Originally posted by chiron613
If this pandemic comes, I will likely try to get a vaccination. Really, you have to balance the harm done by vaccines, against the harm done by the flu. Most of the time, it's not worth it. The flu is unpleasant, but you survive. However, if it's killing lots of people, it makes sense to try to get immunized. Just my own personal take on that.

yep i fully agree with that statement. i'd rather take the risk of a bit of mercury than the risk of death from the pandemic. i think natural selection will do a lot to take out people who are against vaccination sure some may be immune just like the survivors of the black plague, but most won't be that lucky. i wonder though how many hard-core anti-vaccination theorists will get vaccinated once they watch friends or even strangers dropping dead all around.

Originally posted by Salvatore_Rubberface
How is it that these sort of viruses always start in some 3rd world countries where there are people that are less important to the sustenance of the earth?

Because the impoverished Third World has significantly lower health safety standards, no environmental protection agencies, no local centers for disease control, and horrible educational systems. So, for example, the people of the Third World simply don't know that raw human excrement is not an acceptable fertilizer for human food crops.

In Central America, more specifically, it's a common practice for agricultural field workers to drop their pants to defecate and urinate right in the food crops that they are planting or harvesting.

Then they illegally immigrate to farmlands in the USA, bringing their unsavory and unsanitary habits with them. Next thing you know, we have these "mystery" outbreaks of produce-borne diseases, traced back to the farms of California or Texas or wherever, places in which illegal alien workers are extensively employed. And the stories then "mysteriously" drop out of the headlines.

So, no, there's no "gubbmint conspiracy" for testing new bio-weapons on Third World nations. The idea is ludicrous. What use is the data from such a test without controls? What use is testing a laboratory-generated virus in a country where the health safety standards are already so low that diseases such as Cholera and Salmonella and Tuberculosis and Haanta and Ebola are commonplace in the general population? Your clinical controls and test results are completely lost.

The Third World is a hotbed of human diseases that are all but eradicated in advanced Western Civilization. That's why these sort of viruses always start up in the Third World.

— Doc Velocity

Originally posted by DarkSecret
i think natural selection will do a lot to take out people who are against vaccination... i wonder though how many hard-core anti-vaccination theorists will get vaccinated once they watch friends or even strangers dropping dead all around.

You seem to be laboring under the delusion that your life is so ideal that it must be preserved at all costs, even if it means weakening the Human species as a whole.

See, immunization does not makes us stronger as a species. Immunization only permits the weak to artificially survive the process of Natural Selection. Those who are naturally capable of surviving will survive, even without vaccines. But the weak are supposed to fall away, making the herd stronger. In the natural scheme of things, we large primate omnivores should never have reached our present catastrophic population levels, save for the shortsighted intervention of medical science.

Through vaccines, we've only temporarily skewed Natural Selection in our favor, but the price is far too high for us to pay — we now have this morbidly bloated global Human population, comprised mainly of weaklings who cannot survive without incessant medical intervention and an endless regimen of immunization.

For what purpose? What is so invaluable about the quality of our lives that we must survive as a grossly overpopulated species, endangering the continued health of the global ecosystem?

Look, I'm not a Climate Change fanatic — I don't think global warming is manmade, I think we're just sensationalizing a slightly irregular solar activity cycle. But I do think that we are over-extending our natural resources and have done so for over a century as our Human population expanded seven-fold.

For the continued survival of our species and the health of the planet, the great bulk of Humanity needs to die off for a few years. I don't care if it's me and my family or you and yours who survive, but we need to do it without mass-immunization programs.

Because, one way or another, you're going to wake up one morning and your quick-fix vaccines won't be there for you... Then we're going to see exactly who are the real survivors.

— Doc Velocity

Originally posted by Doc Velocity

Originally posted by DarkSecret
i think natural selection will do a lot to take out people who are against vaccination... i wonder though how many hard-core anti-vaccination theorists will get vaccinated once they watch friends or even strangers dropping dead all around.

You seem to be laboring under the delusion that your life is so ideal that it must be preserved at all costs, even if it means weakening the Human species as a whole.

See, immunization does not makes us stronger as a species. Immunization only permits the weak to artificially survive the process of Natural Selection. Those who are naturally capable of surviving will survive, even without vaccines. But the weak are supposed to fall away, making the herd stronger. In the natural scheme of things, we large primate omnivores should never have reached our present catastrophic population levels, save for the shortsighted intervention of medical science.

Because, one way or another, you're going to wake up one morning and your quick-fix vaccines won't be there for you... Then we're going to see exactly who are the real survivors.

— Doc Velocity

ok this logic sounds like the one of a guy who committed suicide in his bunker more than a half century ago... "some people must die because they are not the perfect race". you're one of them "depopulation" proponents huh? it's not the government that wants to kill people, it's you and your likes. that's why those like you are spreading ideas about government conspiracy, that vaccines are killing instead of saving lives, etc. so even though we do have the technology to prevent disease, such rumors do more to kill people by making the vaccination programs less effective.

humans are not above natural selection but it's part of our cleverness that we can defeat disease. you obviously do not love your life or your family if you have one and want to force your death wish upon others. that's pretty sad.

I could almost agree with those who think we're overpopulated if it weren't for the fact the groups who preach that message always seem to think they're special and entitled to live and that all the dirty, poor, dark people should get out of the way and just die.

Eugenics is an evil thing because of that exact issue.

I got some pretty strange looks today when I bought several pounds of sugar, salt, surgical masks, blood pressure device, heavy duty rubber gloves and several cans of Lysol. I think the lady checking me out thought I was disposing of a body somewhere. When she got to the aquarium tubing and marinade injectors she started looking really, really concerned.

I mentioned the possible pandemic and she didn't have a clue what I was talking about.

I asked my wife to stay in the house for a few days until we see what's up and as usual she went around me and ordered in a pizza for lunch while I was sleeping. I'm beyond pissed off at her at this point. If she doesn't care about our kids and all that I can't do anything about it but basically forcing me to be exposed as well as them? I'm seriously considering just taking my kids and heading for the hunting cabin for a few days. She can stay here and go walk around the mall while breathing deeply for all I care.

The idea that we should just submit to viruses because it is "how it is meant to be" implies that we should be about the same as a rat.

It is "evolution" and "adaptation" that our brains and abilities have developed so that we can save more good brains. Because that IS our evolutionary advantage. Submitting to death as if we don't have brains and intelllect is counter-adaptation.

Just saying - that the libertarian evolutionists are...as usual....idiots who worship dummying down.

[edit on 2009/4/25 by Aeons]

Originally posted by DarkSecret
ok this logic sounds like the one of a guy who committed suicide in his bunker more than a half century ago

So now I'm a Nazi because I know (and you don't know) that mindless overpopulation is certain suicide? Who the hell do you think you are? You think you're so goddamned special that you should artificially survive the process of Natural Selection, even though it means killing the planet? Get an education.

Originally posted by DarkSecret
...that's why those like you are spreading ideas about government conspiracy, that vaccines are killing instead of saving lives, etc. so even though we do have the technology to prevent disease, such rumors do more to kill people by making the vaccination programs less effective.

I've never said that "vaccines kill people"... Vaccines don't kill people, and that's the problem. We do not need to be "saving lives"... We've already saved too many.

Originally posted by DarkSecret
humans are not above natural selection but it's part of our cleverness that we can defeat disease. you obviously do not love your life or your family if you have one and want to force your death wish upon others. that's pretty sad.

"Our cleverness" is a blight on this planet, and "our cleverness" is one-sided, at best — you're a perfect example of how humankind's one-dimensional logic is going to destroy our species and the habitability of Earth.

— Doc Velocity

Anybody told you recently that you and Pol Pot got a lot in common?

Originally posted by Doc Velocity

Originally posted by DarkSecret
ok this logic sounds like the one of a guy who committed suicide in his bunker more than a half century ago

So now I'm a Nazi because I know (and you don't know) that mindless overpopulation is certain suicide? Who the hell do you think you are? You think you're so goddamned special that you should artificially survive the process of Natural Selection, even though it means killing the planet? Get an education.

eugenics has always been used by groups who thought they were better than others. and yes i do think i'm special if you would have some self-respect you would not think it's better that you and some large parts of the humans around you should die.

I've never said that "vaccines kill people"... Vaccines don't kill people, and that's the problem. We do not need to be "saving lives"... We've already saved too many.

i wonder if it's your child or spouse or other loved one you'd also apply the same "saving too many" let them die. it's frightening to have a parent or a spose like you considering you'd let them die if you'd think it's better for the species.

"Our cleverness" is a blight on this planet, and "our cleverness" is one-sided, at best — you're a perfect example of how humankind's one-dimensional logic is going to destroy our species and the habitability of Earth.

— Doc Velocity

like someone else said your mentality is that we should live like animals and die like animals. i think we did that during the dark ages for over 1000 years and it was not pretty. the brain which allowed us to invent and use medicine is our evolutionary advantage and it would be foolish not to use it! i'm assuming you're also having the same "let nature follow its course" if your daughter would be raped for example instead of having an abortion, am i right?

Originally posted by adodson
Vaccine's have had benifits in the past. however in this case the vaccine could be worse than the disease. The vaccine could cause the incubation period to be much longer like 4+ weeks. This will allow for many more people to come in contact with an infected person. Without the vaccine death would occur in 3-4 days.

That's not true. People are vaccinated with weakened strain of viruses that cannot replicate fast. The immune system fingerprints the virus and when the person gets exposed to the existing virus, his immune system mounts timely response before the virus multiplies to the point of causing damage.

Your immune system stores information of every exposure you had and so you can overcome better the exposure to the same virus the next time. The problem is that viruses mutate and in order to develop a vaccine, the new bug must be identified. It's very similar to the way antivirus software protects your computer -- it needs to know how Conflicker looks like.

How many of you have started prepping now, "just in case" and is anyone here from the UK prepping ? I've drawn up a list of everything we'd need for 6 months and am going to this week start getting in a percentage of that then am thinking if it looks like it's going to get bad I'll go on a hell for leather 24-7 spree until I've bought everything. We are both going to find ways to generate extra income in the short term to make extra for supplies...might be a good time now to start flogging stuff on ebay, arranging loans if no other way to get cash, upping the ante on overtime if you are able to get some, cutting back spending on non-essentials , sourcing wholesale outlets , arranging a social fund loan if you are benefits and so forth. If it got really bad I would not want to venture out shopping, I'd rather be prepared with all I need for as long as possible incase of shortages and coming into contact with crowds in supermarkets...