US Torture (warning, graphic)

Originally posted by jaamaan
I am suggesting that some, if not many, flights where longer than 90 min.
It doesnt matter how you call your straw man planes.
It is fair to assume prisoners where transported in simular ways in all kinds of planes and transports.
And to "nick pick" some more if you will, do you seriously claim that you never heard of these "secret" cia prisoner flights?
Maybe i did not word my example clear enough to bring this point across.
Here is an example.

My whole point was that these pictures do not represent what this topic is all about. Those CIA missions were not done with military transport aircraft, but civilian style, that is how they do it, and on those flights I would assume they are handcuffed to a seat, but you can assume what you like.

The big reason that they are floor loaded in the picture, as you see, is because one day we might be flying humvees and troops and the next pallets of cargo with on another day this type of mission. These missions are around 16 hours and we might fly to 5 or 6 areas in one day picking up and dropping off at each stop. Because of all this there is only two places for them to sit, in either the red side seats or on the floor, and they are put on the floor because first many are captured in the desert and have not seen a bath in a very long time and carry many contagious diseases, also as I wrote before, they will out of defiance piss and crap themselves, and it is easier to clean up if they are sitting on the floor than a cloth side seat.

The main reason I say these are not and would never be the missions you talk about is the type of Air Craft they are on. As I said before the C-130 would not be used for long distance travel. It is a tactical short range aircraft, and is not a jet, but a turbo prop aircraft that flies much slower than your typical C- 5, C-17 or airliner Jet. It will cruse about 280 knots where a C-17 will cruse .78 mach, and some airliners will cruise .87 mach (500 plus MPH), so there is a big difference here in how far you would want to fly a C-130.

To use these pictures to represent torture or stress positions with a purpose to constantly induce pain is totally incorrect.

Go out and find pictures of the CIA that has them locked up in a stress position for long hours and I will agree with you 100%.

To suggest I putting forth a straw man fallacy is incorrect too. I’m not saying that since these are not stress positions or torture than all flights are not the same. Now that would be your Straw man, but if you or others want to use pictures to represent your views than get the right pictures…

It’s like as if I take a picture of a child crying because he can’t have a toy and label it proof that parents abuse their kids.

So looking at your 15 pictures 8 of them are from Abu Ghraib where soldiers were put in jail over this and ALL of us see them as wrong and despicable. 2 are transportations that I talked about, 2 are from Vietnam or some other older 40 years ago situation, 2 are from Getmo and I see them kneeling in one without hoods (are they doing payers? I don’t know) and sitting in sensory isolation cross legged in the other photo. I do agree that sensory isolation is a interrogation tool. The one with the bloody knee looks to be a patrol situation, and not a camp like situation, so I haven’t a clue to what it is about.

So I really do not see a smoking gun here that America is using institutionalized torture as a common practice as I think you are suggesting.

Mmm, i think this is just a mix of drama and personal attack that has not much to do with the discussion.

I don't understand the drama or what personal attacks that you speak of. I'm debating your post and I disagree with it as you present it that is all.

reply to post by jaamaan


This is interesting, do you have a better link for all of the clip links lead to nothing, so where is the documentary of this? I would like to see these containers out in the desert that the film crew filmed.


BTW would you agree that the Taliban induced torture on a daily bases to the general public for small religious infractions and that they enslaved the female population of the country?

Yeah, torture sucks.

Next time, just shoot them dead.

reply to post by crichton13


Nice read BTW.


Yes I fully understand your point, and I agree that the US has dipped below the line at times with Getmo most likely that latest instance. Torture can come in many forms with even isolation as a form of it, so I’m sure the hardest thing to decide is how far does one go to gain information.

Let’s look at two cases, one that you speak of is Japan. How do you view their struggle to gain vital information through torture on whether the US was able to use WMD on them to the Bataan death march where 75,000 troops were marched for a week without food and water with 20,000 dying from this and other tortures, or the tortures Japan did across China for zero tactical reasons?

The other one is Vietnam where on first capture they would use extreme torture to get the codes of the day and after that the torture was more neglect of food and health issues. With both of these cases you have a mix of institutionalized and isolated practices of torture. We also see torture done for a purpose of gaining vital information and torture done with no purpose other than evil intent.

So I see basically three levels of torture with one being common practice used daily on the general public as we see in Somalia, Darfur and with the Taliban when they were in control. Another one is institutionalized torture that was common practice in Iraq with Saddam. Last is the small group or individual level of torture.

With the levels we need to determine just what is considered torture. If I ground my child to the house for a week is that torture for it is very uncomfortable to him? My Vietnam POW friends were all first tortured for the codes of the day. The practice typically used was to tie their hands behind their backs and then hoist them up to the ceiling with a rope to dislocate their shoulders to be repeatedly dropped and hoisted until they talked, but if you asked them what was the greatest torture they endured they all would say the years of total isolation and neglect.

So just what are we talking about here, we can all agree with tortures that maim and kill, but after that it gets rather grey as to what is and is not torture unless every discomfort is a form of it. For me I would judge all actions based on the intensity level and duration. This would mean even a low intensity level action over a very long duration would be considered a form of torture, but in any case this subject is not as black and white as many might feel it is.



[edit on 26-4-2009 by Xtrozero]

Originally posted by Xtrozero
My whole point was that these pictures do not represent what this topic is all about. Those CIA missions were not done with military transport aircraft, but civilian style, that is how they do it, and on those flights I would assume they are handcuffed to a seat, but you can assume what you like.

I do see your point, i just dont agree with your conclusions.
My whole point is that these people are transported in cargo planes on the ground in a stress position.
We can just as easy assume that they could be transported in cargo planes with those cia flights.

Originally posted by Xtrozero
To use these pictures to represent torture or stress positions with a purpose to constantly induce pain is totally incorrect.

It should be clear than after all these posts that we dont agree on that point.
I just think they would have used chairs of something and make them sit in a position that is "normal" for people to sit in.

Originally posted by Xtrozero
To suggest I putting forth a straw man fallacy is incorrect too. I’m not saying that since these are not stress positions or torture than all flights are not the same. Now that would be your Straw man, but if you or others want to use pictures to represent your views than get the right pictures…

You are still talking about plane types and what more for pages and pages and did not realy adress the other pictures in the OP.
You keep on banging on the fact that they are not in the stress position, in the debated pictures, while it has been pretty clear that we will not agree on this point.
You started naming me some names in direct and more indirect ways.

Did you by the way realise that sensory deprivation can be used as torture?

·There is no way to articulate the horror of endless sensory deprivation. Picture living in a human cage about the size of a bathroom.You are there 24 hours a day, day in and day out, year in and year out. You may be allowed out once every other day for an hour and a half in a concrete yard. You may be allowed one 15 minute phone call a day and that call is monitored. In some of the units you get one call every three months. Your mail and reading material is censored. If for some reason you have to leave your cage, you are strip searched which often includes a pointedly humiliating anal probe. You are shackled around your waist and handcuffed. You are entirely under the control of prison guards who carry long, black clubs they refer to as "'n-word' beaters." Sensory deprivation and isolation are brainwashing techniques which are no accident. The world of control units and supermax prisons is a world in which isolation and segregation for long and indefinite periods of time has led to a psychological brutality of ugly proportion. The expanded use of these units has led Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International and the World Organization Against Torture/USA to cite the United States with their concerns. Their use of isolation units breaks United Nations Covenant Against Torture and the United Nations Covenant for the Treatment of Prisoners, both of which the United States has signed.

sonic.net...

Originally posted by Xtrozero
It’s like as if I take a picture of a child crying because he can’t have a toy and label it proof that parents abuse their kids.

So looking at your 15 pictures 8 of them are from Abu Ghraib where soldiers were put in jail over this and ALL of us see them as wrong and despicable. 2 are transportations that I talked about, 2 are from Vietnam or some other older 40 years ago situation, 2 are from Getmo and I see them kneeling in one without hoods (are they doing payers? I don’t know) and sitting in sensory isolation cross legged in the other photo. I do agree that sensory isolation is a interrogation tool. The one with the bloody knee looks to be a patrol situation, and not a camp like situation, so I haven’t a clue to what it is about.

These are mostly silly arguments, and i knew i should tkae you realy serious any more after you started some personal sneering.
But i try to answer some question i see in this.
Look at the name/title of this thread.
Did i say the torutre has to be from a certain time period ?
You maybe do not take this photographic torture evidence serious but i am glad most of the rest of the world does.
There are even soldiers that where convicted on the basis of some of these photos.

Originally posted by Xtrozero
So I really do not see a smoking gun here that America is using institutionalized torture as a common practice as I think you are suggesting.

Read the thread title, US Torture, that is the only thing i am suggesting, the way you state it comes from your head.

Mmm, i think this is just a mix of drama and personal attack that has not much to do with the discussion.

Originally posted by Xtrozero
I don't understand the drama or what personal attacks that you speak of. I'm debating your post and I disagree with it as you present it that is all.

I am sure you dont, here i will show you again.

Originally posted by Xtrozero
I bet if I agreed with you 100% you would have made me your personal expert on this subject, believing everything I write as God's honest truth. Well unfortunately it is God’s honest truth, but you like so many others only believe what will fit your views that might as well be written in stone.

So if you have any thing new to add to this discussion that we have not talked about, than i will be glad to answer, for the rest i consider the debate between us done.
Because i believe that i aswered most of your questions in a fair way and we both know where we stand.

O yes, the link to the “Afghan Massacre: The Convoy of Death.” works fine for me, i see a documentary when i click that link.
If you dont that look around on that page and you will find the name of the award winning film maker to.

“Afghan Massacre: The Convoy of Death.”

[edit on 26-4-2009 by jaamaan]

Originally posted by Xtrozero
With the levels we need to determine just what is considered torture. If I ground my child to the house for a week is that torture for it is very uncomfortable to him? My Vietnam POW friends were all first tortured for the codes of the day. The practice typically used was to tie their hands behind their backs and then hoist them up to the ceiling with a rope to dislocate their shoulders to be repeatedly dropped and hoisted until they talked, but if you asked them what was the greatest torture they endured they all would say the years of total isolation and neglect.

So just what are we talking about here, we can all agree with tortures that maim and kill, but after that it gets rather grey as to what is and is not torture unless every discomfort is a form of it. For me I would judge all actions based on the intensity level and duration. This would mean even a low intensity level action over a very long duration would be considered a form of torture, but in any case this subject is not as black and white as many might feel it is.

Some very interesting points raised i have to say, thanks for posting this.
Isolation, sensory deprivation and the control of food and water can be very scary tools, specialy for long periods of time.
They are also very hard to detect for the outside world compared to fysical assaults.
It is indeed a gray area, some of the technics are used in common jails and other intitutions.

But when most of these technics are used together for a long period of time, lets say maybe for years, some x hours per day, it becomes quite frightning to me.
And it is my personal opinion, based on what i seen and read, that this is the type of "torture" that is used on some people in guantanamo bay, if not on most of them.
There is a lot of photographic circumstantial evidence around that might support this assumption.

US military experts advising the CIA on rules for interrogating terror suspects repeatedly referred to extreme stress techniques as "torture", a leaked memo has revealed.

(snip)

The released memos revealed that the CIA allowed 10 forms of physical and psychological coercive torture, including waterboarding - a technique used since the Spanish Inquisition. It has been widely considered as torture and after ther Second World War the US military executed Japanese soldiers who were found to have used it on captives.

The technicalities of extracting information under duress were spelled out in careful detail. They included keeping detainees awake for up to 11 straight days, placing them in a dark confined boxes and playing on their phobias by putting insects into the box with them. Other techniques involved "walling" (slamming naked detainees into walls), dousing prisoners with freezing water and waking them up for prayers every half hour.

(snip)

Meanwhile, the controversy over the Obama White House's approach to the previous administration's tactics is certain to deepen after it agreed to release up to 2,000 photographs of alleged abuse at US-run prisons in Iraq and Afghanistan.

LINK

[edit on 26-4-2009 by jaamaan]

[edit on 26-4-2009 by jaamaan]

Here are some words of a man who has impressive credentials and experience with interrogation of criminals and terrorists.
Torture does not work well, it is counter productive.
It is an interesting article and it counters most arguments that are pro torture in this thread.

Torture? It probably killed more Americans than 9/11

"The reason why foreign fighters joined al-Qa'ida in Iraq was overwhelmingly because of abuses at Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib and not Islamic ideology," says Major Matthew Alexander, who personally conducted 300 interrogations of prisoners in Iraq. It was the team led by Major Alexander [a named assumed for security reasons] that obtained the information that led to the US military being able to locate Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the head of al-Qa'ida in Iraq. Zarqawi was then killed by bombs dropped by two US aircraft on the farm where he was hiding outside Baghdad on 7 June 2006. Major Alexander said that he learnt where Zarqawi was during a six-hour interrogation of a prisoner with whom he established relations of trust.

Major Alexander's attitude to torture by the US is a combination of moral outrage and professional contempt. "It plays into the hands of al-Qa'ida in Iraq because it shows us up as hypocrites when we talk about human rights," he says. An eloquent and highly intelligent man with experience as a criminal investigator within the US military, he says that torture is ineffective, as well as counter-productive. "People will only tell you the minimum to make the pain stop," he says. "They might tell you the location of a house used by insurgents but not that it is booby-trapped."

LINK

[edit on 26-4-2009 by jaamaan]

Do you think the people that burned alive in wtc felt tortured or how about the ones that jumped?Americans are so stupid and this is why we will and are losing the war.

Originally posted by jaamaan
I just think they would have used chairs of something and make them sit in a position that is "normal" for people to sit in.

You cut and paste my post quite well, but left out my indepth reason as to why they are floor loaded and not in seat read it again please...

Well ok back to your Post....US Torture.....

Yes, I agree with you....so now I'm not sure of your point other than the US is human too like the rest of the world.

reply to post by jaamaan

I personally feel no regard towards these enemy combatants. It has NEVER been ANY nation's method to give enemy combatants and prisoners of war a "trial".

Go ahead point your finger at the big bad US, but don't you dare hold your hand out when you need something.

It would be so easy to alleviate this your so called version of torture - take no prisoners. Period. These people, and their religion have declared war on my country, my religion and my way of life. They do not want to coexist with us, they do not want peace. They want to destroy us and they try at every turn.

I have no problem with eradicating all who pick up arms against my nation.



[edit on 26-4-2009 by slicobacon]

It all boils down to one simple fact. Human Beings are cowards. Fearful, petty, insignificant turds, embroiled so much in their self importance that they care not for anything of real importance. We should all be ashamed of even existing. I think it's a great thing that time is infinite, and we are a mere tick on the clock. When the next species comes along, maybe they'll get it right. We sure as hell haven't.

Originally posted by jaamaan
So you seriously try to say that what happened in the "Abu Ghraib" was less than a college frat prank?

Or do you think holding peole for over 5 years in prison without a trail and being supmitted to various foms of torture and sleep deprivation is less than some college pranks.

I am sorry but your post makes it very clear that you dont see, or dont want to see what is realy going on.

Seriously? Yes.
Although I must admit I overlooked one thing that's worse then college pranks, and these are the same pranks you now see at high schools.

Let's look at the definition of these two words.

torture - The act of inflicting excruciating pain, as punishment or revenge, as a means of getting a confession or information, or for sheer cruelty.

hazing - To initiate, as into a college fraternity, by exacting humiliating performances from or playing rough practical jokes upon.

Look at the picture you posted again and ask yourself which category they would fall under.

As for holding them for 5 years without a trial, I assume you are referring to GitMo.
Let me ask you one thing, since you seem to be such a terrorist sympathizer that is so concerened about their "freedom", would you like to go on record here on ATS as saying you would be happy to accept these "prisoners" into your home town and welcome them with open arms?

Please be honest.

Originally posted by Alxandro

Originally posted by jaamaan
So you seriously try to say that what happened in the "Abu Ghraib" was less than a college frat prank?

Or do you think holding peole for over 5 years in prison without a trail and being supmitted to various foms of torture and sleep deprivation is less than some college pranks.

I am sorry but your post makes it very clear that you dont see, or dont want to see what is realy going on.

Seriously? Yes.
Although I must admit I overlooked one thing that's worse then college pranks, and these are the same pranks you now see at high schools.

Let's look at the definition of these two words.

torture - The act of inflicting excruciating pain, as punishment or revenge, as a means of getting a confession or information, or for sheer cruelty.

hazing - To initiate, as into a college fraternity, by exacting humiliating performances from or playing rough practical jokes upon.

Look at the picture you posted again and ask yourself which category they would fall under.

As for holding them for 5 years without a trial, I assume you are referring to GitMo.
Let me ask you one thing, since you seem to be such a terrorist sympathizer that is so concerened about their "freedom", would you like to go on record here on ATS as saying you would be happy to accept these "prisoners" into your home town and welcome them with open arms?

Please be honest.

Hmm strange that i never seen any torture pictures of your mentioned college pranks.
Some how i just dont buy that it is as heavy on those pranks as it is in the pictures i posted.

And because some people mess up doesnt mean i have to come up with a solution for it.

Terrorist sympathizer?, no not realy, i just dont like it when innocent people are tortured.

Originally posted by Xtrozero

Originally posted by jaamaan
I just think they would have used chairs of something and make them sit in a position that is "normal" for people to sit in.

You cut and paste my post quite well, but left out my indepth reason as to why they are floor loaded and not in seat read it again please...

Well ok back to your Post....US Torture.....

Yes, I agree with you....so now I'm not sure of your point other than the US is human too like the rest of the world.

Well i can say the same about your cut and paste jobs.

I answered most of your questions in a fair way, looking at all the info you posted and i just do not come to the same conclusions as you.

I made it quite clear to that i respect the US and most people from the US, i just dont respect torture, from any one.
I am just very dissapointed that the US government thinks it can get rid of torture regimes by using torture themselves.
And i am not the only one, there are quite some experts that explain in very clear language that torture works counter productive.

Major Alexander says he faced the "ticking time bomb" every day in Iraq because "we held people who knew about future suicide bombings". Leaving aside the moral arguments, he says torture simply does not work. "It hardens their resolve. They shut up." He points out that the FBI uses normal methods of interrogation to build up trust even when they are investigating a kidnapping and time is of the essence. He would do the same, he says, "even if my mother was on a bus" with a hypothetical ticking bomb on board. It is quite untrue to imagine that torture is the fastest way of obtaining information, he says.

LINK

Originally posted by Divinorumus
If these creeps had murdered your son or daughter in cold blood, would you still weep for these sacks of scum? Torture not only can extract information, it serves as a deterrent to those that are thinking about committing cold blooded murder in the future. Let those pictures serve as a warning to others that think they have nothing to fear or loose when they murder the innocent in the name of whatever b.s. they believe and feel justifies their acts and actions.

More pictures to be release, eh? GOOD!

[edit on 24-4-2009 by Divinorumus]

You know what? There's a very good chance that the reason they killed an American is because an American did the exact same thing to someone they loved

I don't know what is more depressing, to be honest.

Your narrow-minded outlook and inability to condemn despicable acts against a POW (what are we now? Nazi-Germany???)

Or the fact that your post got so many stars.

My gut is leaning towards the latter of the two.



[edit on 27-4-2009 by Fremd]

Originally posted by slicobacon
reply to post by jaamaan

 

I personally feel no regard towards these enemy combatants. It has NEVER been ANY nation's method to give enemy combatants and prisoners of war a "trial".

The Nuremberg Trials? The International Military Tribunal for the Far East? You need to do more research on this. And the fact that you personally "feel no regard" for "enemy combatants" as you call them, is irrelevant. The US is bound by law to show such "regard", laws which it has broken.

It would be so easy to alleviate this your so called version of torture - take no prisoners. Period.

So they should be executed without trial? Did you know that the US executed Japanese soldiers who used waterboarding on US POWS, after WWII? Waterboarding was classed as torture and a war crime and the US killed those who used it on US soldiers. Now suddenly it's "not torture" when the US does it and people like you try to justify it. What rank hypocrisy!

These people, and their religion have declared war on my country, my religion and my way of life. They do not want to coexist with us, they do not want peace. They want to destroy us and they try at every turn. I have no problem with eradicating all who pick up arms against my nation.

And how do you know that all the people being tortured by the US are like those you describe above? Why are most of them eventually released without charge? Because they are not what you describe above, for the most part. It just makes it easier on your conscience to pretend that they must all be terrorists intent on the destruction of the US.

And as for your attitude to the "enemy combatants" - of whom you say: "these people, and their religion have declared war on my country, my religion and my way of life." - the US is in THEIR countries. We attacked THEM. We invaded. "These people" aren't all Al Qaeda! Your "logic" is so bitterly twisted. What would you do if Chinese troops were occupying the US, with no sign of leaving, while they built massive, permanent military bases, after having bombed your country to smithereens and after years of brutal sanctions which killed over a million Americans, mostly children? Do you think you might hate these invaders for the death and misery they brought to your country? Do you think you might even take up arms against them and end up being labeled an "enemy combatant" and taken away and tortured?

I shudder to think that I share the western world with people who think as you do, just as I shudder at the brutality of Islamic extremists. You are a mirror image of each other.

[edit on 27-4-2009 by Malcram]

reply to post by jaamaan


Let me Google that for you

Study sheds light on hazing in schools

SPRINGFIELD, Mass. (WWLP) - The dictionary defines hazing as an initiation process involving harassment.

According to a new study of more than 11,000 college students, it's a common practice.

University of Maine Researchers found that more than half of college students involved in clubs, teams and organizations experience hazing.

But the problem doesn't start in college.

The study shows 47-percent of college freshmen got hazed in high school.

Researchers say the most common hazing practices are alcohol consumption, humiliation, isolation, sleep-deprivation and sex acts.

Article here


Here's what's in the news

reply to post by Alxandro


Wow...you are really reaching out there on this one.

Hazing and what those detainee's went through in Gitmo are two different things.

1.) They were never tried, how do you know their not innocent?
2.) We dont treat our prisoners at home like that, ya know, like Charles Manson...people who are monsters.


A person is required to have a very deep seeded and 'foaming at the mouth' tendency for bigotry in order to classify torture in the way you just did.

You have my sympathy.

reply to post by Alxandro


So I suppose if I break into your house tonight and subject you and your family to weeks of "humiliation, isolation, sleep-deprivation and sex acts", maybe followed by a bit of waterboarding, beatings, use of attack dogs etc, all done by force, that you will be happy to dismiss this as a "hazing" prank and wouldn't dare to call it "torture"?

No?

There is a world of difference between the "hazing" as an initiation and what is described in this thread. It is an insult to intelligence and basic morality to claim otherwise.


[edit on 27-4-2009 by Malcram]