Torture? I went through worse in basic training, page 6

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reply posted on 23-4-2009 @ 12:44 PM by earthman4

So far there are no military personel willing to get $15 an hour to get waterboarded. My point has been proven. Basic training gives the option to quit, torture does not. My country tortured a British citizen for 7 years and then found he was innocent. I am ashamed. Never again will we become our enemies.

reply posted on 23-4-2009 @ 12:48 PM by Spiramirabilis

reply to post by poedxsoldiervet

I remeber a Staff Segeant Matt Maupin who was brutally murder and torture with out any trial at all.

so that was wrong then - wasn't it? worse than wrong - there aren't words available to us that can adequately explain how wrong

... in september of 2003, my patrol came across two children whos parents had been brutally tortured and then murder by these TERRIOST THUGS, all because they were seen as helping American troops clean trash up....

I hope you'll listen to me when I say this - I really hope you're not too angry to understand

nobody should ever have to see the things you saw - nobody

I don't even understand how you're still able to function - because I would lose my mind - it's hard enough for me to even hear you talk about it

I have no argument with you - I have no idea what my position would be in reality - if I'd experienced any of what you've gone through

I only hope that you can reach a point someday where you see - it has to stop

there has got to be a person - a group - a country - that's strong enough to say - it has to stop

brutality solves nothing - not even with god on your side

there is no winning at this - for anyone

reply posted on 23-4-2009 @ 12:51 PM by poedxsoldiervet

Originally posted by earthman4
So far there are no military personel willing to get $15 an hour to get waterboarded. My point has been proven. Basic training gives the option to quit, torture does not. My country tortured a British citizen for 7 years and then found he was innocent. I am ashamed. Never again will we become our enemies.

Reread I said I would TAKE THAT OFFER>

reply posted on 23-4-2009 @ 12:55 PM by poedxsoldiervet

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
reply to post by poedxsoldiervet

I remeber a Staff Segeant Matt Maupin who was brutally murder and torture with out any trial at all.

so that was wrong then - wasn't it? worse than wrong - there aren't words available to us that can adequately explain how wrong

... in september of 2003, my patrol came across two children whos parents had been brutally tortured and then murder by these TERRIOST THUGS, all because they were seen as helping American troops clean trash up....

I hope you'll listen to me when I say this - I really hope you're not too angry to understand

nobody should ever have to see the things you saw - nobody

I don't even understand how you're still able to function - because I would lose my mind - it's hard enough for me to even hear you talk about it

I have no argument with you - I have no idea what my position would be in reality - if I'd experienced any of what you've gone through

I only hope that you can reach a point someday where you see - it has to stop

there has got to be a person - a group - a country - that's strong enough to say - it has to stop

brutality solves nothing - not even with god on your side

there is no winning at this - for anyone

I will be the first to admitt that war is not pretty and pretty much a waste of time. BUT when we as a world can not come together and unite as one, then we will continue to have WARS. I do agree I would love for the entire world to get together and Be at peace and Explore the Galaxy and cure dieseases. But right now its not going to happen I know that and you know that. For whatever reseaon ( pick one there are plenty) its not going to stop today. Maybe one day but I suspect you and I will be long from this exsitance.

Also thank you for your consideration and kind words. Time heals all wounds.

[edit on 23-4-2009 by poedxsoldiervet]

reply posted on 23-4-2009 @ 12:56 PM by The 5th

We are all entitled to our own views, opinions etc, but in the grand scheme of things

I remember doing drills in pouring rain for about 15-20 minutes. We were running in place and doing push ups.

.... is not torture.

reply posted on 23-4-2009 @ 12:57 PM by cautiouslypessimistic

Do you not see that the attitude that "war is not pretty, so we must embrace the ugliness" is the EXACT reason why this species cannot move forward?

reply posted on 23-4-2009 @ 01:02 PM by mahtoosacks

reply to post by earthman4

youll pay me to let you pour water on my face??? SWEET!!

... i mean NO PLEASE DONT..... *WINK* I WONT TELL YOU ANYTHING!! *WINKWINK*

this is a pretty bad debate. noone is really getting anywhere.

the weenies say its bad. the hardasses think its weak. i dont see this changing anytime soon.

i do however believe that as a professional army, we shouldnt act like a bunch of goons. and yes if you torture you look like a goon.

goon (gn)
n. Slang
1. A thug hired to intimidate or harm opponents.
2. A stupid or oafish person.

the first one... im not calling anyone stupid for their opinion, but thugs are what we become.

i really dont think this issue should have made it to the mainstream. if it happens in small instances, then it happens, and those involved should be punished as per the geneva convention.

those of you against torture are right. its wrong to do to people. and if you are seperated from your family and have no idea what will happen next, its terrifying experience.

those of you for torture are right as well. you can get some great info from people by threatening bodily harm. there is even a doctor present to make sure they can continue to talk (whats the point in torture if they die and cant talk) and your side is probably more jaded to THEY ARE THE ENEMY, DO WHATEVER NECESSARY TO MAKE THIS pos TALK. which i agree with too... must be all the die hard and rambo movies.

its all comes down to professionalism. if we are the greatest military in the world then we should act it. that means following all the rules.

only problem is following the rules often leads to being left behind. or it could lead to an open awareness that we are awesome AND we follow the rules... now that would really make the enemy want to give up info.....

dont hate me.... i can see both sides.

edit: forgot to mention that we shouldnt torture because it would make the enemy think its a good idea to torture too. maybe we should torture only IF that particular enemy tortures....

[edit on 4/23/2009 by mahtoosacks]

reply posted on 23-4-2009 @ 01:02 PM by Spiramirabilis

reply to post by poedxsoldiervet

I will be the first to admitt that war is not pretty and pretty much a waste of time. BUT when we as a world can not come together and unite as one, then we will continue to have WARS. I do agree I would love for the entire world to get together and Be at peace and Explore the Galaxy and cure dieseases. But right now its not going to happen I know that and you know that. For whatever reseaon ( pick one there are plenty) its not going to stop today. Maybe one day but I suspect you and I will be long from this exsitance.

you're not wrong

and as long as there are people in the world that are willing to hurt others - nobody gets to rest - and something has to be done

but I believe we have choices about how we fight

we have choices about where we're willing to draw the line - even if that means we have to say:

I will not torture another human being - because I want to be better than that

I need to be better than that

I will not be - like that

it starts with the individual - and it has to start somewhere

and I hope you have someone you can talk to about this - and that you will talk

I mean it

reply posted on 23-4-2009 @ 01:04 PM by jd140

I think the OP just gave you guys a pile of lies.

It was so wet that him and his buddy had to sleep back to back?

I wonder how bubba remembers the expierance?

They slept on the side of the road during a FTX?

Not only is that dangerous but against all post rules. That is why during the only FTX in basic that is over night is the 3 day one at the end. Which is done in a designated field where they have designated safety spots where troops who are napping must be. All of which are away from paved and active roads.

reply posted on 23-4-2009 @ 01:05 PM by cautiouslypessimistic

Originally posted by mahtoosacks
reply to post by earthman4

youll pay me to let you pour water on my face??? SWEET!!

... i mean NO PLEASE DONT..... *WINK* I WONT TELL YOU ANYTHING!! *WINKWINK*

this is a pretty bad debate. noone is really getting anywhere.

the weenies say its bad. the hardasses think its weak. i dont see this changing anytime soon.

.

Thats funny, because I have provided constitutional reasns for all of my claims, and have gotten the OP, and others, to concede. So I'd say Ive done pretty well.

I find it pretty disgusting that you are making light of torture.

It's either that, or you dont understand what waterboarding is.

reply posted on 23-4-2009 @ 01:06 PM by platosallegory

This is not torture.

If this was torture then I was tortured at basic training for 8 weeks. Air Assault school is worse than anything I've seen in these memo's (101st).

I volunteered to serve and protect the country, these guys volunteered to destroy it.

It's a shame that people cry for terrorist because their in a room with a bug. Do you know how many bugs I had to sleep around?

I had to crawl 100 yards under live fire or march 20 miles with a 20-30 pound backpack.

Yes, I volunteered for the Army but not to be tortured.

If they are going to claim the nonsense in this memo is torture, then I was tortured by the government. Nothing in these memos is worse than the things I went through.

My basic training was hard but it's not even in the same universe as SEAL or Special Op's training and you want to complain about a terrorist in the room with a bug as torture? This is pure NONSENSE!

reply posted on 23-4-2009 @ 01:06 PM by on_yur_6

reply posted on 23-4-2009 @ 01:11 PM by mahtoosacks

reply to post by cautiouslypessimistic

yeah its fake drowning is what it is...

ive seen the diagrams, and the testimony, and the everything.

you joked, so i did too.

besides i myself have been through way worse (and im not even military)

hell ive come close to drowning, its not fun, but if youre going to pay me...

and i guess you only read the first part of my post.

[edit on 4/23/2009 by mahtoosacks]

reply posted on 23-4-2009 @ 01:13 PM by cautiouslypessimistic

Originally posted by mahtoosacks
reply to post by cautiouslypessimistic

yeah its fake drowning is what it is...

ive seen the diagrams, and the testimony, and the everything.

you joked, so i did too.

besides i myself have been through way worse (and im not even military)

hell ive come close to drowning, its not fun, but if youre going to pay me...

Where did I joke? There is nothing funny about torture to me.

I have been through some AWFUL things in my life. Does that mean someone has the right to inflict more AWFUL things on me, especially with no right to defend myself?

The logic used by those on here who justify this is disgusting, and shameful.

reply posted on 23-4-2009 @ 01:15 PM by mahtoosacks

reply to post by cautiouslypessimistic

why dont you start over with my post again... and actually read it this time.

i called those who torture goons...

i said it wasnt what a professional army should do...

i think you dont know how to read really...

reply posted on 23-4-2009 @ 01:20 PM by Wildbob77

To me, torture is when the sharp bladed instruments come out and body parts start coming off.

We all need to really consider what is going on in the world before we air our dirty laundry in front of the world.

There are some seriously bad people out there with evil intentions. When one of these people gets caught I don't think that they should be rewarded by being sent to a country club.

I do think that all efforts should be made to verify that someone falls into the "evil" category before any coercive interrogation techniques are used.

I don't think that they should be used on just anyone that you happen to catch.

However, I do think that there are occasions where they should be allowed to be used.

reply posted on 23-4-2009 @ 01:23 PM by platosallegory

Drowning?

These guys were never in danger of drowning being under water for 20-40 seconds with a Doctor standing by.

They didn't know this and that's why it worked. Now they know this with the release of these memo's.

You always keep them guessing.

Even if Obama is gonna stop doing this, he didn't have to tell the world.

The terrorist have to be jumping for joy.

Your calling being under water for 20-40 seconds torture, look what the SEALS go through.

Another important part of basic conditioning is drown-proofing. In this evolution, trainees must learn to swim with both their hands and their feet bound. To pass drown-proofing, trainees enter a 9-foot-deep pool and complete the following steps with their hands and feet tied:

bob for 5 minutes
float for 5 minutes
swim 100 meters
bob for 2 minutes
do some forward and backward flips
swim to the bottom of the pool and retrieve an object with their teeth
return to the surface and bob five more times

science.howstuffworks.com...

This is not torture.

[edit on 23-4-2009 by platosallegory]

reply posted on 23-4-2009 @ 01:24 PM by mahtoosacks

reply to post by Wildbob77

yeah but we really shouldnt torture period. its against the law. and if our people who uphold law expect US (the people) to uphold it, then they should lead by example.

we could spend another 5k posts just talking about what kind of "BAD" person should be tortured and which ones are only kinda bad enough to not.

reply posted on 23-4-2009 @ 01:25 PM by cautiouslypessimistic