Torture? I went through worse in basic training

Originally posted by poedxsoldiervet
reply to post by Rook1545

 

Yes except no where in any of the Americas or the west relgions or goverments have we sworn to destroy the infidels and, wipe nations off the map, and kill all unbelivers. Now if I am wrong please show it to me. (Minus Hitlers freaking rampage that was stopped, and those idiot crusaders)

I would like you to give me specific examples of a government in the Middle East that has declared a full blown jihad] against the West in recent times. I would also like to know, IF there is one, if they they did just for giggles or if they did in response to foriegn policy of a Western nation. I am guessing IF you can come up with an example, it would be because we could not leave well enough alone.

Originally posted by poedxsoldiervet

but that is besides the fact Saddam was an Ass had to go.

That is not up to us. If the Iraqi people want to oust him, they can do it. You justify over a million Iraqi deaths because Saddam was an ass? Who the hell do you think you are? You think it is America's birthright to have dominion over the entire earth or something? Jesus, and I thought Joseph Goebbels was a good propagandist, I'd like to know who produces your brand of brainwashing.

Originally posted by poedxsoldiervet
reply to post by Seany

 

No doubt, But Saddam was a bad dude. He tortured more people then bush could even count to.

SO is Kim Jong Il. So is Amadenijad (sp?). So are HUNDREDS of war tribe leaders in Africa. So tell me why Saddam was more important...

Plato, I'm glad you posted this. I've been watching this on the news and the sudden non-issue and I laugh at the premise that this is torture.

Let's get this out of the way. Under international law, a non-uniformed combatant has zero rights, and once he picks up a weapon instantly becomes a non-legal entity, and is due zero protections under any of the Geneva Conventions.

So, what does this allow you to do? Well, since picking up a weapon he is now a non-entity, every breath he takes is at your convenience. You are free to execute on the spot, or take him for questioning, use extreme psychological measures, get what you want, and then execute. All legally, all practiced over the past near-century by every major military.

Waterboarding is a psychological weapon. The ones you want to use this on are especially those who are from desert areas. After all, no blood, no foul. It will scare the crap out of you, but it is neither physically damaging, nor does it place your life at any risk.

The reason I appreciate your post is that in our training, we were waterboarded, had our faces shoved into mud, were dragged through that mud behind a jeep, had weapons fired off near our heads while blindfolded after being threatened, and was forced to blindly listen to some of the most horrendous sounds from an apparent interrogation going on next door.

Very realistic, and though it was conducted through training, it would scare the hell out of you. Which was the purpose.

If waterboarding is torture, then I've been tortured.

Yeah. Right.



[edit on 23-4-2009 by dooper]

I will start off by saying that i totaly believe that those memos are a joke. All the techniques presented there are just a warmup for the next stages of torture .

Indeed during training we endure more crap and so on but that is what we signed up for. You know you are not going to die during training and that it's just a training period to make you stronger , sharper and try to not make you go nuts as soon as you arrive on the battlefield.

I agree that Sadam tortured his people and so on , however he is the bad guy . Do we need to be the same or worse then our opponent or show them that we respect people and their rights no matter the circumstances?

I know that torture will not cease no matter what because it's been around since medieval times but remember that you might be the next terrorist in your goverment's eyes. Torture is wrong and most of the times with no succesful results. People panic and tell you everything you want to hear just to make it stop especially when they have not been trained for this type of situations. They will only hate you more , give you wrong intel and you will end up worse then you started .

When you take one person's rights away you might as well take everyone else's as well. Its not moraly right .

Originally posted by dooper
Plato, I'm glad you posted this. I've been watching this on the news and the sudden non-issue and I laugh at the premise that this is torture.

Let's get this out of the way. Under international law, a non-uniformed combatant has zero rights, and once he picks up a weapon instantly becomes a non-legal entity, and is due zero protections under any of the Geneva Conventions.

S

Very realistic, and though it was conducted through training, it would scare the hell out of you. Which was the purpose.

If waterboarding is torture, then I've been tortured.

Yeah. Right.



[edit on 23-4-2009 by dooper]

Okay, let's discuss The Geneva Treaty. Did you know that th United States is ILLEGALLY ENTERED INTO THIS TREATY? Did you know that, in plain lettering, the constitution says flat out that it is the SUPREME LAW OF THE LAND, and that all treaties made by this country are secondary to the constitution?

So, regardless of what the geneva treaty says, the constitution, in amendmant 8, says no cruel and unusual punishement.

Did you know that according to our constitution, EVERYONE (note, not just american citizens) has the right to a speedy and fair trial, and he right to confront witnesses? Did you know they have a right, under our constitution, to a trial by impartial jury?

When do you suppose these rights were realized for these detainees?

reply to post by dooper

Let's get this out of the way. Under international law, a non-uniformed combatant has zero rights, and once he picks up a weapon instantly becomes a non-legal entity, and is due zero protections under any of the Geneva Conventions.

People in other countries can own guns legally as well you know. So Mr Ahmad who legally owns a gun and is not uniformed instantly becomes a combatant to be torturned in your eyes?






Seriously people! I can see a few folk on here that would more than likely gladly torture anyone that was labelled 'the enemy' without a second thought. Or does that only apply to those that are not American? Or those that aren't white? Or just Asian people?

The fact that some of you can say that American rights come before human rights is nothing short of disgusting and you don't deserve human rights if you think that's the case.

Originally posted by cautiouslypessimistic

Originally posted by poedxsoldiervet

Originally posted by cautiouslypessimistic
Whats more sad than anything, I think, is the attitude of "ive been treated worse, so torture is okay".

Whether it be the systematic torture/brainwashing of our armed forces, or the torture of these so called "terrorists" matters not. Torture is unconstitutional, and condoning it is disgusting.

Show me in the constitution where it says waterboarding is illegal? Are enemy is far worse then you can imagine ok? They want nothing more then the destruction of the west and America and to turn this whole world into a back water muslim world. Now maybe us war fighters are not honorable creatures in your eyes but with out our might do you think the iman would give a damn about your rights at all?

Look at amendment 8 my friend:


"Our" enemy is nothing of the sort. It is a made up foe, that cannot be defeated. Propaganda does not work on those of us that think logically, my friend.

It's all great and good that you are prejudice against muslims, but in case you havent noticed, we are doing the sam thing with democracy, capitolism and christianity. Why is our forcing our way of life on people okay, but someone recipricating is not?

This has nothing to do with how I feel about "war fighters". It has everything to do with the hypocritical view that we can force our views on others, but the minute anyone pushes back., they are a terrorist.

You are a victim of propaganda my friend.

Okay I do give you that the 8th admendment cleary states cruel and unusual punishments inflicted. But Congress new of these methods way before the media and obama and peliosi went pyscio about this. (www.foxnews.com...) See here. So now that Barry is in control and dems run the show it is now wrong. Who is being fed propaganda?

Originally posted by Rook1545
I would like you to give me specific examples of a government in the Middle East that has declared a full blown jihad] against the West in recent times. I would also like to know, IF there is one, if they they did just for giggles or if they did in response to foriegn policy of a Western nation. I am guessing IF you can come up with an example, it would be because we could not leave well enough alone.

I guess it doesnt matter what i say you have already made up your mine that america is evil.

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[edit on 24-4-2009 by Gemwolf]

reply to post by poedxsoldiervet


Knew about it or not does not excuse the fact that is wrong. Why does it always have to come down to a Democrat vs Republican or Liberal vs Conservative thing?

Originally posted by aravoth

Originally posted by poedxsoldiervet

but that is besides the fact Saddam was an Ass had to go.

That is not up to us. If the Iraqi people want to oust him, they can do it. You justify over a million Iraqi deaths because Saddam was an ass? Who the hell do you think you are? You think it is America's birthright to have dominion over the entire earth or something? Jesus, and I thought Joseph Goebbels was a good propagandist, I'd like to know who produces your brand of brainwashing.

Show me America killed 1 million iraqis and dont give me some bogus far left website. And to be honest with when tryanny is going on It is EVERYONES birthright to stop it. not just in iraq but everywhere else in the world. I do agree that people have the right to life liberty and the pursuit of happyness. If there goverment or americas for that matter cant give it to them then by all means free them.

reply to post by poedxsoldiervet


I'm calling BS. People that understand our constitution have been opposed to torture for longer than you or I have been alive.

I am not going to get pulled into you repub/dem garbage that you are trying to make this about, as it has nothing to do with it. ALL INVOLVED ARE GUILTY. Party affiliation matters not. Thats all I will say on that subject, so dont even try and pull me nto it again.

Bottom line, torture is unconstitutional. You just admitted it. What else is there to argue?

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[edit on 24-4-2009 by Gemwolf]

Originally posted by Rook1545
reply to post by poedxsoldiervet

 

Knew about it or not does not excuse the fact that is wrong. Why does it always have to come down to a Democrat vs Republican or Liberal vs Conservative thing?

CONGRESS AND THE PRESIDENT APPROVED THESE METHODS END OF DISCUSSION

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[edit on 24-4-2009 by Gemwolf]

Originally posted by poedxsoldiervet

I guess it doesnt matter what i say you have already made up your mine that america is evil.

Who said anything about America? It is not the only Western nation, although from what you have been saying, you seem to think it is the only one.

You put forth that there are governments on this planet that's sole purpose is to destroy the west. I asked you for an example, you can't give me one. That has nothing to do with me hating America, it has to do with you not being able to backup your claims.

Why do you have to resort to this? Just because people question your statements, does not mean we hate anything. In fact I would say it is the opposite. You put forth a xenophobic statemant and can't back it up. You fail.

reply to post by Rook1545


okay Saudi Arabia indirectly/directly gives money to hamas hezbollah and some of the princes fund these teriost training camps. IRAN FUNDS ALL terriost groups and provides them with training. This does not count the many other goverments who give terriosts safe haven.

Maybe if your head was out of your ass and you would see these things but then again what do I know? Cause you are so right.

[edit on 23-4-2009 by poedxsoldiervet]

Originally posted by poedxsoldiervet

Show me America killed 1 million iraqis and dont give me some bogus far left website. And to be honest with when tryanny is going on It is EVERYONES birthright to stop it. not just in iraq but everywhere else in the world. I do agree that people have the right to life liberty and the pursuit of happyness. If there goverment or americas for that matter cant give it to them then by all means free them.

I'm calling BS, once again. You really ought to read your constitution, especially since you are sworn to protect it.


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[edit on 24-4-2009 by Gemwolf]

Originally posted by poedxsoldiervet

Originally posted by Rook1545
reply to post by poedxsoldiervet

 

Knew about it or not does not excuse the fact that is wrong. Why does it always have to come down to a Democrat vs Republican or Liberal vs Conservative thing?

CONGRESS AND THE PRESIDENT APPROVED THESE METHODS END OF DISCUSSION

Now you just make no sense at all. Yes they knew about it...what is your point? Mine was that it doesn't matter if they knew or not, it is wrong. While there is somethign gettign done about it now, even though it is too late, something is still being done about it.

Originally posted by platosallegory
I looked at these memos and these things are not torture. I went through worse during basic training in the Army.

Ya know, when you were going thru basic training you had a guarantee of an end. 8 weeks you are done. Imagine doing that for years then tell me its not torture. Imagine no end...



[edit on 23-4-2009 by ImzadiDax]

Originally posted by poedxsoldiervet

Originally posted by Rook1545
reply to post by poedxsoldiervet

 

Knew about it or not does not excuse the fact that is wrong. Why does it always have to come down to a Democrat vs Republican or Liberal vs Conservative thing?

CONGRESS AND THE PRESIDENT APPROVED THESE METHODS END OF DISCUSSION

Neither congress or the president has the right to circumvent the constitution. As someone sworn to protect the constitution against enemies foreig and domestic, dont you have a problem with the fact that, by your own admission, the president and congress where acting outside of the constitution?

Shouldnt you be "protecting us" from demestic enemies of the constitution, if that's the case?

Originally posted by Rook1545

Originally posted by poedxsoldiervet

Originally posted by Rook1545
reply to post by poedxsoldiervet

 

Knew about it or not does not excuse the fact that is wrong. Why does it always have to come down to a Democrat vs Republican or Liberal vs Conservative thing?

CONGRESS AND THE PRESIDENT APPROVED THESE METHODS END OF DISCUSSION

I am sorry for the confusion after re reading I should have clarified things. If we are going to proscute the lawyers and ex King George admin then the Congress men/women who knew these methods were going on need to be proscuted to. They wont though do to the fact that some powerful dems and repubs where in on those hearing. you honestly think there going to proscute george?

Now you just make no sense at all. Yes they knew about it...what is your point? Mine was that it doesn't matter if they knew or not, it is wrong. While there is somethign gettign done about it now, even though it is too late, something is still being done about it.