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Tasered man kills policemen in shoot-out

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posted on Apr, 28 2009 @ 10:32 AM
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Originally posted by Retseh
I'll try asking the same question more slowly for you "What militia group?".


i'll try this again, Florida National Guard unit based in Crestview.

the national guard is a militia

here is a quote from the first paragraph of the "about the national guard" page of the national guard website.


Responsible for their own defense, the colonists drew on English military tradition and organized their able-bodied male citizens into militias.




posted on Apr, 28 2009 @ 10:36 AM
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Both deputies were wearing bulletproof vests but were shot in areas not protected by the vests, he said.


Coincidence/fluke by an untrained amateur, or the deliberate crack-shots of a professional killer?

You decide.



posted on Apr, 28 2009 @ 10:36 AM
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Originally posted by pieman

Originally posted by Retseh
I'll try asking the same question more slowly for you "What militia group?".


i'll try this again, Florida National Guard unit based in Crestview.

the national guard is a militia

here is a quote from the first paragraph of the "about the national guard" page of the national guard website.


Responsible for their own defense, the colonists drew on English military tradition and organized their able-bodied male citizens into militias.


Ahhhh...I see what you are saying.

I think the "difference" might be this from the opening article:



But Spooner said Cartwright was a member of a Florida National Guard unit based in Crestview. He said Cartwright also was interested in militia groups and weapons training.


That appears to indicate a difference between the National Guard (which I am sure you could consider a "militia," even though it's an apparatus of the MILITARY), and "militia groups," as in, well, you know...rural Texas-style compounds with guns and rebel flags and such...



posted on Apr, 28 2009 @ 10:45 AM
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You know, I just thought of something... I don't know about FL state law, but the minute you are even accused of domestic violence in my state, guilty or not... They revoke any carry permits you may hold, as well as require you to surrender your firearms to the county sheriff for "safekeeping". So much for due process.

What I'm getting at: This very well could have not only been an attempt to apprehend, but an attempt to disarm as well.

I hope TPTB get the underlying message, but I'm sure they won't.

Also, to the poster that suggests this shooter could have been SF... I personally flipped my truck back in November at about 65mph. After releasing my belt, I climbed right out without so much as a bump, and helped the lady that ran me off the road out of her car... Just saying, it's possible for a "normal" guy to do this, and I wasn't anywhere near as motivated as this man.

[edit on 28/4/09 by cbianchi513]



posted on Apr, 28 2009 @ 10:49 AM
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Originally posted by MarkusMaximus
That appears to indicate a difference between the National Guard (which I am sure you could consider a "militia," even though it's an apparatus of the MILITARY), and "militia groups," as in, well, you know...rural Texas-style compounds with guns and rebel flags and such...


yeah, so?
the cops are trying to determine his level of training, that's all.

frankly, i want to know where he got his training too, so i can get some.
he was tazered and then took out two cops wearing armour before driving away, then when his truck was flipped he came out the back window shooting!!

whereever he was trained was hardcore.



posted on Apr, 28 2009 @ 10:52 AM
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Originally posted by pieman

i'll try this again, Florida National Guard unit based in Crestview.

the national guard is a militia



When the media talks about "militias" they are invariably referring to the handful of loons who wander around the Idaho woods armed with SKS rifles and a deep distrust of the government.

To try and suggest that this article is referring the Florida National Guard as a militia is nonsense.

But.....they ARE trying to link the military to the militias, and that's actually my point, and it's also Napolitano's latest smear campaign too.



posted on Apr, 28 2009 @ 10:54 AM
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Originally posted by pieman

frankly, i want to know where he got his training too, so i can get some.
he was tazered and then took out two cops wearing armour before driving away, then when his truck was flipped he came out the back window shooting!!


That's called muscle memory. He was honing it at the range. You know that cops wear vests to protect their "kill zone", so he adjusted a few feet up. Tougher shot, but there you have it.

I already told you that a tolerance to tasers can be achieved. It hurts like mad, but someday may pay off.



whereever he was trained was hardcore.


I don't think we'll ever get the truth on this. In fact, I'm sure TPTB just learned a lesson about just what a mostly self-trained individual is truly capable of when pressed too far.

No matter what, this will be used as "ammunition" to further vilify combat vets, militias, gun owners, and patriots in general.

Gotta go read my pocket Constitution... somebody tase me.



posted on Apr, 28 2009 @ 10:58 AM
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Originally posted by pieman
whereever he was trained was hardcore.





posted on Apr, 28 2009 @ 11:05 AM
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Originally posted by cbianchi513
I hope TPTB get the underlying message, but I'm sure they won't.

Also, to the poster that suggests this shooter could have been SF... I personally flipped my truck back in November at about 65mph. After releasing my belt, I climbed right out without so much as a bump, and helped the lady that ran me off the road out of her car... Just saying, it's possible for a "normal" guy to do this, and I wasn't anywhere near as motivated as this man.

[edit on 28/4/09 by cbianchi513]


You are honestly telling us that you could then have engaged in a clearly level-.ed firefight with police (he was using his truck for cover, not just trying to run away) immediately after having a crash? I don't believe you. I think you would have been shaken to hell and back by the experience, and no amount of muscle-man talk is going to persuade me otherwise, I'm afraid.

This man was fighting to win, and he didn't care how many cops he took out trying to do it. He could have surrendered at any time, and he could have already have been shot by the previous engagement in which he was definitely tasered.

IMO only Hollywood heroes are this hard, so this man was clearly not just part of a fat-assed, never-seen-combat militia...



posted on Apr, 28 2009 @ 11:17 AM
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reply to post by MarkusMaximus
 


This seems like another example of poor planning and thinking on the behalf of the police.

A similar incident of police carelessness - not involving a gun but a knife - happened in this country a few years ago. Police called to the sceane failed to take the necessary precautions to protect themselves.

Why didn't the police wait for him at his home, where he would have been in a relaxed state.

The trouble was in starting the conflict in the first place, and the assumption that the tasered man would not defend himself. The gun ho attitude of those who should think more logically really gets on my wick





posted on Apr, 28 2009 @ 11:20 AM
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reply to post by The Last Man on Earth
 


Try reading my post, which you have conveniently quoted.

I clearly stated that I was not NEAR as motivated as this individual. I will say that the massive amount of adrenaline that must have been coursing through this man certainly played a major role.

I was just trying to illustrate how sensationalized and one-sided this article truly is.

There is certainly a (not so) hidden agenda.



posted on Apr, 28 2009 @ 11:25 AM
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Originally posted by cbianchi513
reply to post by The Last Man on Earth
 


Try reading my post, which you have conveniently quoted.

I clearly stated that I was not NEAR as motivated as this individual. I will say that the massive amount of adrenaline that must have been coursing through this man certainly played a major role.

I was just trying to illustrate how sensationalized and one-sided this article truly is.

There is certainly a (not so) hidden agenda.



The adrenaline rush this man must have experienced would have probably left me a crippled, useless husk of gibbering fear, curled up into a ball on the floor.

To react in such a controlled and deadly manner after having your vehicle flip over with you inside it would require some pretty intense training.

I do agree, however, that the article is incredibly biased. Why do I need to know that on of the cop's nicknames was "skip"?



posted on Apr, 28 2009 @ 11:29 AM
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I really don't see the point in tasers. They cause unnecessary suffering to the perp who generally hasn't committed an offence to warrant such a reaction - often only non-compliance rather than any kind of resistance/violence.

If a cop is threatened they have a gun to first use to threaten and warn, and then to use to defend themselves.

I think cops increasingly use tazers as a 'punishment' - perp doesn't comply so punish him with the taser.

We don't have summary justice for a reason - so this is out of order.

There are 1001 other non-lethal and also non-painful alternatives including the sticky gun type thing mentioned earlier, and the spider-web like device that fires a net and essentially tangles up the perp so they can't move...

All seem much more logical than tasers.

What also concerns me in the UK is that cops use tasers with pistol grips - i.e. they are being utilised as 'quick draw' weapons. This says to me an officer will deploy a taser in a split second decision rather than as a considered action when all other options have been exhausted.

Also - when did they ask us, the public?

Surly something as serious as arming cops should have gone to national referendum?



posted on Apr, 28 2009 @ 11:31 AM
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reply to post by The Last Man on Earth
 


We'll call us BOTH right... I agree that the man obviously either had a bit of combat experience, or trained for it. You can't teach keeping a cool . under fire though, so who knows.

Of course they are giving the cops' names to personify them. Old psychological lawyer trick. It builds sympathy if you can put a name to an individual.

Call me cold and heartless, but I'm glad "Skip" learned this final lesson in etiquitte.



posted on Apr, 28 2009 @ 11:31 AM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Apr, 28 2009 @ 11:38 AM
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post removed for serious violation of ATS Terms & Conditions



posted on Apr, 28 2009 @ 11:51 AM
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Gun Range: Probably the Worst Place to Execute an Arrest Warrant



Broward Palm Beach Blog


"Joshua Cartwright had had a few hours to cool off and wasn't anywhere near his wife. When the deputies arrived at the clay range about 12:48 p.m., 28-year-old Cartwright was standing by his truck and there was no weapon in sight."

What?!? Unless the guy's beating his wife at the gun range, best to advise one's deputies to approach at a time when the suspect hasn't just finished some target practice.


This blog contains some video footage of the aftermath.



posted on Apr, 28 2009 @ 11:59 AM
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It would seem that Taser abuse is not limited to Canada, and that people have reached a point where they aren't willing to just accept the ritual abuse offered up by the constabulary.

None of us really know what transpired in this instance, only what the biased reporting provides, but we can hypothesize on what may have happened by examining some of the patterns of previous police engagements.

It would seem that often police will use a taser as a "compliance" tool, and not as a defensive weapon. If this person were to have been at all, confrontational with the police, an this seems likely, the police may have resorted to the taser to "force compliance".

Now here is a fellow, who is obviously having some marital issues, is accused of domestic violence and is out at the range shooing some targets. Maybe he's the wife beater we are being led to believe, or maybe he's just not as successful as his wife would like and is being emasculated by her. I don't know, but I've seen arguments where the woman doesn't hold back at all with the emasculating comments. So if he blows up at her, and pushes her out of the way, as he exits the house, then her calling the police, makes him a wife beater. We all know how we feel about those.

So, on the way out of the range, he's approached by two police, who are aware of his home situation, and perhaps chose to "stand up for the woman" and teach this wife beater that this, "isn't how we treat women around here". He may have tried to explain the situation, and with the usual police understanding they completely ignored him. He becomes emphatic about his position, the situation escalates and bam they tase him for compliance.

Well, given the above situation, and the probability of anyone actually listening to him, feeling the pain of the situation and of the taser, maybe he just had enough. Gets up and takes out his frustrations on the police, who are the immediate threat. Once you shoot two policemen, you pretty much know you aren't going to see much of a trial, so it's running/fighting for your life at that point.

My point here, is that perhaps "Skip" and his partner should have offered this guy to go for a coffee, and let him express his side of the situation. He would have been able to calm down, vent and reduce the situation to where he would have been a lot more pliable in being taken to the station and being written up. Sure, no one would have died, and there wouldn't have been the chance to power trip on anyone, but the situation would have been resolved and "Skip" would be home with his family rather than dead.

Again, we don't really know what caused this guy to "wig" out and start shooting, but I have a hard time thinking that he woke up in the morning, decided to beat the wife, hit the range and shoot any mo-fo that got in his way. More likely a little bit of understanding on the part of the police, some tact and a little compassion would have changed this into a non-story.

This whole situation goes to show that the police have the opportunity to make any situation better or worse. And that each of us has a breaking point that once reached will push us to the very limits of sanity. If you think you are above reaching your breaking point, you just haven't been pushed enough. Hopefully, you won't ever be. Maybe it's instances like this that will force a change in policy for the better.

Thanks for reading.

..Ex



posted on Apr, 28 2009 @ 12:01 PM
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Originally posted by cbianchi513
reply to post by The Last Man on Earth
 


We'll call us BOTH right... I agree that the man obviously either had a bit of combat experience, or trained for it. You can't teach keeping a cool . under fire though, so who knows.

Of course they are giving the cops' names to personify them. Old psychological lawyer trick. It builds sympathy if you can put a name to an individual.

Call me cold and heartless, but I'm glad "Skip" learned this final lesson in etiquitte.



I too think keeping a cool . in a combat situation is probably mostly down to experience, rather than training.

In my mind, "Skip" has been personified as that fat, dick-. Texan sheriff who throws his giant belly around because he's the one with the gun. Strangely, I don't sympathise.

What amazes me, though, is the sheer tenacity of this guy's attacks. After my car had gone over, I would probably accept that I was done and due to be quickly arrested, not gone out, guns-blazing, to take out my pursuers...



posted on Apr, 28 2009 @ 12:01 PM
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Originally posted by Dark Soldier



the only lesson to be learned here is that you are a POS loser and i hope you suffer the same fate as the officer.

[edit on 28-4-2009 by Dark Soldier]


Nice... I'm ready, are you? I'm sure I will suffer the same fate. I won't take the shot, chip, go to the camp, or surrender my firearms.

This guy is my hero, minus the wife beating allegations.

Does it count if I'm currently wearing a wife beater?



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