US Torture (warning, graphic)

Originally posted by jaamaan

I dont care how you call the various departments of the US army, the me it is just an army of US men.

Well then you are somewhat ignorant about just what a military actually is.

You just try to project your own skewed bias on me.
And i am debating you as far as i can see.
It just takes a lot of time to deal with the straw men you put up before i can reply to the more serious content of your posts.
We are on page 10 or more and we are still debating the stress position shown on the cargo plane pictures that you started around page 1.

I only stated my real life experiences and you suggest they are incorrect, that is basically the case here. I been inches from those in your so called stress positions, so I think I could tell if they were under stress or pain at the time. So you go ahead and continue to base all your views on a few pictures with zero knowledge or understanding of procedures and I’ll go on with my views based real life involvement.

These people are clearly in the stress position.
You are trying to say they only got transported for a time period of 45 minutes max while in these positions.
I dare say that it was much longer on many occasions, but i am quite sure you will debate me on that over an other 10 pages.
BTW i am not an expert on the stress position and i never claimed that, i am just not stupid and i know when i see one.

I used the generic 45 mins because that was about the average flight...some were a little less some were a little more, but we could fly anywhere in Iraq under 90 mins. Now how the few prisoners transported for 20 hours to Getmo were treated I have no knowledge or experience in.

Take it or leave it...I explained exactly the purpose of those missions you see in those picture were/are. If you feel the purpose was to torture prisoners and not just transporting suspects with unknown threat capabilities so be it.

But it must have given you some idea what it can do to a human being when they are put into it for several hours, or maybe weeks for several hours a day.

Yes I know what it can do, and it is not very much fun, but I just wish you would understand that stress positions and even sanctioned torture is designed and accomplished under very strict scenarios by extremely well trained individuals for a purpose and is not used haphazardly as you suggest, and in the isolated cases like Abu Ghraib it was haphazard with no purpose and not done with any authorization.

I have no real knowledge of actual sanctioned torture other than whether some interrogation techniques like water boarding is considered torture or not for I can see it both ways, but in any case even these were rarely done and only in cases where a large threat was considered.

Condemn America and don’t condemn the many countries that use torture as a general practice, even at the civilian police level, I don’t really care, but just the fact that every interrogation technique is hotly debated in America and cases found when troops might act out on their own are investigated as much as possible, and more importantly, viewed as a shameful even by the other troops shows a rather big difference between America and big part of the rest of the world.

Is America perfect? Hell no! But does America continually strive to work on her imperfections with a conscious that much of the rest of the world seriously lacks? Well hell yes!

As a added note....

When I did fly these missions many times I personally checked the straps to ensure they were not too tight. If I did see maltreatment in any way I would first stop it on the spot and then I would report it quickly, but I personally didn't see anything out of the norm and I flew maybe 50 plus of these. The vast majority of these people were released and the last thing I would want to happen is to create a new terrorist by our own treatment of them under our custody.



[edit on 25-4-2009 by Xtrozero]

reply to post by Jadette


If there is not God then there is no absolute right and wrong. Truth becomes arbitrary. For instance it may be better to torture and kill the enemy if overall there is less people being tortured and killed because you tortured and killed that one person.

In the context of this thread it is enough for me to define the american army as one whole, the various departments of it are not very relevant to me within this discussion.

I only stated my real life experiences and you suggest they are incorrect, that is basically the case here. I been inches from those in your so called stress positions, so I think I could tell if they were under stress or pain at the time.

The only thing i try to state here, for several pages, is that the people tied up in these planes are in a stress position.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/27d76ff4c5ed.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/2bee8da78185.jpg[/atsimg]

Originally posted by Xtrozero
First they are not put into a stress position. The plane is set up with plastic on the floor and cargo straps. This setup would also be used in an emergency evacuation of a lot of people.

You state that they are not, based on your experience.
I do want to believe you on your word but i can only for 50%, there is no way for me to check your credentials that you claim to have.
No offence but i have to be realistic.

I state my word from my personal experiences that i believe these men are in stress positions, specialy in the second foto here "2bee8da78185.jpg"

Originally posted by Xtrozero
I used the generic 45 mins because that was about the average flight...some were a little less some were a little more, but we could fly anywhere in Iraq under 90 mins. Now how the few prisoners transported for 20 hours to Getmo were treated I have no knowledge or experience in.

First it was 45 min , now it is 90 min.
You know it is not very unrealistic for me to "assume" that plenty of the flights, simular as presented here, where flown to the various "secret" cia torture prisons in several countries, with men strapped into a stress postion simular as in these pictures.
And yes maybe even to guantanamo bay.

It is not for nothing that i posted the information on how many afganisthan prisoners where left to die in the dessert in cargo containers.

With these things taken into account, the evidence that convicted people and the other circumstantial photographic evidence that is around, it is not very unrealistic of me to assume that the evidence that did came out is only the tip of some iceberg.

Originally posted by Xtrozero
Take it or leave it...I explained exactly the purpose of those missions you see in those picture were/are. If you feel the purpose was to torture prisoners and not just transporting suspects with unknown threat capabilities so be it.

I feel the purpose of this is to put these innocent people under constant preasure.

Originally posted by Xtrozero
Condemn America and don’t condemn the many countries that use torture as a general practice, even at the civilian police level, I don’t really care, but just the fact that every interrogation technique is hotly debated in America and cases found when troops might act out on their own are investigated as much as possible, and more importantly, viewed as a shameful even by the other troops shows a rather big difference between America and big part of the rest of the world.

Is America perfect? Hell no! But does America continually strive to work on her imperfections with a conscious that much of the rest of the world seriously lacks? Well hell yes!

Well i am sorry, i will not buy into the drama here.
Any one who does not condemn this torture evidence i considder to be respectless of human life, and it does not matter for me where they come from or what army they fight for.

There is plenty of information about what happens in other torture countries besides the USA.
It is just very sad to realise that this home of the free is now becomming just the same as these other torturing regimes if they continiu along this path.
And if i read some of the american public opinion on these matters they is looks like they will.


[edit on 25-4-2009 by jaamaan]

Originally posted by justsomeboreddude
reply to post by Jadette

 

If there is not God then there is no absolute right and wrong. Truth becomes arbitrary. For instance it may be better to torture and kill the enemy if overall there is less people being tortured and killed because you tortured and killed that one person.

There is quite some evidence that shows the opposite.

If you "torture and kill the enemy" than "overall" there are more people being tortured and killed.

"the enemy" is not one person.

[edit on 25-4-2009 by jaamaan]

Originally posted by jaamaan

The only thing i try to state here, for several pages, is that the people tied up in these planes are in a stress position.

I state my word from my personal experiences that i believe these men are in stress positions, specialy in the second foto here "2bee8da78185.jpg"

In the second picture they look to be falling asleep from the bordom of these flights. Most did....

First it was 45 min , now it is 90 min.
You know it is not very unrealistic for me to "assume" that plenty of the flights, simular as presented here, where flown to the various "secret" cia torture prisons in several countries, with men strapped into a stress postion simular as in these pictures.


And yes maybe even to guantanamo bay.

This maybe true...who knows, but not with the C-130s you see in pictures. Reread my post...I said most of these flights were about 45 mins and that we could fly anywhere in Iraq under 90 mins. I'm not saying they are now 90 mins instead of 45 mins...geez don't try and nick pick something not even there

Also you are now assuming a theory that maybe we did something with your CIA suggestions... I'm just explaining these two pictures.

I feel the purpose of this is to put these innocent people under constant preasure.

Well you are wrong, but that doesn't really matter does it?

As I said I explained in-depth what was happening in those two pictures and that was all. I was trying to give you and others a little insight that maybe you never knew, so there you go and take what you will from someone who actually was involved with this.

I bet if I agreed with you 100% you would have made me your personal expert on this subject, believing everything I write as God's honest truth. Well unfortunately it is God’s honest truth, but you like so many others only believe what will fit your views that might as well be written in stone.

I'm sorry my experiences do not fit in your view of the world...









[edit on 25-4-2009 by Xtrozero]

Originally posted by Xtrozero
This maybe true...who knows, but not with the C-130s you see in pictures. Reread my post...I said most of these flights were about 45 mins and that we could fly anywhere in Iraq under 90 mins. I'm not saying they are now 90 mins instead of 45 mins...geez don't try and nick pick something not even there

Also you are now assuming a theory that maybe we did something with your CIA suggestions... I'm just explaining these two pictures.

I am suggesting that some, if not many, flights where longer than 90 min.
It doesnt matter how you call your straw man planes.
It is fair to assume prisoners where transported in simular ways in all kinds of planes and transports.
And to "nick pick" some more if you will, do you seriously claim that you never heard of these "secret" cia prisoner flights?
Maybe i did not word my example clear enough to bring this point across.
Here is an example.

The report detailed the involvement of many European countries in what it called the CIA's "illegal" program.

It listed the number of CIA flights, or stopovers, it found in a number of countries.

Italy: 46 stopovers.

United Kingdom: 170 stopovers.

Germany: 336 stopovers.

Spain: 68 stopovers.

Portugal: 91 stopovers.

Ireland: 147 stopovers.

Greece: 64 stopovers

Cyprus: 57 stopovers.

Romania: 21 stopovers.

Poland: 11 stopovers.

Read the Full European Parliament Draft Report

blogs.abcnews.com...

Originally posted by Xtrozero
I bet if I agreed with you 100% you would have made me your personal expert on this subject, believing everything I write as God's honest truth. Well unfortunately it is God’s honest truth, but you like so many others only believe what will fit your views that might as well be written in stone.

I'm sorry my experiences do not fit in your view of the world...

Mmm, i think this is just a mix of drama and personal attack that has not much to do with the discussion.

Originally posted by ofhumandescent
reply to post by jaamaan

 

Very good post.

Maybe you might educate some folks out there.

I've said it before, there are lines you don't want to cross.

The line between being a humane being and a savage is a thin line and once you cross that line, there is no going back.

Torture for any reason on any living being is wrong.

Love is always creative, fear always destructive.-- Emmet Fox.

[edit on 24-4-2009 by ofhumandescent]

Thank you for this post.
It makes me believe there are still people out there who care for the fine borders of morality.

I am glad there are still some ofhumandescent around

Originally posted by yottayotta
I feel an immense amount of sympathy and regret for all of those wrongly accused, incarcerated, tortured or in any other way harmed in the name of keeping this country safe, whether that be from theats abroad or local. I only pray that we vote people into office that are skilled in knowing who is innocent. However for those that are guilty; if my spouse, child, sister, brother or relative were a victim of the unspeakable crimes committed in the war zones abroad, I think they were too easy on them.

Just my three cents.

You see, there are many accounts of "those wrongly accused, incarcerated, tortured or in any other way harmed in the name of keeping this country safe".
Is that not the whole point of the american law, every one deserves a fair trail before any one can be found guilty.
Or something among those lines.
This is ment to protect your "spouse, child, sister, brother or relative" to you know.

Originally posted by Malcram
Bent Sørensen, Senior Medical Consultant to the International Rehabilitation Council for Torture Victims and former member of the United Nations Committee Against Torture has said:


"It's a clear-cut case: Waterboarding can without any reservation be labeled as torture. It fulfils all of the four central criteria that according to the United Nations Convention Against Torture (UNCAT) defines an act of torture. First, when water is forced into your lungs in this fashion, in addition to the pain you are likely to experience an immediate and extreme fear of death. You may even suffer a heart attack from the stress or damage to the lungs and brain from inhalation of water and oxygen deprivation. In other words there is no doubt that waterboarding causes severe physical and/or mental suffering – one central element in the UNCAT's definition of torture. In addition the CIA's waterboarding clearly fulfills the three additional definition criteria stated in the Convention for a deed to be labeled torture, since it is 1) done intentionally, 2) for a specific purpose and 3) by a representative of a state – in this case the US."

There has been so many posts claiming that water boarding is not torture and i think this whole post is still standing firmly in reply to them.

Thanks for posting this.

[edit on 25-4-2009 by jaamaan]

Here is more background on the inhumane treatment of prisoners during transport.
Have a look at this documentary online with the provided link.

“Afghan Massacre: The Convoy of Death.”

The film provides eyewitness testimony that U.S. troops were complicit in the massacre of thousands of Taliban prisoners during the Afghan War.

It tells the story of thousands of prisoners who surrendered to the US military’s Afghan allies after the siege of Kunduz. According to eyewitnesses, some three thousand of the prisoners were forced into sealed containers and loaded onto trucks for transport to Sheberghan prison. Eyewitnesses say when the prisoners began shouting for air, U.S.-allied Afghan soldiers fired directly into the truck, killing many of them. The rest suffered through an appalling road trip lasting up to four days, so thirsty they clawed at the skin of their fellow prisoners as they licked perspiration and even drank blood from open wounds.

Witnesses say that when the trucks arrived and soldiers opened the containers, most of the people inside were dead. They also say US Special Forces re-directed the containers carrying the living and dead into the desert and stood by as survivors were shot and buried. Now, up to three thousand bodies lie buried in a mass grave.
www.informationclearinghouse.info...

After reading thru this thread, with it's various points of view, I was struck by, what seemed a simple question.

In coming to that question, I was both made happy and sad by the breadth of views exhibited.

Usually, I would try to MOCK the views of the CLEARLY Republican views (believe me Guys and Gals, you stick out like a SORE THUMB! HAHAHAHA!!!) But, after reading the various posts, I came to understand that these, right wing, bordering on Nazi fascist views (and before you start to moan - I suggest you REALLY check out what being a National Socialist entails ok - cos MOST of you Republican's seem to exhibit ALL of the associated traits - not a criticism - just an observation...) but I had to admit, to myself that you had a point.

I am a Brit, I am a socialist and from a US perspective, that probably makes me as close to Stalin as you can fathom but I will allow you this delusion because you really do not know any better given your backgrounds and previous Governments....

How do we separate ourselves from these crazy, fanatical islamists BUT do not allow ourselves to become as BAD as they are?

We in the Uk understand what Terrorism is.

Before you start whining about 9/11 etc. please DO NOT FORGET that we experienced 100's of years of terrorism from the IRA (mostly funded by deluded Americans who were desperate to cling onto their lack of identity by funding this terrorist organisation in a vain effort to be part of 'somthing')

If you care to look into pure numbers, you will see that numbers of deaths dictate that the USA has gottenof LIGHTLTY - this is a point of historical FACT and not any anti-US crap ok so don't even BEGIN to try to say "Our loss is greater"

But here's my point after all the above rubbish, and I apologise for walking around the Houses to get to the nub of it all!

Surely...SURELy... IF ONE descends to the level of the terrorists then one is simply NO BETTER than them?

As much as I try to look at it in ANY other way, I simplay cannot.

Yes, these B*stards chop of heads, snipe at and kill Coalition Troops (and you and I BOTH know that both UK and US Forces have lost their fair share of troops) but if we start to act like these animals then are we not as them?

PLEASE, look at the logic, or at least TRY to look at the logic of this argument.

Now, I know that my Govt illegally allowed US flights to stop off in Scotland for refuelling whilst transferrring POW's to Guantanamo.

I'm not happy about that and I suspect that this will come out in the fullness of time, Blair was Bush's bitch - we all know that so lets not beat abou the bush on this (!) however, the USA made a BIG thing after WW2 that Allied forces were tortured by Japanese Forces in EXACTLY the same manner.

This is a FACT - no BS - a FACT, American POW's were tortured using EVERY exact same TORTURE method that is/was being used against detainees in Gitmo Bay as they did in Japan prior to the WMD bombing to try to find out IF the USA were going to USE WMD's against mainland Japan!

PLEASE, PEOPLE IN THE USA, at LEAST have the GUTS to confront your past before you pass judgement on the present ok?

Originally posted by jaamaan

* Urinating on detainees
* Jumping on detainee's leg (a limb already wounded by gunfire) with such force that it could not thereafter heal properly
* Continuing by pounding detainee's wounded leg with collapsible metal baton
* Pouring phosphoric acid on detainees
* Sodomization of detainees with a baton
* Tying ropes to the detainees' legs or penises and dragging them across the floor.

Sergeant Samuel Provance from Alpha Company 302nd Military Intelligence Battalion, in interviews with several news agencies, reported the sexual abuse of a 16-year-old girl by two interrogators

(snip)

The torture? A more serious blow to the United States than September 11, 2001 attacks. Except that the blow was not inflicted by terrorists but by Americans against themselves. — Archbishop Giovanni Lajolo, foreign minister of the Vatican.

en.wikipedia.org...

I talked to Samuel Provance once in email. He mistook me for someone else on Reunion.com. But he said he caught a lot of flack from his peers and the military for coming out with that information.
It was a difficult thing for him, but I'm glad he came out with it.

Originally posted by justsomeboreddude
reply to post by Jadette

 

If there is not God then there is no absolute right and wrong. Truth becomes arbitrary. For instance it may be better to torture and kill the enemy if overall there is less people being tortured and killed because you tortured and killed that one person.

I don't believe that for a second. I think the argument that morality only gains validity through religious context isn't, well, valid. Good behavior dependant upon punishment seems wrong to me somehow.

Originally posted by saabster5
What I find sad, is that we (the U.S.) is part of the Geneva Convention Rules for War or whatever you call it. When I served I thought that document was what made me feel a little safer if I was taken as a POW. Now I guess they have circumvented all of that, by saying these people are not prisoners of war or what have you. But that document said the only things I had to answer were Name/Rank/Serial Number. It just sickens me that our military takes these people to some remote island, where U.S. law doesn't apply and use these nasty devices in name of saving and protecting our soils. When you have military officers saying that these practices are inhumane and should be stopped, one would think that something is not right about it. How often do you hear of ANY country stealing our citizens (on our soil), transporting them to some unnamed place, and "interrogating" them for years? Just because we have the powers to do so, does that make it right???

The CIA has done this since it's creation. It's part of what it's job is, to capture and question persons of interest. Alot of their stuff is done right in the field, they don't really have time to store the guy somewhere for a couple weeks until he tells them what they need to know. And I can assure you that if you were captured by the Iraqi's, they wouldn't hesitate to do the same to you. The only countries that will honor those treaties and conventions are the countries who signed them. These guys aren't even a real military, so the rules don't apply to them. I don't know why people keep talking about their "rights" either. They're not citizens, they don't have rights. You said you were in the military, so what if you learned that this guy you just captured knew information about a bombing planned near your base. Would you just ask him when it was going to happen and expect him to tell you in time?

Originally posted by Divinorumus

Originally posted by MakeSoap
Damnit Man! Not using torture is what separates the "good guys" from the "Bad guys."

Who's presuming we're the good guys?

I never claimed we are or ever were. We're the only nation to drop a nuke on innocent people. I completely acknowledge our government is evil and wicked too. We're just as bad, maybe worse. We're the nation that sticks our noses where it doesn't belong, creating hostility in the middle east, which brings these terror attacks on upon ourselves in the first place. So long as we're gonna be like that, we may as well be the best evil we can be.

[edit on 24-4-2009 by Divinorumus]

I never claimed we were the good guys either, because we're not (I said we SHOULD be). I'm saying that if we are to be the good guys than we CANNOT TORTURE EVER. And I'd rather not be the best evil we can be. I'd love for people to think fondly of the US. I love this country but I HATE what it's doing and the people who are doing it. We have SUCH POTENTIAL and I hate seeing it all squandered!

In WW2 you Americans were reknown for your just treatment of prisoners. That was an America to be proud of.

You've lost your way. This torture stuff is sickening.

Originally posted by Neo_Serf
In WW2 you Americans were reknown for your just treatment of prisoners. That was an America to be proud of.

You've lost your way. This torture stuff is sickening.

EXACTLY what I'm saying!

Originally posted by Divinorumus
If these creeps had murdered your son or daughter in cold blood, would you still weep for these sacks of scum? Torture not only can extract information, it serves as a deterrent to those that are thinking about committing cold blooded murder in the future. Let those pictures serve as a warning to others that think they have nothing to fear or loose when they murder the innocent in the name of whatever b.s. they believe and feel justifies their acts and actions.

More pictures to be release, eh? GOOD!

[edit on 24-4-2009 by Divinorumus]

What creeps? The big bad terrorists? Yea they have really killed alot of Americans. I mean they nearly killed as many people on 9/11 as die each year from having a rock fall on their head out of the blue. You better buy your kids helmets because its all so scary and dangerous out there. Idiot.

What creeps? The big bad terrorists? Yea they have really killed alot of Americans. I mean they nearly killed as many people on 9/11 as die each year from having a rock fall on their head out of the blue. You better buy your kids helmets because its all so scary and dangerous out there. Idiot.

Indeed. More US citizens die from lightening strikes, or peanut allergies, or wild deer related accidents each year than are killed by terrorism. America has been sold a lie to justify an unending war or on an abstract concept: Terror. This gives the US administration supposed license to strut around the world, attacking, invading and occupying other peoples countries, killing and kidnapping and torturing their citizens. This is "sowing the wind", and for this the US will "reap the whirlwind". This is not making you "safe". It is guaranteeing bitter hatred for America for generations to come.

The hypocrisy is that these liars who sold this nonsense to you and act in your name are the worst killers and terrorists in the world.

[edit on 26-4-2009 by Malcram]

Originally posted by munkey66
The logic.
This will serve as a warning to prevent terrorism happening agin.

Has capitol punishment stopped people murdering others in the US?
Has the prospect of going to jail prevented any crime?
does a fine prevent people from speeding?

Good point.

In my opinion things like this will ONLY create more hatred. When you create fear and pain, it spreads, it grows.

This will only create more terrorists.


[edit on 26-4-2009 by _Phoenix_]