people in general and not just this psycho resent the police? Are they above the law they are sworn to uphold?



posted on Apr, 29 2009 @ 12:44 PM
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I think the distinction between rule of law and being ruled is lost on many. Police have a tough job, no doubt. But as public servants and enforcers of the law they need to be held more accountable, not less. Police actions that may be considered unconstitutional, especially those resulting in death, must be scrutinized thoroughly, independent of any personal feelings towards the police or the perpetrators. Otherwise we risk being ruled by those we task to uphold our laws. Remember that the police work for us and respect is a two way street. I sincerely hope an impartial investigation will be held into this incident (though being a cynic I have my doubts) and the result will be a serious re-evaluation of tasers as a law enforcement tool. If police require our compliance and respect, then we as their employers must demand theirs.

[edit on 29-4-2009 by Orwells Ghost]



posted on Apr, 29 2009 @ 01:15 PM
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Originally posted by Orwells Ghost
reply to post by Retseh
 


Save your sanctimonious moralizing for church. If you treat someone like an animal, they'll act like an animal. It's not idiotic or disgusting, it's nature. Go and punch a rottweiler, see what happens. Are you going to blame the dog for the consequences of that action? This is no different. If there was no indication that this man would get violent, then there was no need for the taser. Bring him in, charge him with something and give him a fair trial. What's that called...oh yeah, due process. These cops made a horrible mistake, and they paid horribly. How's that for Karma?


You know, it's hard to know how someone ends up with your mindset, but it does at least remind me of the reason I own firearms.

Your definition of cops making a horrible mistake, would appear to coincide with the requirements of their job, I wonder how exactly you would deal with a violent offender.

As for your inane comment that there was no indication he would get violent, it seems they made a pretty good call on that one when he drew a concelaed weapon and murdered them both with it.

No worries though, with your attitude towards law enforcement, I'm fairly confident you have either already had a run in, or are about to.



posted on Apr, 29 2009 @ 01:32 PM
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Originally posted by Retseh

You know, it's hard to know how someone ends up with your mindset, but it does at least remind me of the reason I own firearms.


I agree with you. Approaching a level playing field is a lot easier way to be diplomatic from the get go. I'm also glad that We the People have our second amendment.



No worries though, with your attitude towards law enforcement, I'm fairly confident you have either already had a run in, or are about to.


Spoken like a true cop. Thanks for your input.

If officers learn to be a little more diplomatic, (although I question the helpfulness or sanity in doing so in the case this thread is about) there would be no percieved "need" for tasers.

I'm all for peace officers being as heavily armed as the opposition in cases where the only option is deadly force. Hell, in cases like that bank robbery/shootout in LA a bunch of years ago, I thought the police were UNDER armed!

I just worry about the "non" lethal options clouding their people and professional skills.

[edit on 29/4/09 by cbianchi513]



posted on Apr, 29 2009 @ 02:14 PM
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reply to post by Retseh
 


Inane comment? Read the article friend. It comes from the horses mouth. As for the cops horrible mistake, yes I consider electrocuting someone and not expecting a response to be a real doozy. And FYI, I am a licensed firearm owner myself, and a strong proponent of guns rights.

[edit on 29-4-2009 by Orwells Ghost]



posted on Apr, 29 2009 @ 03:44 PM
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Right on , and 2 others ... I am not military , heck the closest i have got 2 war is call of duty 4...

But tac. goes along way... I have thought of plan a , B , and c ...
Run to the hills ... get a R.V. or stand my ground... Stand Our Ground is the only way ...

Small patriot groups of 7, or 8 Strong... Must have Short Wave Single Side Band Communication..
We must fortify homes , and Dig in strong... (Bottle neck Kill zones ) in attic look outs sandbagged, and Hard...

Good point to remember , Waco times a thousand... Hot zones as they will be called (individual American homes ) will be targeted by the C-130 guns and leveled one by one ...

But not before they have first tested the target, and lost persons and cant secure target ( Hard Target. )

So my question 2 all is , Are you going 2 be a hard target or soft ? Hard targets For All ...
I will get my quota , Quack Quack , MAKE A STAND ! You going 2 RUN from a Duck !!!

I took my oath as a citizen and I will defend it ... (Static Defense)
I have no other choice ...



posted on Apr, 29 2009 @ 07:12 PM
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reply to post by Orwells Ghost
 


You're correct of course, the police escalated the violence. They escalated the violence not nearly enough. They couldn't wrestle this big bastard down, he was as strong as a bull, he refused to be handcuffed so precisely what in hell would you propose?

They couldn't just shoot the bastard, but they should have.

I think cops need a frikking harpoon. Stand off, shoot the harpoon through the jerks, tie it off behind the car, and then drive to the jail.

There's a whole ton of people out there that need shooting, but for whatever reason, it's against the law!

No. The cops did not escalate diddly squat.

They should have pulled weapons immediately upon his refusal, and shot the bastard if he moved, while they called in backup.

And the other officers down the road in the next county? They already knew that this bug-crazy bastard was not going to stop on his own - they were going to have to stop him.

He had already shown a propensity for deadly violence, and if that's what he wanted, then why let the man go away disappointed?

Or get further down the road and kill someone else?

The officers died by being too nice.



posted on Apr, 29 2009 @ 07:34 PM
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reply to post by dooper
 



Now this brings up another point that bothers me Dooper. Was this guy like a pro linebacker or something? It seems to me that the Sheriff's office had dealings with this guy before, and he already had quite the reputation around town.

If this guy was such a bruiser, and these two 45 year old deputies went to apprehend him themselves...

Doesn't that seem just a little bit like reckless bravado on their part?

I agree with you, they should have had lots of backup. They knew the guy's size, his temperment, and his "affection" for the police. They also knew he was at a shooting range!

You realize I'm playing devil's advocate, but I won't be the last to ask these questions. I'm sure you have investigative journalists all over this incident.


EDIT: punctuation.



[edit on 29/4/09 by cbianchi513]



posted on Apr, 29 2009 @ 07:41 PM
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reply to post by cbianchi513
 


They went to talk to him, and initially, he was calm and talked. The officers were only to take him down to have him booked, and a judge would then decide to let him post bail or whatever.

They do this same thing day in and day out. No real problems. They tried talking, being nice, asking for his cooperation, and at some point, he wasn't having any of it.

When things turn to doo-doo, they usually turn real fast.

Usually the taser will convince someone to knock off the wise-guy stuff and cooperate.

This guy came up blasting with a non-licensed concealed weapon.

There was no visible indicator of a weapon, so they imprudently didn't pull theirs. At the first moment of trouble, my thinking is the weapons should come out.

And from now on, maybe they will.

Just stupid all the way around.



posted on Apr, 29 2009 @ 08:02 PM
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Originally posted by Orwells Ghost
That's all well and good Dooper, perhaps this guy did have it coming; perhaps he was a miserable excuse for a human being; perhaps he was off his rocker and the world is better off without him. But the fact remains that it was the police who escalated the violence. When pushed, people, sane or not, tend to push back. I know this happened in your backyard and so naturally it affects you more than it does me, but the employment of tasers is flat out wrong. Police are public servants and protectors, not cattle herders. Zapping a person with high voltage is no less obscene than beating your wife.

You'll recall the Polish gentleman tasered to death by the RCMP in Vancouver airport? His only crime was not speaking English. I know one of the officers involved. He knew what happened was his fault. He knew it was wrong. Him and his three cop buddies wanted to taser someone. He said as much. As punishment he was placed on paid leave and told to lay low until the whole thing blew over. The RCMP later rescinded its policy of filing extensive paperwork every time a taser is used. That's MY neighbourhood story. So you'll forgive me if I don't give a rats ass whether or not this guy was scum.


So by your definition, all police are power abusers. Just like all Mexicans are fruit-pickers and all blacks are robbers, right? When they tried to give the man reasonable doubt, he shoved it back in their faces. They tried to take him down with the LTL munitions, and he came back with full-on-lethal. What the Hell were they supposed to do? Just politely talk to him, "Oh, we're sorry, we didn't realise you were irate. We'll come by your house later after you've cooled off by beating on your wife some more?" It was a scenario that was going to go south, anyway, and the only reason the police died was because they were being TOO cautious in trying to protect civil rights, they were trying NOT to be judge, jury, and executioner.

I think in this case, it's (SHOCK) a simple case of two cops trying to do their job, do it correctly and by the book, and they paid for it with their lives. If they had been one of those "raged" cops you lot seem to talk about all the time, dude would have been shot and it would be over, six children still with their daddies.



posted on May, 3 2009 @ 11:59 AM
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I think the cops deserved it for not having more common "cents" than a dirt road, none.



posted on May, 3 2009 @ 12:28 PM
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Originally posted by cbianchi513

Bully for the shooter! One less power tripping a-hole drawing breath.

I am glad that cowardice finally gets it's just dessert. Hopefully this starts happening more often.


What the hells your problem?

Are you condoning the killing of a police officer and hoping it happens on a more frequent basis?

Talk about ignorance, assuming all cops are on a power trip




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