Torture? I went through worse in basic training, page 9

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reply posted on 23-4-2009 @ 02:15 PM by drwizardphd

Originally posted by cautiouslypessimistic

If you dont understand constitutional law, please dont pretend that YOU do.

It is BLATANTLY OBVIOUS that none of you has read or understands the constitution.[SNIP]

[SNIP]

Torture is also illegal under U.S. Law.

The use of torture also violates U.S. law. In 1994, Congress passed a new federal law which specifically provides for penalties including fines and up to 20 years' imprisonment for acts of torture committed by American or other officials outside the United States. In cases where torture results in death of the victim, the sentence is life imprisonment or execution.2

Source

Check and mate.

Mod Edit: Removed Insult

[edit on 24-4-2009 by Gemwolf]

reply posted on 23-4-2009 @ 02:17 PM by Byrd

You may not have read what waterboarding is all about.

Originally posted by platosallegory
Sticking someones head under water for 20-40 seconds is not torture.

That's not waterboarding.

Waterboarding is tying you to a board, face up. The board is then tilted so your feet are higher than your head. A bag is put over your face. At irregular intervals, gallons of water are poured into your breathing passages. The position alone causes high blood pressure and other problems if you're left there for awhile, and some of the prisoners were left there for a very long time.

This triggers your gag reflex (only you can't move). The side effects include pneumonia, loss of lung tissue, brain damage, broken bones (from trying to get away) and more: en.wikipedia.org...

This wasn't done once, it was done (in at least one case) more than 50 times a day (which would be on the average every 10 minutes or so for a full day.)

reply posted on 23-4-2009 @ 02:17 PM by eNumbra

Originally posted by poedxsoldiervet
Big guy huh. I tell you what partner my 9 nine year old girl is more of a man then you will ever be. -) Some pacifist you are.

If the gun isn't being fired at a person I don't see it as violence.

Besides, I already stated earlier that war cannot be eliminated entirely; pacifism when adopted by all leads to true "live and let live" freedom. Pacifism will never be adopted by all however, and I stand ready for the moment my life, my liberty, is threatened. That has yet to happen, at least not in the capacity necessary for war.

[edit on 4/23/2009 by eNumbra]

reply posted on 23-4-2009 @ 02:18 PM by poedxsoldiervet

reply to post by cautiouslypessimistic

Again I am not trying to make it personal for you. From what I understood from your post, I thought you had a better way.

And yes under certain circumstances I do agree with previous methods such as waterboarding, loud music, sleep deprvivation, cold rooms.

reply posted on 23-4-2009 @ 02:21 PM by poedxsoldiervet

Originally posted by eNumbra

Originally posted by poedxsoldiervet
Big guy huh. I tell you what partner my 9 nine year old girl is more of a man then you will ever be. -) Some pacifist you are.

If the gun isn't being fired at a person I don't see it as violence.

Besides, I already stated earlier that war cannot be eliminated entirely; pacifism when adopted by all leads to true "live and let live" freedom. Pacifism will never be adopted by all however, and I stand ready for the moment my life, my liberty, is threatened. That has yet to happen, at least not in the capacity necessary for war.

[edit on 4/23/2009 by eNumbra]

As I stated earlier I hope that day comes but unfortunatly it is not today, so untill the mean time we should be ready to deploy, engage, and destroy all enemies of this nation.

reply posted on 23-4-2009 @ 02:22 PM by dooper

reply to post by drwizardphd

I see what this is. We have a group of bystanders who can't and won't get their hands dirty, but have their uninformed opinions that they wish to have followed.

In the first place, waterboarding is not torture. It's a form of psychological displacement, in that's it's not a pleasant experience, but not torture.

To be a legitimate combatant, protected under the Geneva Conventions, they must meet the following criteria:

A) "That of being commanded by a person of responsibility for this subordinates."

(This assumes a military organization, which a chain of command, typical of the military. And the rank and insignia to prove it.)

B) "That of having a fixed, distinctive sign, recognizable at a distance."

(This is why conventional armies wear distinctive uniforms and insignia.)

C) "That of carrying arms openly.:

(No "civilians" hiding weapons underneath their clothing._

D) That of conducting operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war."

We find that non-uniformed combatants follow none of the required conditions for protection under the Geneva Conventions, and if you don't practice, you don't benefit.

The Geneva Conventions can be understood as a contract between two nations. If one side breaks the rules, then the contract is broken.

This criticism of waterboarding, misapplication of international laws, misunderstanding of the difference between civilians and non-uniformed prisoners is beyond logic, and thus beyond belief.

Strong opinions do not make for right.

But what the heck. Let's revise all rules and let these guys do what they will. And maybe it will be your city, your family, and your friends that will suffer in the next series of attacks.

And if anyone thinks this terrorism is over - well - you'd be making another mistake.

For me personally, if I had to resort to barbaric methods for the sole purpose of preventing the deaths of my companions, my country, or it's innocent citizens, then if someone doesn't like it, I'll ask you to turn your head.

But stay out of the way. Since you won't do anything to stop the slaughter, someone has to.

[edit on 23-4-2009 by dooper]

reply posted on 23-4-2009 @ 02:22 PM by mahtoosacks

lefties stop making the righters mad. its not nice. listening to whining is almost torture to me...

i said read what i wrote again, then you called me a hypocrite because i didnt use proper grammar when i said that maybe you should read it again. so yeah, you started it...

can we stay on topic and drop the mud slinging? everyone is getting upset.

i want to say that i support our troops! you guys rock! you do stuff that most of the people here cant.

like i said earlier, i understand why people do it, just dont think its right cus its illegal. just like getting out-shot by a little girl should be illegal

if the left wants respect from the right, then they need to stop being such weenies. if the right wants respect from the left, STOP TORTURING. pretty simple.

i know im going to get mad grief from this... CANT WE ALL JUST GET ALONG??

reply posted on 23-4-2009 @ 02:24 PM by poedxsoldiervet

reply to post by drwizardphd

Not this type of "Torture" (which isnt really torture) Goverment Lawyers and congresional leader from both sides of the aisle said these methods were okay and had no problem with it. Now all of a sudden it has become a big issue. I am sorry I am not buying this crap that people are selling. its been going on since 2002 and recently it has become an issue. Does anyone else see a problem with this?

Mod Edit: Removed Big quote

[edit on 24-4-2009 by Gemwolf]

reply posted on 23-4-2009 @ 02:27 PM by poedxsoldiervet

Originally posted by mahtoosacks
lefties stop making the righters mad. its not nice. listening to whining is almost torture to me...

i said read what i wrote again, then you called me a hypocrite because i didnt use proper grammar when i said that maybe you should read it again. so yeah, you started it...

can we stay on topic and drop the mud slinging? everyone is getting upset.

i want to say that i support our troops! you guys rock! you do stuff that most of the people here cant.

like i said earlier, i understand why people do it, just dont think its right cus its illegal. just like getting out-shot by a little girl should be illegal

if the left wants respect from the right, then they need to stop being such weenies. if the right wants respect from the left, STOP TORTURING. pretty simple.

i know im going to get mad grief from this... CANT WE ALL JUST GET ALONG??

ROFL... I wish we could. I truly do. Then I could be unemployed-) And my nine year old, benefits from the greatest training on the planet-) she say thank to the taxpayers by the way.-)

[edit on 23-4-2009 by poedxsoldiervet]

reply posted on 23-4-2009 @ 02:31 PM by drwizardphd

Originally posted by poedxsoldiervet

Not this type of "Torture" (which isnt really torture) Goverment Lawyers and congresional leader from both sides of the aisle said these methods were okay and had no problem with it. Now all of a sudden it has become a big issue. I am sorry I am not buying this crap that people are selling. its been going on since 2002 and recently it has become an issue. Does anyone else see a problem with this?

Yes, as your argument loses its ability to hold water you begin to reach for ever-harder-to-grasp points.

First you say it is not torture, when it clearly falls under both the U.S. and International definition of torture.

Then you say that government lawyers and congressional leaders had no problem with it. They are complicit and should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

Then you say that its been going on since 2002 and recently it has become a problem. That is because it was allowed to continue under a criminal administration.

Your entire argument has fallen apart. Torture is illegal, unjust, and inhumane. There is no reasonable defense for it.

reply posted on 23-4-2009 @ 02:32 PM by David9176

i've seen a few comparisons to waterboarding and basic training in the military.

I'd just like to point out one thing here.

You joined the military voluntarily...if you were possibly drafted then that is different.

We should NOT torture. Waterboarding to me is torture...i sure as hell wouldn't want to do it...nor would I want to do it to someone else.

There are many ways to get information....and someone who is being tortured WILL SAY ANYTHING TO STOP BEING TORTURED.

There are many other techniques that work without putting someone in pain.

They will tell you what you want to hear.

How is this not obvious to people?

If you are drowning my ass and putting me through pain...I'll tell you anything to get you to stop.

I'll tell you there are WMD'S IN IRAQ EVEN THOUGH THERE IS NOT.

SO BUSH CAN WAGE HIS WAR IN IRAQ.

I hope they prosecute those responsible.

This country is supposed to stand for liberty and freedom...NOT TORTURE.

[edit on 23-4-2009 by David9176]

reply posted on 23-4-2009 @ 02:32 PM by cautiouslypessimistic

reply posted on 23-4-2009 @ 02:33 PM by earthman4

reply posted on 23-4-2009 @ 02:34 PM by drwizardphd

Originally posted by dooper
reply to post by drwizardphd

We find that non-uniformed combatants follow none of the required conditions for protection under the Geneva Conventions, and if you don't practice, you don't benefit.

The Geneva Conventions can be understood as a contract between two nations. If one side breaks the rules, then the contract is broken.

Since you obviously didn't read my post, I'll say it again.

THE GENEVA CONVENTION IS NOT THE ONLY INTERNATIONAL BODY OF LAW PROHIBITING TORTURE. IT IS PROHIBITED BY UDHR, UNCAT and UNITED STATES LAW.

Sorry for the caps, somehow I felt that if I didn't emphasize it properly you would selectively glance over it again.

Please, if you can think of a good reason to violate two bodies of international law, as well as our domestic law, do state it.

reply posted on 23-4-2009 @ 02:35 PM by cautiouslypessimistic

Originally posted by poedxsoldiervet
reply to post by cautiouslypessimistic

Again I am not trying to make it personal for you. From what I understood from your post, I thought you had a better way.

And yes under certain circumstances I do agree with previous methods such as waterboarding, loud music, sleep deprvivation, cold rooms.

The only response I have gotten from any of you about my assertion of constitutional law is "what are YOU doing about it" or "why dont YOU sign up" or "its easy to criticize from the sidelines".

I'm sorry but ignoring the FACTUAL side of the debate and turning it directly onto the person giving his opinion(which is backed up by FACT) is deflecting and trying to turn it personal.

reply posted on 23-4-2009 @ 02:35 PM by noangels

Thank you OP for signing up to protect our freedoms,I and my friends are now free to have a great night out in pubs without having to meet your type there and ruin it.So pleased your over there,but saying that I wish you no harm or your family and hope you make your future tours back safely in one piece to join your loved ones.

Basic training=torture!

As it has been clearly mentioned above,its not close in the slightest>poor sod having to stand out in the rain!lol

you sure that wasnt basic training for the scouts!

anyway semper fudge and keep your head down

reply posted on 23-4-2009 @ 02:37 PM by 5thElement

Originally posted by poedxsoldiervet
International law does not trumph the us laws.

Source

2. No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat of war, internal political instability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture.

Which part of this particular sentence you do not understand ?

I'll be more than happy to help...

If we as the country signed this agreement (United Nations Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment) we should respect it or get out of it.

If we got in just to protect our POW, getting out of it would not be very smart thing to do, wouldn't it ?

reply posted on 23-4-2009 @ 02:37 PM by cautiouslypessimistic

Originally posted by drwizardphd

Originally posted by dooper
reply to post by drwizardphd

We find that non-uniformed combatants follow none of the required conditions for protection under the Geneva Conventions, and if you don't practice, you don't benefit.

The Geneva Conventions can be understood as a contract between two nations. If one side breaks the rules, then the contract is broken.

Since you obviously didn't read my post, I'll say it again.

THE GENEVA CONVENTION IS NOT THE ONLY INTERNATIONAL BODY OF LAW PROHIBITING TORTURE. IT IS PROHIBITED BY UDHR, UNCAT and UNITED STATES LAW.

Sorry for the caps, somehow I felt that if I didn't emphasize it properly you would selectively glance over it again.

Please, if you can think of a good reason to violate two bodies of international law, as well as our domestic law, do state it.

And I will back you up further, by once again stating that ANY TREATY MADE BY THE UNITED STATES IS SECONDARY TO CONSTITUTIONAL LAW. So even if there was a treaty with the UN that flat out said "you can torture anyone and everyone" it is still totally unconstitutional, and therefore a direlection of duty by ANY PERSON SWORN TO THE CONSTITUTION (armed forces, politicians) to perform these acts.

reply posted on 23-4-2009 @ 02:38 PM by drwizardphd