Torture? I went through worse in basic training

Originally posted by dooper
reply to post by smokingmonkey

 

The idea of being intercepted on his way to paradise, converted into a greasy, steamy pile of hog crap is not going to make momma proud, nor will it entice new recruits.

It's unfortunate that you're so full of hate. I see you as a failure of our military to help you deal with your issues. It's a shame the people like you are not helped back into civilian life but instead are left to wallow in your festering hatred.

reply to post by jfj123


Oh yeah. Poor, poor pitiful me.

It would stop suicide bombings though if all the little pieces were gathered, placed in baggies, and fed to the hogs on camera.

Fact.

Except when they strap the vests on retards who don't even know what's going on.

Really nice guys.

And I'm the one with such hatred.

Hey! You're the expert!

Originally posted by dooper
reply to post by jfj123

 

Oh yeah. Poor, poor pitiful me.

It would stop suicide bombings though if all the little pieces were gathered, placed in baggies, and fed to the hogs on camera.

Fact.

Except when they strap the vests on retards who don't even know what's going on.

Really nice guys.

And I'm the one with such hatred.

Hey! You're the expert!

WOW ! What are you even talking about?
Seriously?
Do you really advocate the torture of innocent people ??

A combination of “enhanced interrogation” techniques approved by high-level Bush administration officials coupled with a series of brutal beatings administered by military interrogators were directly responsible for the December 2002 deaths of two detainees at Bagram airbase in Afghanistan, according to a report released last week by the Senate Armed Services Committee.

The report classified their deaths as homicides. In other words, the two prisoners were tortured to death.

www.pubrecord.org...

reply to post by jfj123


I think a suicide bomber could be classified as a non-uniformed combatant. And of course, under international law, you can dispose of the pieces any way you wish.

And if it worked against suicide bombers . . .

Originally posted by dooper
reply to post by jfj123

 

I think a suicide bomber could be classified as a non-uniformed combatant. And of course, under international law, you can dispose of the pieces any way you wish.

And if it worked against suicide bombers . . .

At this point it doesn't seem as if you're interested in contributing to this thread in a rational manor. The only purpose of your comments seem have is to be inflammatory. If you're really not interested in moving the discussion forward, why both post at all?

[edit on 30-4-2009 by jfj123]

Well in my opinion these detainees were tortured.

THat said I thought you were going to talk about SERE training. I've had a few navy seals tell me about their experiences with SERE and that was literal torture administered by some very scary been there type counter terrorists and SF operators, the goal was to give them a taste of what they would really be facing if they were captured.

From what I've been told by a SEAL who went through SERE his experience was something like this.

Get hunted down by squads of trackers with dogs. Get submerged up to your neck in cold pond water in a bamboo cage and get a fire hose to the face non stop for hours while they grab you one at a time from this bamboo cage to take you or your buddies off to interrogation. You get hypothermia from the water treatment. When it is your time to get interrogated you get punched, hard enough to break ribs. or noses, jaws etc... You get stuffed into small boxes for periods of time. Get guys to play drum solos on your back with electrified coat hangers. Said they also gave you if you thought you were tough the old hang from your arms treatment. Said that they would tie you to a chair arms behind your back and smack you around. sometimes give you the coat hanger treatment while chained to the chair. If you buck when you get zapped they punch you. if you try not to buck they say nice attempt and they punch you anyways.

They blast the entire time for days on end terrorist sounding music over loud speakers.

When they are done with the rough treatment they have some medical doctor make you do a "physical" afterwards they edit your responses to the Physical examination that they have videotaped and make it look like you are agreeing with the terrorists agenda and philosophy for propaganda purposes.

finally after about three days of this they play patriotic music like born in the USA over the loud speakers. to reassure you that you are still in the USA not really captured and are just going through SERE training. The interrogators leave before you get released to prevent the SERE experiencers from attacking them in anger.
He said that when they tell you it's really over and you get to go home you are so head screwed that you are still jumpy and think it's yet another game they are playing with you. Doctors check you out, almost everybody needs some sort of medical attention from minor to spending a night in the hospital to get your fluids and sugars back up.

It's pretty hardcore apparently from what I've been told and that it's much worse than what the Guantanamo detainees experienced. but who really knows what the worst stuff going on at guantanamo really was. It's possible we were doing some really heinous things.

Originally posted by jfj123

This is the second time this little bit of my post has been quoted. Alone it looks like I make the arguement you accuse me of. All together I am asking what makes us better then what we have done?

Everyone is saying that we are better then that. I am asking when have we been better then that?

At one time, we allowed slavery. We decided that it wasn't morally correct, etc.. so we outlawed slavery. We became better then what we were.

Maybe NOW is the time for us to become better then we were. Throughout history, there have been pivotal moments where people have stood up and said no more or never again. Maybe this is one of those times.

Yes we outlawed slavery.

And when we did outlaw slavery we punished everyone who chose to break that law.

We haven't been nowhere near as diligent about torture. We can't ignore it all this time and one day choose to uphold the law.

The law has to be upheld at all times or it becomes impotent.

If we want to say we were wrong, then so be it. But if we want to prosecute then we have to do a full fledge investigation. We will have to treat the government as a buisness and dig back as far as we can and find out if anyone still in politics or alive was or has ever been involved with torture.

But to call for the head of one administration is nothing but a witch hunt.

Originally posted by dragonridr
reply to post by jfj123

 

Having been to Afghanistan your approach to capture osama would be a joke.There are thousands of caves in the area cant bomb them all.The only way we ever found any locations in those mountains was thou intel. And guess were that intel came from only 2 sources snitches and interrogations of captured insurgents, And i dont think they said please tell us were you guys are hiding. Look ill give you this brand new 360 still in the box. You people are a joke you want your families to be safe from radicals willing to kill you without losing any sleep. But when push comes to shove youll lay down and die.

Having dealt with these terrorists watching them do things such as send a car bomb in the middle of a mosque just to show the afgans the price for removing the taliban. Went into a village not to far from Kandahar alqueda came thou about a month after we helped them dig a well. We handed out dolls and candy to the kids blankets to the adults. When al Queda visited any body who had anything from the soldiers was killed. Ever seen a 5 year old girl shot throu the head because she had a teddy bear?

These people only have one belief and that is convert the world to the Muslim religion and are willing to go as far as they have to in order to further there goals. I was idealistic once but after seeing what were up against im concerned. As far as torture there version of torture was just in humane one tribal leader had his eyes burned out with a hot poker for accepting US govt money. All i have to say is we need this country to toughen up or god help us all.

Quoted for the gospel TRUTH!!!!!!!!!!

How do you handle an enemy that has no problem blowing themselves up?
now that same guy,how would you get any info out of him?you think hes gonna get chatty with a few beers?

Wake up..these people would sooner put there head in a wood chipper then give an infidel anything..

Originally posted by Redpillblues
How do you handle an enemy that has no problem blowing themselves up?

They same way you handle a child rapist or any other criminal.

Charge them, have a trial, then proceed to the next Criminal after you have the verdict for the last one.

The Constitution and Bill of Rights should always be observed - especially when dealing with alleged terrorists.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is wrong and should be put in a re-education camp and waterboarded until they agree or say they agree, IMO .

reply to post by Exuberant1


since when has both of those documents you speek of afford any foreigner protection?

Originally posted by Redpillblues
reply to post by Exuberant1

 

since when has both of those documents you speek of afford any foreigner protection?

It always has....

Until the Bush administration decided that it didn't - which was unconstitutional.

Why do you think America exports its torturing offshore?
(Under your logic, they shouldn't have to do this - but that is your logic...)

Have you even read the Constitution and Bill of Rights?



[edit on 1-5-2009 by Exuberant1]

So your telling me Hadgi in Mosul is protected by the Bill of Rights?

Originally posted by Redpillblues
So your telling me Hadgi in Mosul is protected by the Bill of Rights?

Correct.

The Constitution does not give anyone the right to violate other people's Constitutional Rights.

Congress has yet to Issue a Declaration of War against Iraq - all military operations therein are inherently Unconstitutional until this occurs.



[edit on 1-5-2009 by Exuberant1]

reply to post by Exuberant1


now i know i'm not the smartest person around by far,but I do know that our constitution and bill of rights stop at our borders..


by your logic,unless I'm sadly mistaken,our documents are law world wide..is this what your saying??

but I do know that our constitution and bill of rights stop at our borders..

Do you support Constitution Free Zones?

Do you believe that those are Constitutional?

In your opinion, Is it legal to torture in Constitution Free Zones?

Originally posted by Redpillblues
by your logic,unless I'm sadly mistaken,our documents are law world wide..is this what your saying??

Other countries have their own Constitutions.

Unfortunately for us all; the Constitution and Bill of Rights are not the Supreme Law of The Earth. If every country adopted it and followed it, there would be no wars.

Are you saying that you think Americans do not have to abide by the Constitution and Bill of Rights as soon as they set foot outside the country?

Do you use this reasoning to rationalize what occurs at Guantanamo Bay?

Even on a deserted island, Americans are bound to abide by the Constitution and Bill of Rights. International Law Always applies (unless of course it is Unconstitutional). Google it.

*Please clarify something:

If I waterboarded you after suspecting you of being a terrorist, would I have I committed a crime?

If you think is it a crime; What if I was active military and did it in a Constitution Free Zone- would that then make it legal?


Thanks in advance.

[edit on 1-5-2009 by Exuberant1]

Originally posted by Exuberant1
Do you support Constitution Free Zones?

If your refering to these
www.aclu.org...

for legal US citizen no,I beleive i should be protected by my constitution until i hit international waters..It would make where the documents were signed,well unconstutional

Originally posted by Exuberant1
If I waterboarded you after suspecting you of being a terrorist, would I have I committed a crime? [edit on 1-5-2009 by Exuberant1]

No,you were giving enhanced interrogation

Thanks in advance.

[edit on 1-5-2009 by Redpillblues]

I asked: If I waterboarded you after suspecting you of being a terrorist, would I have I committed a crime?

Your answer:

Originally posted by Redpillblues
No,you were giving enhanced interrogation

Wow.

Thanks for clarifying.

This further substantiates the 'slippery slope' analogy that other members have mentioned earlier in the thread.

*Would you consider a confession extracted from you in this manner to be a real confession?

*What if you were less than 18 years of age, would you still say it wasn't torture?

*Would it still consider it legal if it was your child instead of you?


[edit on 1-5-2009 by Exuberant1]

Please stop!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

your questions are enough torture!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If your trying to find out my mind set or morals or just ask will ya..

I'm all for killing 1 to save a 2-1000...or more..Our government has been doing it for years..and chances are it has kept you and me safe..That is if your a us citizen..

Originally posted by Redpillblues
Please stop!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

your questions are enough torture!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If your trying to find out my mind set or morals or just ask will ya..

My Questions; torture?

Yet you find waterboarding is not?


Please answer my questions:

*Would you consider a confession extracted from you in this manner (waterboarding) to be a real confession?

*What if you were less than 18 years of age, would you still say it wasn't torture?

*Would it still consider it legal if it was your child instead of you who was suspected and waterboarded?

[edit on 1-5-2009 by Exuberant1]