American Gun Rights - A cultural issue more than a defensive issue!?

reply to post by LiquidLight


But would you concede that shootings in America seem un-proportional to other western countries?Swiss people are armed to the teeth yet don't seem to have as many loose units.

Originally posted by Azador
reply to post by LiquidLight

 

But would you concede that shootings in America seem un-proportional to other western countries?Swiss people are armed to the teeth yet don't seem to have as many loose units.

As I mentioned before: the US is BIG. Some 400 million last time I checked, if you count illegals. You can't just look at raw numbers, you have to look at proportional numbers. All of Switzterland could fit into any one of a few hundred counties in a number of states. Good lord, we have cities with bigger populations! So what is the proportional number? Proportionally, the number for murders by firearms would be around 3264 deaths, while total murder rate would be around 11,353 murders.

www.nationmaster.com...
www.nationmaster.com...
www.nationmaster.com...


Mexico has extremely tough gun laws, yet has vastly more gun violence than the US. Its proportional firearms death number would be 10,163, higher than the US! Overall, the murder number would be 51,261 or so.


Just looking at gun deaths doesn't really tell you how violent a culture is. You need to look at all sorts of indicators. Most of our politicians don't resort to physical violence when they disagree, as I've seen happen in other countries. We don't see much in the way of hooliganism of any sort, be it sports or musical tastes. We don't burn stuff in the streets as often as we see Europeans doing. We DO try hard to resolve most of our disputes through discussion and negotiation.

Personally, I think violence follows tax and drug policies. Where you have stringent taxes and/or stringent anti-drug laws (as opposed to regulating them), you have opportunities to make huge profits on something or other. Where you have huge profits, you have high death rates. They aren't the only cause, but they will definitely produce a noticeable bulge. Imagine what would happen if tomorrow, tobacco was treated like marijuana? I daresay the murder rate in nicotine-addicted countries would spike after a week or two.

rights' have to be earned don't they?
not when they were given to us by the founding fathers.

Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom of Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretence, raised in the United States.
Noah Webster, An Examination into the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution, 1787

as far as our military they are made up of the people so why would they stop the people if they were in the right?Just because you wish to bow down before those who would be your lords and masters doesn't mean everyone will.

I am sure if you look at statistics of death in general in the US you will find death by a citizen being murdered by a police officer is far larger a number than a citizen on citizen murders by gun.

You are about a thousand times more likely to die in a car accident than be murdered by a gun. In fact vehicular homicide is likely a far greater number than by a firearm.

The Swiss do not have near the mix of races nor as great of an economic disparity as the US. They do not even have the hot summers we have in the US which is the season with the largest murders rate in the US.

The Swiss likely do not have the history of racial tension as the US. It is like comparing apples to oranges.

reply to post by Azador

I live in Florida where many, many folks carry weapons. Every few years, within a hundred miles of me, we may have four to six shootings.

Each time, it's the police shooting a suspect, or more precisely, a drug deal gone wrong in certain, select, very small, neighborhoods with a very unique cultural characteristic.

The bulk, the vast bulk of shootings in the US occurs in the large cities, in the poor neighborhoods, usually both the victim and the shooter have extensive drug-related histories. In Miami, you have the bulk of the shootings around the Liberty City area, and the other few neighborhoods with almost identical cultural similarities.

One gentleman from the ME came here to visit recently, and was stunned by the lack of gunfire. He said so. He was so worried about getting mugged, robbed, or shot.

We didn't know what in hell he was talking about.

Apparently overseas, our drug neighborhoods, which are small and few, are the vast source of these shootings that get reported and are sensationalized.

There are places in big cities that it's just best to stay away from, especially if you don't look like the rest of the neighborhood.

I've had to shuck only twice, and that was to encourage a thug to let an elderly person go about their business, and when a guy jerked my car door open and began to get in for only God knows what.

Each day there are citizens who actually shoot burglars, and folks who break into their houses.

95% of the country area wise is relatively peaceful and trouble free. The remaining 5% or so makes up probably 95% of the shootings. In their own neighborhoods.

When many were forced to leave New Orleans and took up in Houston, Texas, the murder rate in Houston likewise jumped up drastically. Birds of a feather, and all that.


[edit on 24-4-2009 by dooper]

reply to post by Azador


It is interesting that you mention New Zealand having a fairly sizable portion of the population in ownership of firearms yet the deaths per capita are far lower than the US. I suspect this comes from several factors, one of which is a fundamental difference on societies, few countries on the planet are very similar when you start picking apart what makes there people as a whole function.

Then you have to look at media and the overall population of the country; when you have a huge base of people to market the news to you will find that news agencies will go to almost any length to make their money. The stories you will almost never here in the US are the ones where a firearm was used in the prevention of a crime; stories like that never get pages turned like a tale of blood and suffering - thats why the movie industry manages to churn out horrible action flicks by the truck load.

I must say that so far this thread has managed to hold on to sanity better than any of the other hot-air-fests that have come before it, hopefully it can stay this way as I think analyzing the underlying facts of why societies differ so drastically on this topic is a worthwhile endeavor.

Trust me i am seriously listening.I just find it hard for myself to get my head around the whole gun ownership obsession thing.I seriously doubt that the collective people of America will ever now come together and overthrow a government.You would end up just fighting each other.So i think that arguement is moot.I also seriously doubt a country is going to be able to invade you with all your military might.So i think that arguement is moot.
Now for personal self defence i can understand more.Ill give you an example that happened to me a few weeks ago:-


Around 2am i hear a someone crashing on my door.I thought it may have been my sis who lives down the road in trouble.It wasn't i stupidly opened the door without looking first and was imediatley greeted by a huge P'd out(think you guys call it crack?)gangster.Guy was huge, tweaking and bleeding from the chin.He starts swearing at me and demands to see someone i had never even heard of, i was blocking the door and he was right in my face swearing and threatening.To be honest i was more than a little worried i had family staying at the time and was worried if i couldn't stop this guy(don't think i could of)What would happen?Any way after a couple minutes of him threatening and swearing i told him the person he was after i had never heard of and to F OFF and closed the door.He yelled at the door he would bash me if i was lieing .I watched out the window as he walked down the road and started harassing some other guy walking around.

Now if i had a gun with me would i have used it?Would i now be in jail for murder?Would i and some of my family be six feet under because he over powered me and shot us?Or would he have just ran away when i pulled out a gun?Could go any of those ways.Luckily for me and mine i didnt need a gun just a little patience and a firm tone.

reply to post by Azador


Azador, I don't foresee Americans marching to Washington brandishing firearms, overthrowing the government. What I can see, is the States drawing the line at some point, compelling the Federal Government to rescind many of the unconstitutional laws they have "slipped' in.

There is always the possibility of a major catastrophic event, by which the government fails or is unable to operate. Under this circumstance, once again, no march on Washington.

Neighborhoods will be able to provide their own security, combining to enable municipalities to regain control, then counties, the States, and eventually, we'll end up re-instituting the Constitution, and reforming a government FROM SCRATCH. The next time around with the States prohibiting the Fed from infringing on States' rights.

That self-defense thing is really important.

Think of all the threads here on ATS that go into depth on all the various disasters and major catastrophic events that could affect a region, a nation, or even the world.

Things could go to **** in hours. The strong and ruthless will initially cause a lot of suffering to the old, the young, the helpless, and the unarmed.

It is only the armed citizens that can not only defend themselves, but help congregate and defend their neighborhood, and then neighborhood by neighborhood, a country can be restored.

But it all starts with the individual.

reply to post by Thebudweiserstuntman
Ya should maybe check out Switzerland,they're a gun society ,and seem to be getting along fine last time I read up.

It's not a cult thing,or an insecurity thing,personal self defense is a good last resort,and should not be infringed upon.

People who argue against one's having the means to defend themselves gotta be smokin crack,IMHO.

America is pretty screwed up as far as firearms go,a good portion of these people can't wipe their own arse,let alone know when they should pull a trigger,or not .

My life is not at all important,I would lay it down to avoid wrongfully killing another person.

Too bad so many others don't give it nearly as much thought as I.

We all have to die anyway,yes?.

Why be selfish.

And yes,by the way,I have killed.

It never leaves you.....

Murder is what happens to unarmed people,BTW.

[edit on 25-4-2009 by chiponbothshoulders]

[edit on 25-4-2009 by chiponbothshoulders]

Originally posted by cbianchi513
reply to post by thisguyrighthere

 

Don't forget good old American innovation...

www.prexis.com...

Oops... cheap, DIY automatic submachine guns?

This post won't last... get it while it's hot!


EDIT: on reflection... you'd have to be a pretty good machinist, but you could easily mass produce blowbacks if you were set up for it.

In other words, why buy one when the plans to MAKE them are out there on the web?

[edit on 23/4/09 by cbianchi513]

Thanks for the link i have been looking for those drawing for a while to add to my after guns are banned files.

A lot of good banning guns would be if everyone had plans to build there own guns

Originally posted by Helig
reply to post by Azador

 

It is interesting that you mention New Zealand having a fairly sizable portion of the population in ownership of firearms yet the deaths per capita are far lower than the US.

The big difference in the US and New Zealand and one of the principle problems with guns in the US is illegal immigration.

And some of the countries that much of this illegal immigration comes from are central american countries where scores are settled by vendetta.

A good 60% of the killing with guns in the US can be directly linked to these illegals and there children and to gangs made up of the children of these illegals.

People in New Zealand are lucky they don't have a large illegal immigration problem of illegal with this propensity for violence.

The problem we have now is a lot of these illegals are going home and taking the guns they got illegally back with them and now there home country is blaming us for there problem when they helped these people cross into the US in the first place.

And yes the Mexican government actively supports the illegals in crossing into the US.
www.alipac.us...
www.worldnetdaily.com...

I have said more than I have to on this one, but check the link below for another example.

news.bbc.co.uk...

Again, nay, again, and again and again.......

I rest my case.

Originally posted by Azador
reply to post by Binder

 

I think its a valid question.No one I know of outside of America understands their deadly fascination with guns and wishing to carry them at all times.And yes times have changed from 220 odd years ago.

I don't have a 'deadly facination'..

I will sum it up like this for the OP.. (this only applies to my gun ownership when living in the US, as I currently live in Mexico)

I have the right to own a weapon, and I will continue to have that right to self defense and or recreational use until I infringe upon someone's right while in the process of exercising mine. I am not willing to give up any of my rights, as that makes it easy for them to be taken away.

Have I ever had to discharge my weapon in self defense? No. I think most gun owners would prefer to keep it that way, and to think anything different is simply falling in line with what the anti-gun people would want you to believe about us.. stupid and savage. I can speak for myself that I am neither.

Do the Bill of Rights still apply today, the same way they did in the past? Of course they do.. and they always will. To not understand that is to not understand what a right is.

I have no problem with people that are against gun ownership and choose not to own one. I find no fault in that. I would gladly go to a neighbors defense if it were needed and they did not object.. even if they were one of those 'liberal nut-jobs'

Now, the meaning of the 2nd amendment.. what was it for? To protect ALL of the other rights. Does that still apply? To me it does. To make the comment that we can't defeat the American Government is not the point.. the point is we were given the right to defend against a tyrannical government, not the right to defeat it. If the time ever comes to defend my property or my family with a weapon, from government or otherwise, I have the right to make a decision to exercise my right. Would I be wrong? According to the bill of rights.. I wouldn't be.. again, is that the point? No.

Rights are rights, and no man nor group of men shall take those from me. Could I die in the process of protecting my rights? Sure I could. That is my choice, not the government or any group of men.

news.bbc.co.uk...

Here we go again.

Remove them from the equation and you remove the innocent death.