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Obama legal team wants to limit defendants' rights

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posted on Apr, 24 2009 @ 02:49 PM
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reply to post by The Killah29
 


If everybody is equal in property and anything else in their lives, where is the incentive to progress. Without reward there is no reason to excell. It's the idea to succeed is to gain and thats normal human nature. Your idea is utopian and ignores human nature which cannot be legislated out of existence no matter what the socialists tend to try to convince us!

Zindo




posted on Apr, 24 2009 @ 02:49 PM
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Some people in this thread make me sick
.

I've seen many on ATS defending the Bush administration, the Patriot Act, the war in Iraq, torture.

So I'm very disappointed to see people pointing fingers at Obama supporters. It's all about your political ideology, you don't give a damn about our "rights", you simply care that a more liberal president who doesn't adhere to your belief system is the one taking them away now. Truly despicable.

I gave Bush a chance; I even gave his war a chance. I changed my mind when the evidence showed what kind of man he was, and I’m doing the same thing with Obama. I had many good reasons for voting for him, he was a politician who worked for several years for things I believed in, mainly including the middle class and the poorest of Americans. I never claimed he was the messiah some made him out to be, but I did have some faith in him, it’s all slipped away by this point. It’s clear like Clinton and Bush he is in bed with the corporatist. I’m tired of him continuing with this change talk and I’m generally tired of him.

But guess what, he’s still better than Bush and Cheney and I stand by that belief. Just about any liar, thief, or whorer in politics is better than Bush and Cheney.



posted on Apr, 24 2009 @ 02:56 PM
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reply to post by ModernAcademia
 


No offense taken, what you said is what I ask myself sometimes. LOL

I am just glad that I am waking up and trust me, this issue here is going to change a whole lot of minds in the black community, trust me. That is if it is ever really given enough press for them to know. Rest assured I am getting this to my family, some are regular folks, some street people, some university students....this has to be known!



posted on Apr, 24 2009 @ 02:58 PM
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reply to post by rapinbatsisaltherage
 


The "I voted for him because he's better than the last president" is a wasted vote!

All that was needed was a good ear, don't trivialize the act of decision making.

How can someone who endorses nothing but a gimmick like the word "change" and "hope" that he never defined hope for change?

Don't vote for the person, vote for the policies and direction that he wants.



posted on Apr, 24 2009 @ 03:00 PM
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reply to post by ModernAcademia
 




The "I voted for him because he's better than the last president" is a wasted vote!


I NEVER stated that in my post, that is not why I voted for him, in fact I stated why I voted for him and that was not it.

My Bush statement was unrelated.



posted on Apr, 24 2009 @ 03:01 PM
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Originally posted by The Killah29
BTW, a democratic-socialsm isn't wrong or evil. the consept that everyone is equal, everyone gets a say/vote, everyone gets equal wages, property size, free health care, etc is right. there would be no homeless, disease would drastically drop in the number of cases.

The problem is the corrupt ones on top.


In Democracy "everyone" does not have the same rights. In Democracy the mob rules, or the mayority rules, and the mayority can take away the rights of minorities if the mayority votes for this.

Iraq under Saddam Hussein was a Democracy, where mayority groups took away the rights of minorities, such as the Kurds, and even murdered them.

You are talking about Communism, the claim that everyone will be the same, and noone will be poor, which is nothing more than BS. Yes, everyone is the same, as in as poor as the mayority, and everyone is opressed.

In True Socialism/Communism there is no concern for the individual, but just supposedly for the whole, but in such a system the STATE(government) is supposed to be the people, but since individuality is destroyed, as in not important, then the STATE does not represent the people, but just what the group in power in the STATE claims is best for the people.

Through true Socialism/Communism over 110 million people have been murdered, without counting casualties at war, and millions have been imprisoned for their "political beliefs".

Now we see in every country slowly implementing more Communist, or true Socialist, programs that are meant to control the people.

In Canada now the police can confiscate your property if a police officer can convince a judge that you "could" be involved in a crime.


To the surprise of at least one legal expert, the Supreme Court of Canada last week unanimously gave the provinces incredible powers to seize assets allegedly connected to crime.

For a country that has gained the reputation, whether deserved or not, of protecting the rights of the accused over the rights of victims, it's quite an about-face.

As one worried reader e-mailed the other day: "This is a terrifying development. If the police even suspect you of a crime, they can take all your stuff. They don't have to prove it."

Is he right? "Yes and no," says University of Manitoba law professor Michelle Gallant. The cops can take your car, for instance, if they think you're using it to sell drugs.

But the police have to persuade a judge that, on a balance of probabilities, the vehicle is connected to crime. And that's much easier to show than providing evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that someone is guilty of a crime.

In other words, if the police want your car, house, money or any other assets, they can get away with it without even arresting you as long as they convince a judge something doesn't smell right. No conviction necessary.

"It's kind of scary," says Gallant, an expert in proceeds of crime, who never thought Canada would embrace such wide-ranging legislation.

www.torontosun.com...

in the United States, after all the SOcialist programs that have been implemented, more are being set up.

Now Obama wants judges to take away the right of a detained person from having a lawyer when such person is interrogated. Not to mention that it is already law that American children are now going to be indoctrinated by the Corporation, starting since primary, and will be taught what the Corporation wants...

I have been warning about this for years, alongside millions of people who have experienced Communism who have given warnings for much longer.

Socialist programs have been slowly implemented in coutnries such as the U.S. for a reason, and that is to control and oppress the people, and not to give you more rights.

The one difference is that now the Corporation, whatever this Corporation is, is also in control, and will be indoctrinating children, just like children in Communist states, and just like 1930s Germany Hitler's youth were indoctrinated.

We will see sons, turning in parents for mere, and stupid offences, and parents turning in sons, and daughters because they believe their "Messiah" can do no wrong, and unfortunately we will see worse, not only in the United States, but every country in the world.




[edit on 24-4-2009 by ElectricUniverse]



posted on Apr, 24 2009 @ 03:03 PM
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okay - the topic of the thread is the possible limiting of defendant's rights, not political philosophy or your personal voting record.

Can we possibly keep on topic and you are welcome to start a new thread to discuss other topics


thank you



posted on Apr, 24 2009 @ 03:04 PM
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reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler
 


You have broken this down to a perfect T! Incarceration is a billion dollar industry. Yet incarceration is no longer good enough for the American people nor the facilities. We scream and cry about the abuses to the people who have been tortured as suspected terrorists and actual ones, and well we should. But all over the US this goes on every day as we tighten the grips of the so called judicial system and our precious rights.

As we see this happen by the so called most liberal politician things do look bad. Remember everyone, if god forbid you ever have too much to drink and cause any harm to another....you too could be behind those bars. This matters, and we need to bring this up to all we know!!!!

Oh, just for the record here, I am a girl, well I was a few years ago!



posted on Apr, 24 2009 @ 03:09 PM
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This article is an interesting spin of the general facts

The 5th Amendment of the US constitution gives the the very inportant right not to testify against yourself, for any reason that you even you think may incriminate you in any way shape or form, and not just limited to the current case against you but for anything that may even persuade someone some where that you may be possibly involved in any act that may remotely be illegal

This is one of the most important things you will ever need to know in terms of legal rights.

The case against you starts the moment the police arrive on the scene.

There is no advantage what so ever to speaking with the police when you may be implicated in any way with an illegal act

Why?

The police are allowed to lie to trick you into a confession of guilt

The police may not remember correctly the events or details as you described them

Anything that you say that may help your case in completely inadmissible in the case against you

85 % of all criminal cases end in a confession of guilt

A confession is your voluntary dismissal of your right to due process
never confess, if you are guilty most likely you will be convicted anyway so whats the rush ?

There was concern in the 1980s in the legal world of prosecutors because many defendants were getting mistrials by convincing the judge or jury that that the defendant had not been given due process because of an early confession, so they nations police department began a program of not asking for a confession, basically not saying"did you do it" before the defendant had met with a lawyer

This was never about protecting citizens rights, it was about preventing good cases against very guilty people from being dismissed by procedural error

This led to a higher percentage of convictions

Here is a must watch video about the powerThe Fifth Amendment The Fifth Amendment



posted on Apr, 24 2009 @ 03:13 PM
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reply to post by ElectricUniverse
 


Okay, I am open to this!

This is how I personally viewed this at the time. I saw this as a great thing considering that I live in the inner city and see way too many young people with no skills, no education, doing nothing but getting into trouble. I saw this as a way for these kids to see that there is more to life than the streets they hang on and to give them a chance to do something they may feel good about. I also have a strong sense of community and think that being involved with your community very important.

The darker side of this just did not occur to me, it seemed like a way to reinvigorate neighborhoods and people. It is only 50 hours a year so it didn't seem like a big deal. I also didn't know a thing about the seniors being mandated to service either.

It is all about the perspective from which we see these things. I am not a stupid person, but my perspective was limited, hence my choices were skewed.

That was then....and thank god, .....this is now!


edited: I will stay on topic now, sorry.

[edit on 4/24/2009 by redhead57]



posted on Apr, 24 2009 @ 03:19 PM
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Originally posted by ElectricUniverse

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
I think people trapped in seeing this as a partisan thing are in fact trapped.

I truly believe whether McCain was elected or Obama was elected that most if not all of the same policies would have materialized and been pushed into law one way or another.
............


With Mccain we wouldn't have had as many Socialist programs being implemented, and we would have had more time to fight this legally.

Did anyone not notice the look on McCain from about the middle of the elections which seemed to be a man who was defeated, or someone who was warned to "stay away or something will happen to you"?

He did not even fight as much as he could in key states, and postponed going to some states.

McCain had the look of a man who was admitting defeat and didn't want to fight for the President office.


I think if you take a look at some of what you have just written here my friend you are providing a lot of your own answers.

No McCain did not fight hard for the Presidency which by the way seemed to become his strategy after having a sit down with Lady Rothschild in France during the late summer.

The powers that be needed to to switch away from a Republican Conservative Administation to a liberal Democratic one because the plans the Powers that Be had envisioned to capitalize on the Financial Crisis would require socialist style programs that are out of characther for Republicans.

Notice that Bush wrote the first Bail Out but he could not get Republicans to go along with it, he needed to have Franks, Reid and Pelosi push it through the house.

Had McCain won he would have been tasked with carrying out similiar policies that the voting democrats not the house democrats would have rejected because they came from a Republican and the voting republicans and the house republicans would have by and large rejected because they weren't Republican in principal. It would have badly damaged the two party illusion pushing through that agenda with McCain which is why it was necessary in the Power that Be's eyes to put a Democrat and a very liberal socialist leaning one in charge so the Powers that Be can have their legislation enacted and whether you want to believe it or not, that is who the Congress passes legislation for the Powers that Be. The Powers that Be get them elected just like they get the President Elected.

McCain threw his own race just like George H.W. threw his reelection bid.

You want to ascribe to the theories of the Constitution and the Parties Platforms and I don't blame you my friend for wanting to believe in the over all sanctity of the system and it's over all honesty.

It is not honest though and it hasn't been since the Civil War.

It really is the International Corporations that run the world and run our country in my humble oppinion, the game of politics is just a dog and pony show to divide, distract and conquer the masses.



posted on Apr, 24 2009 @ 03:23 PM
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Originally posted by redhead57

The darker side of this just did not occur to me, it seemed like a way to reinvigorate neighborhoods and people. It is only 50 hours a year so it didn't seem like a big deal. I also didn't know a thing about the seniors being mandated to service either.
..................



Even one hour of mandatory service, is one hour of hard labour. This is the way it starts. At least you now see the problem, and I will tell you that Republicans, in the Republican party are, for the most part as guilty as Democrats. Both parties have been allowing UnConstitutional programs being implemented, and we need to get back to our roots. To run the country the way the forefathers of this Republic agreed to.

With McCain in power, he would have been set up also to continue setting up similar programs to control the people, but it would have been slower, giving us more time to fight back in every legal way possible.

TPTB through the Federal Reserve are in control of this nation, and that is one of the first things we need to get rid of if we want to get the country back to the people.

Just like Americans did during the TEA demonstrations, in which Americans from all parties were united, that's more of what has to happen. We need to show solidarity because part of the goal of TPTB was to turn Americans against each other, as well as people from other nations.


[edited to add comment]

[edit on 24-4-2009 by ElectricUniverse]



posted on Apr, 24 2009 @ 03:33 PM
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Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler

With Mccain we wouldn't have had as many Socialist programs being implemented, and we would have had more time to fight this legally.

Did anyone not notice the look on McCain from about the middle of the elections which seemed to be a man who was defeated, or someone who was warned to "stay away or something will happen to you"?

He did not even fight as much as he could in key states, and postponed going to some states.

McCain had the look of a man who was admitting defeat and didn't want to fight for the President office.


I think if you take a look at some of what you have just written here my friend you are providing a lot of your own answers.

No McCain did not fight hard for the Presidency which by the way seemed to become his strategy after having a sit down with Lady Rothschild in France during the late summer.

The powers that be needed to to switch away from a Republican Conservative Administation to a liberal Democratic one because the plans the Powers that Be had envisioned to capitalize on the Financial Crisis would require socialist style programs that are out of characther for Republicans.
.................


In great part I agree with you, except that the whole problem started when TPTB implemented the first Socialist program that was the buinding block for dissolving, and transforming the Republic, the Federal Reserve.

Some time after Woodrow Wilson had signed into law the Federal Reserve Act, he stated that he finally understood he had set up in motion the destruction of the United States.

This is what Woodrow Wilson said back in 1919



"I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is now controlled by its system of credit.
We are no longer a government free of opinion, no longer a government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men." U.S. President Woodrow Wilson 1919



posted on Apr, 24 2009 @ 04:04 PM
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reply to post by ElectricUniverse
 




In great part I agree with you, except that the whole problem started when TPTB implemented the first Socialist program that was the buinding block for dissolving, and transforming the Republic, the Federal Reserve.

Some time after Woodrow Wilson had signed into law the Federal Reserve Act, he stated that he finally understood he had set up in motion the destruction of the United States.

This is what Woodrow Wilson said back in 1919


That is true, and Woodrow Wilson was likewise badly duped into entering the 1st World War which in large part is why the Congress did not ratify the League of Nations and Versailles Treaties.

Yet it was Abraham Lincoln who started destroying many of the Constitutional principals of the Republic in his zeal to prosecute the Civil War to a succesful conclusion for the Union.

Lincoln was the first to introduce Greenback currency, worthless fiat instrument of debt bank notes not backed by precious metals or gold. The very first attempt to do so actually transpired in the Revolutionary War when the Continental Congress issued the Continental Dollar spawning the saying "Not worth a Continental" as the script was basically worthless and in part what drove the war to a succesfull conclusion for the young Republic was a desire by so many creditors to have their worthless Continental Notes honored by a fully empowered to tax permanent goverment that would hopefully take place after the war.

The Greenback though held 87% of it's face value as opposed to the Continentals 5%!

There was almost no distinquishment between the Greenback and Gold in value that my friend is what opened the door to the Federal Reserve System.

Additionally during reconstruction the Original 13th Amendment which would have barred Lawyers titled Esquires to take part in the Government was quitely replaced with the current 13th Amendment which does not in fact free the slaves but makes us all slaves of equal distinction to the Federal Government that greatly expanded it's powers and powers over States and States rights during the Civil War.

It also began the rise of the Northern Idustrialists who would become American's aristocracy better known as the Powers that Be.

Its my contention by 1865 American's chance to live up to it's Constitutional potential was forever shattered and it's all be down hill in well plotted out and coordinated increments since then to create such a gradual slide that it's full effect and purpose or even that it is happening would never truly be recognized until after the complete submergence of America's sovereignty...

Which is surpsise surprise pretty much upon us!

On topic, no Obama is not the change candidate that he alluded to being but another tryrant like Lincoln whom he Obama publicly admires and sees as a political mentor and hails from the some State politically.

Lincoln the man who suspended Habeus Corpus and issued an Arrest Warrant for the Cheif Justice of the Supreme Court.

Good old honest Abe!

Wilson was just a good old honest dupe!



posted on Apr, 24 2009 @ 04:04 PM
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reply to post by GhostR1der
 


Why do the authorities not want to honor a defendant's right to counsel? Because a defendant who has good legal advice is likely to understand his rights and will make informed and sound decisions.

Why do authorities who know that a defendant has a lawyer or that a defendant has asked for a lawyer not want to notify the lawyer that they want to question the defendant? Because the lawyer will object to any questioning in his absence.

The current rule protects defendants from police who lie by saying that a defendant who has a lawyer or who has requested a lawyer made a statement which s/he in fact did not make. It is never an issue because the police' assertions that such statements were made cannot be used against the defendant in court. It also protects defendants from being coerced by police and prosecutors into making a questionable or false confession, again because doing so is a waste of the authorities' time since it can't be used in court.

The rights of defendants who have a lawyer and who have asked for a lawyer to have legal advice before questioning by the authorities, who have all the weight of government behind them, is a fundamental and critical right that must be protected.

There is no excuse for Obama's apparent position on this issue. It is a slap in the face of everyone who believed him to be a supporter of the people's rights.

The only possible justification I see is that he may be looking for a Supreme Court decision that strengthens and reaffirms defendant's rights rather than limits them, like playing the devil's advocate. The only way that can happen is if the Supreme Court revisits the issue with vigorous argument on both sides of the issue..

[edit on 4/24/2009 by dubiousone]



posted on Apr, 24 2009 @ 04:19 PM
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Originally posted by redhead57
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler
 


You have broken this down to a perfect T! Incarceration is a billion dollar industry. Yet incarceration is no longer good enough for the American people nor the facilities. We scream and cry about the abuses to the people who have been tortured as suspected terrorists and actual ones, and well we should. But all over the US this goes on every day as we tighten the grips of the so called judicial system and our precious rights.

As we see this happen by the so called most liberal politician things do look bad. Remember everyone, if god forbid you ever have too much to drink and cause any harm to another....you too could be behind those bars. This matters, and we need to bring this up to all we know!!!!

Oh, just for the record here, I am a girl, well I was a few years ago!


In many ways this slide towards abuse of the penal system in violating prisoners rights to not be subjected to cruel and inhuman punishment is a by product of the Prison Industrial Complex being too well fed by the Security Industrial Complex.

The war on drugs plus the in limbo status of many illegal aliens who are incarcerated beyond their sentences because their countries of origins refuse to take them back create an over crowding especially in maximum security facilities that puts intense pressure on inmates who have to vie for sleeping space and basic comforts like hygene in often violently competitive ways.

This creates a tension in the Prison populace that begins to more reguarly and seriously eye the thin blue line that stands between them and freedom of movement.

They become more belligerent towards penal staff more often as a result of the harsh conditions and deprevations brought on by over crowding and penal staff feeling threatened and looking to keep an upper hand then begin to single out those with leadership potential amongst their peers in the prisoner population to put the screws too through violent intimidations, punishments, deprevation of privelages and increased isolation, hoping to keep an upper hand in desperate conditions through desperate measures.

The War on Drugs just needs to end period. Legalizing narcotics will take the criminal ellement out of it, lower the prices to reduce the stress of adicts having to break laws to earn the income for maintaining their addictions and allow pharmacists to team with self help groups and social out reach programs to better identify addicts in a less stigmatized atmosphere to help people with personality disorders hooked on drugs to compensate for their inability to cope with the complexities of life to begin the learn to cope with every day stresses in more productive more social ways.

It will elliminate foreign based narco wars, probably allow us to pull out of Afghanistan as it's opium crop will no longer be so lucrative to maintain through a force of arms, and keep so much American currency from being irrevocably lost to over seas drug lords who are at the opposite ends of distribution pipelines that sometimes strech 10,000 miles or more.

Prisons could get back to the task of focusing less stressed resources on actual rehabilitation and house prisoners in a way that won't make prisoners simple "Crime Colleges"

Quantonomo Bay is essentially for all intents and purposes run and maintained as a "Terrorism College" in part to keep the War on Terror running as low level detainees are shipped in from the Middle East, Africa and Asia and housed temporarily with the creme de la creme of Al Queda that schools them and provides them contacts for once they are released usually within a 1 to 3 year period of being brought to Quantonomo.

Believe me when I say the Super Max in Colorado seemed to contain Timmothy McVeigh in 24 hour a day secure underground innescapable isolated imprisonment I think it could very easily do the same for any assortment of Middle East Terror suspects but then you loose the "School" nature of the facility.

The world sure is a fun and interesting place to visit. Aren't you glad we are all just passing through!



posted on Apr, 24 2009 @ 04:28 PM
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reply to post by rapinbatsisaltherage
 


I won't deny that there is some satisfaction at seeing Obama supporters losing faith in the "messiah". Maybe it's because when those of us tried to warn folks prior to and during the elections we were mocked, laughed at, called names, etc. It's not just because we disagree with his political positions, but myself, I no longer believe Obama gives a damn about the nation's economy let alone its well-being. I'll give you that at least you, in particular, weren't smug about your opinions or distatseful with your posts prior to and during the election. But right now I'm not laughing. Limiting the rights of true American citizens is no laughing matter - and this move to limit the rights of a defendant, it's a move I never dreamed the "messiah" would make after all his pomp and circumstance, but here we are discussing the very topic.

Say what you want about Obama not being worse than Bush/Cheney. We're not even 100 days into this man's administration yet and he's already losing supporters. By the next election, you may well be amending your statement as to who you think the worst president may be.

[edit on 24-4-2009 by sos37]

[edit on 24-4-2009 by sos37]



posted on Apr, 24 2009 @ 04:54 PM
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reply to post by sos37
 



Say what you want about Obama not being worse than Bush/Cheney. We're not even 100 days into this man's administration yet and he's already losing supporters. By the next election, you may well be amending your statement as to who you think the worst president may be.



I don't think Obama could top an abysmal 8 years in just 4, but we shall see. The good thing about my state of mind is that it changes, lol, I completely agree that I could alter my statement. We shall see.

Back on topic: I’ll be interested to see how people react to this if it happens. I first read about this story at the end of March and the media has barely mentioned it since so who knows if people will even be "informed" until it happens.



posted on Apr, 24 2009 @ 05:03 PM
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Originally posted by redhatty


I thought we would have change, didn't realize it would be for the worst.

So your constitutional right to an atty won't really mean anything if this gets through. And worse, have a corrupt Police Department and it can be said YOU said something that you didn't.

More police state, more freedoms vanishing, more rights taken away.

How ya like the change so far?

www.google.com
(visit the link for the full news article)


Sad as it may be, the people of this country don't even realize what is happening. Yesterday I read an article that said Obama's ratings are at 67% favorable.

Poor fools won't even realize what hit them.



posted on Apr, 24 2009 @ 05:03 PM
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This is just sad.. 3 months in office and no soldiers brought home , just more leaving , more money for war purposes and now this . I sincerly wouldn't have thought that he would try and take our rights away , not so soon anywayz. The real question is what will we do about it . I bet we are few who know of this..



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