Ascorbic Acid Role in Containment of the World Avian Flu Pandemic

More evidence of inflammation's role with influenza.

Study finds more effective treatment for pneumonia following influenza

McCullers and his colleagues published their findings in the advanced, online issue of the Journal of Infectious Diseases. The researchers based the new treatment on growing evidence that beta-lactams are relatively ineffective against secondary pneumonia because the drugs exacerbate inflammation caused by influenza. “With severe secondary pneumonia, it has seemed that physicians do almost everything they can, and it doesn’t work,” McCullers said. “People still die despite treatment with antibiotics that can kill the bacteria. Our research is showing that the intense inflammatory response that is already there from the virus is amplified by the bacterial infection. Treatment with beta-lactams releases bacterial components into the bloodstream; the immune system recognizes them, triggering an inflammatory burst that can be deadly. “Traditional first-line therapy has been based on the belief that the bacteria are bad, so we have to get rid of them as quickly as possible,” McCullers said. “But what we are finding is that maybe it is the inflammation we need to worry about first, and the bacteria second. Protein synthesis inhibitors shut down the bacterial protein-making factory, and they can avoid the inflammatory burst by killing them over days instead of quickly lysing them.” In their experiments, the St. Jude researchers infected mice with a mild form of influenza that restricted itself to the lungs. After a week, the scientists infected the mice with pneumonia bacteria. This sequence mimics how humans with influenza would contract secondary pneumonia. The researchers treated groups of the doubly infected mice with ampicillin, clindamycin, combined clindamycin and ampicillin, or azithromycin. They found that 56 percent of the mice survived with ampicillin treatment, 82 percent survived with clindamycin, 80 percent with clindamycin and ampicillin, and 92 percent with azithromycin. Significantly, while clindamycin and azithromycin both inhibit protein synthesis, azithromycin also has anti-inflammatory properties. Ampicillin aggravated inflammation compared to clindamycin, the researchers confirmed in test tube studies. The investigators also found evidence of increased inflammation in lung cells of ampicillin-treated animals.

Okay last reply here unless I'm asked a Q. I'm thinking of making a better thread that has all the information put together.

Here's what I've found in my limited research and understanding.

Influenza itself rarely kills people. Most people are already well onto there way of defeating the flu virus, when symptoms start to appear.

What causes death is a result of dehydration or a bacterial infection like pneumonia. Here's what happens, to my limited knowledge.

A person becomes infected with the influenza virus. This virus wreaks havoc on the body, and the immune system is activated. The virus itself causes inflammation, or excessive free-radical damage.

The immune system causes more inflammation in it's actions. The combination of these, plus the fact that the immune system is already compromised from fighting off the virus leads to bacterial infection.

It's like when you get allergies, then a bacterial infection follows. It's because the inflammation from the allergies provides the correct breeding ground for bacterial infections. Same case with the flu.

The way ascorbate helps is by providing it's two electron donors to supress the inflammation before the bacterial infection occurs.

No bacterial infection, plus lots of water = No death from influenza.

If there's a flaw in this logic, please help me out to see it. I don't want to spread ignorance. This issue is too important right now to be spreading nonsense.

edit for: poor spelling corrections

[edit on 26-4-2009 by unityemissions]

What you just posted would be true of most flus.

But in these cases it isn't the opportunistic infections that kill people. It is an over reaction to the virus itself. Virus takes up residence in the lungs, body proceeds to attack the virus AND the lungs.

[edit on 2009/4/26 by Aeons]

reply to post by Aeons


Please, if you can, expand on this. Why would this work on most flus but not these strains?

I thought what you're talking about, the immune system attacking the body, is the inflammation. Is this not so?

In this instance, the ascorbate counters the immune system's over response. That is only if damage to lung is equivalent to inflammation. I really don't know for sure.


Okay I get it now. The virus replicates too often. Too much tissue is damaged. The immune system's response is to kill the cell. Cell becomes dead, inflamed. Body isn't able to regenerate new cells quickly enough for respiratory function. You die.

What if the curbing of the inflammation provides the ideal growth environment? I guess I'm stretching here now. I may be way off. Out of my mind.

I'm going to research this more. I don't understand why so many sources say this works for all flu. They claim the inflammation is the root of the illness. I'm not sure how to explain it, so I don't fully understand it yet.

My bad, ATS. Until I can find something solid I'm at a standstill.

[edit on 26-4-2009 by unityemissions]

Well that didn't take long.

Here's a wiki on cytokine overproduction and how it caused many of the deaths of the 1918 flu epidemic. It even states that the deaths of the 2009 strain seems to be caused by this very effect!!

Here's another link to orthomed which says ascorbate stops the cytokine cascade.



[edit on 26-4-2009 by unityemissions]


Just found this:

Vitamin C - Boosts the immune system and is an antiviral by blocking the enzyme neuraminadase. Viruses need neuraminadase to reproduce. There are anecdotal stories of people taking large amounts of Vitamin C (children ½) surviving the Spanish Flu. Research shows that it may reduce the production of cytokines TNF-a and IL-6. A study on 470 people involved giving the test group 1000 mg hourly for 6 hours and then 1000 mg 3 times daily after reporting flu symptoms. Symptoms decreased by 85%. (Pubmed PMID 10543583, 634178, 16169205, 12876306)

from here

My friend is studying to be a neuroscientist. She's got a PubMed account. I'll look this up soon and post details of this.

[edit on 26-4-2009 by unityemissions]

[edit on 26-4-2009 by unityemissions]

If you are not sick, you should not be taking any. Let your body function normally as is. Let your immune system build a natural strength. It makes no sense to saturate your body with ascorbate if you are well and healthy.

reply to post by YourForever


It makes no sense to you. That much I can see. Have you read any of these articles?

The whole problem is that the body lost it's ability to synthesize ascorbic acid a long time ago.

It makes PERFECT sense to nourish the body with what it needs for optimal function.

Ascorbic acid has over 10,000 functions in the human body. If you only provide a small amount, it won't activate all of these!

Linus Pauling, father of orthomolecular therapy, and (the only) two time Nobel prize winner, insisted that everyone is suffering from sub-clinical scurvy.

Everyone could use lage doses of ascorbic acid for preventative measures, optimal health, and to treat disease.

You need to be very, very careful.

While the study may show the relationship to vitamin C and a good strong immune responses via Tcell count; what kills healthy humans in swine flue cases is a good strong immune response from the healthiest people.

Their own defenses kill them. So if you super boost your immune response, you may be committing suicide.

So far the Mexican Swine flue outbreak looks to be no more deadly than seasonal flu.


Relax and have a nice cup of herbal tea. Stay away from extreme measures.

[edit on 29-4-2009 by Cyberbian]

reply to post by Cyberbian


This is getting a bit frustrating. See the post up...what three spots?

It talks about the body's immune over-response. It's called a cytokine storm.

Vitamin-C inhibits the overproduction of the two pro inflammatory cytokines linked in the cytokine storm.

THIS WORKS FOR ALL FLU.

Secondary bacterial infections, virus, & immune systems over-response.


[edit on 29-4-2009 by unityemissions]

[edit on 29-4-2009 by unityemissions]

Originally posted by unityemissions
I personally take 5 or more grams daily. If I feel any sort of cold coming on, I double the dosage.

I've been on this high-dosage for the last eight months and have yet to be sick!

Well i havn't been eating any vitamin c in pill form, or anything good apart from fish oil, i havn't eaten fruit in a long while, i do get some vegies into me here and there, i smoke, drink lots of energy drinks (far more than the recommended dosage), drink alcohol, and have been getting fatter and fatter for about 8 months now, eating lots of packs of salt and vinegar chips, taking my anti-depressants everyday and also lots of pain-killers as i have a really bad neck and back, and this is probably the first time in about 8 months that i've gotten sick and no i havn't been to mexico ;-P

Originally posted by DaRAGE


Well i havn't been eating any vitamin c in pill form, or anything good apart from fish oil, i havn't eaten fruit in a long while, i do get some vegies into me here and there, i smoke, drink lots of energy drinks (far more than the recommended dosage), drink alcohol, and have been getting fatter and fatter for about 8 months now, eating lots of packs of salt and vinegar chips, taking my anti-depressants everyday and also lots of pain-killers as i have a really bad neck and back, and this is probably the first time in about 8 months that i've gotten sick and no i havn't been to mexico ;-P

Are you my long lost brother? lol
Now may be the time to test out some high dose vitamin C

reply to post by unityemissions

Unity I take my hat off to you for going to the trouble of learning about this and sharing it with us.

I've been studying vitamins for years, and you are perfectly right. Many problems humans suffer from are caused by us lacking the ability most animals have of synthesising vitamin C.

Vitamin C, in sufficient quantities, would not only help protect from the virus, fight it if you do catch it, and protect from bacterial opportunistic infections, but it will also protect against the cytokine storm observed in the 1918 pandemic. Taking cod liver oil and vitamin C regularly beforehand strengthens the lung tissues, and once you catch it vitamin C and ginger are great anti-inflammatories.

Most people, conditioned by the RDAs we see printed so often, have no idea of the benefits in taking optimum amounts of vitamin C, (approaching what an animal our size would make for themselves.) Instead, they take long-term sub-optimal health, the saggy skin of aging, and osteoporosis for granted, never realizing how easily they can be prevented.

Just for a quick example, for 30 years now, because of a health condition, I've had 20 grams of ascorbic acid a day; rather more than I'd recommend to the average person. I've had false teeth for fifteen years now, and my original ones still fit perfectly; there has been no gum shrinkage. My dental technician says that's unheard of. At 56 I still have no wrinkles or face sag, and I'm sure that's all the vitamin C combined with a diet that is mostly oats, beans and vegetables. And when I got meningitis and had no-one to mind my children, I refused a hospital stay, got home and took half a kilo of ascorbic acid in the next 3 (agonising and half delirious) days, then was well enough to be a proper mother again.

It never even gave me the runs. When you need more of it you absorb more, and it's only the unabsorbed part that causes a fast bowel movement. Taking enough to make sure you excrete a little from bowel and bladder could possibly protect these vital organs from infection.

I don't advise anyone treat themselves for serious diseases like that, it's much too risky, but it did show me what vitamin C (and determination) is capable of.

I have been taking massive doses of Vitamin C for years in a rather unorthodox way. I know about problems with acid and dental enamel, etc. So... no lectures please. I always rinse well after ingesting my Vitamin C. I'm not worried. The squeamish might want to stop reading now....

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I eat frozen Orange Juice Concentrate straight from the can with a fork! I love the stuff. If there were a container of my favorite ice cream sitting next to the OJ... I would always choose the OJ. Actually I no longer eat ice cream. I try to limit myself to half a can at a time. I probably go through one can a day. Frozen concentrated OJ in a can is my friend! I can't get enough of the stuff! It may also have been a contributing factor in my speedy recovery from what I believe was a bout of H1N1. ATS Flu Post

Oh... go ahead and try it. It works.... tastes good too. :-)

Originally posted by KOGDOG

I eat frozen Orange Juice Concentrate straight from the can with a fork! I love the stuff. If there were a container of my favorite ice cream sitting next to the OJ... I would always choose the OJ.

Did you ever read any books by Adelle Davis?
She was a brilliant American nutritionist with very sensible recommendations.
She was a great fan of frozen orange juice concentrate.

But do try and make sure, if you are in America, it's made in America from American oranges. Many imported concentrates have the vitamins removed and sold separately.

American or Australian juice concentrate is packed full of bioflavenoids and potassium, as well as vitamin C.

Another confirmation that ascorbic acid reduces the cytokines IL-6 and TNF-a. The amount used is equivalent to 7 grams daily for a 155lb man.

Summary Lathyrism is characterized by defective collagen synthesis due to inhibition of lysyl oxidase, an enzyme essential for interfibrillar cross-linking. The lathyritic agent bgr-aminoproprionitrile (bgr-APN) is considered an appropriate agent for studying connective tissue metabolism. We investigated the effects of ascorbic acid on collagen structure and serum cytokine levels in experimentally induced lathyrism. Forty Wistar rats weighing 200–300 g were used in the study: three test groups of 10 rats each (groups 2, 3 and 4) and 10 rats used as a control group (group 1). Experimental lathyrism was induced with daily subcutaneous injections of bgr-APN in the test groups for 40 days. On the 40th day, skin biopsies were taken from the control group (group 1) and group 2, to evaluate the effect of bgr-APN on dermal collagen. After the 40th day, 10 rats received ascorbic acid 100 mg/kg intraperitoneally daily for 15 days (group 3) and 10 rats (group 4) received no medication and served as a control for group 3. On the 55th day, skin biopsies were taken from groups 3 and 4. Serum concentrations of interleukin-6 and tumour necrosis factor-agr were assessed in each group by enzyme-linked immunosorbent assay. Ultrastructural examination of the skin biopsies in group 1 revealed normal-appearing epidermal and dermal structures. Group 2 showed disorganization of the epidermis and collagen structure, and vacuolization of the endoplasmic reticulum in fibroblasts. In group 3, ultrastructural examination revealed significant improvement in the structure of dermal collagen after administration of ascorbic acid, whereas the changes in group 4 were unremarkable. Ascorbic acid administration significantly decreased the concentrations of serum cytokines in group 3 compared with group 2 (P < 0.001). Ascorbic acid administration significantly improved dermal collagen structure and serum cytokine levels in experimental lathyrism.

Abstract only



[edit on 26-6-2009 by unityemissions]

reply to post by YourForever

If you are not sick, you should not be taking any. Let your body function normally as is. Let your immune system build a natural strength. It makes no sense to saturate your body with ascorbate if you are well and healthy.

I have been on a 4g regimen for the last 25yrs. The last time I had flu was in 2002.

reply to post by unityemissions


ASCORBIC ACID IS JUST SNAKE OIL.NO PROOF IT STOPS BIRD FLU OR SWINE FLU.

always take tamiflu.it will save you.

it can stop you from dying.

vitamins don't work.

no proof of vitamins stopping bird flu.it is just snake oil.

ALWAYS CONSULT YOUR DOCTOR.

your doctor knows best.they have been trained for 8 years.


contact your doctor for tamiflu before it runs out.

HURRAY.

reply to post by esecallum


Green tea is as effective as tamiflu, cheaper and natural

What do you mean by vitamins don't work?!! Do you know what the definition of a vitamin is? Ascorbic acid, as I've already shown, prevents the cytokine storm and prevents excessive inflammation. It also has bactericidal properties to fight off pneumonia or other secondary infections. It will boost the immune system where needed, and regulate it as well. How would these combined functions not help to keep someone from dying of flu? I've read through MANY papers about how patients recovered from various infections through high-dose vitamin-c. The evidence has been ABUNDANT for decades, but still there is the notion that "vitamins don't work".

It's sad, really.

I'm not sure if there was some sarcasm in your post or not. Seems a bit looney!

I most definitely don't trust the majority of allopathic doctors.

We are our own best doctors.

Oh, and I've had 26 years of training into what works best for me.


Here's a good read for the skeptics and curious alike.

Klenner successfully treated severe cases of influenza with doses as large as 24 g every 12 hours (Klenner, 1949, 1971). It was also reported that using a few grams per day in treating influenza produced significant results (Albanese, 1947 & Magne, 1963). Moreover, smaller doses such as 300 mg were found to be effective in reducing the duration of the illness by 25 percent (Kimbarowksi and Mokrow, 1967). Investigators have also reported that vitamin C had been used in treating bacterial infections. A study in 1937 showed that an ascorbate concentration of 1 mg per deciliter inhibits the growth of tuberculosis bacterium (Boissevin, Spillane 1937). Likewise, ascorbate has been effective in treating other bacteria and their toxins. The bacteria that cause typhoid fever include diphtheria, tetanus and staphylococcus infections, and their toxins include diphtheria, tetanus, staphylococcus and dysentery and (references are given by Stone, 1972). Bacteria may be inactivated in the same manner ascorbate facilitates inactivation in the virus; free radicals are created by an interaction between ascorbate and oxygen, which is catalyzed by copper ions, and as a result the free radicals attack the bacteria (Pauling, 1976).

Vitamin-C cures Avian Flu, Polio, etc.?

[edit on 29-6-2009 by unityemissions]

That is fake info by the vitamin c lobby.it is NOT peer reviewed.

it is snake oil.

it is NOT FDA,EPS approved.

ONLY TAMILFLU CAN SAVE YOU.

Hurray why stocks last.see your doctor now.

reply to post by esecallum


This information is not fake. I'd like you to substantiate that claim, please.

If you have the thinking that only something which gets FDA approved is real, you're just being a bit ignorant.

FDA is bought out by pharmaceutical lobbyists.

Why would anyone pay for tamiflu, when you could just drink green tea, or better yet, get the fruit extract from which the drug is synthesized?


[edit on 2-7-2009 by unityemissions]