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Originally posted by miketwosix
reply to post by jfj123
Yep, I guess I missed it. I thought this was about waterboarding being torture and how awful America is for stooping so low. No matter how many lives it saved.
Here the deal. When all of this rotten violent stuff finally comes too you, just keep talking, I'm sure they'll be very attentive.
[edit on 25-4-2009 by miketwosix]
Originally posted by jfj123
Originally posted by miketwosix
Directly too you 5th.
Someone you LOVE is about to have thier head cut off right before your very eyes. Your choice is to do what? A little patty cake maybe? Ah, but what if they lose at patty cake and you hurt thier feelings?
Put yourself in the positition, then answer. Would you let it happen or prevent it by any means?
No offense but this example has nothing to do with what is being discussed. What you're talking about is a person witnessing the commission of a crime involving attempted murder. At that point, it is reasonable to prevent the murder using lethal force. You have a direct cause and effect relationship and there is none between torturing people and saving lives.
Originally posted by pexx421
Jesus. This person (op) whining about "what i did in basic training was worse than their torture" Just shows what a wimp he is. Basic training was a cakewalk,
Originally posted by dooper
Anyone who claims that torture doesn't get to the truth, isn't doing it right!
There's a right way, and a wrong way.
Do it right, you get your info.
Originally posted by mmiichael
Good news for all, those waterboarded are still alive and well. Maybe some bad dreams, but that could be indigestion too.
Death and dismemberment are worse.
Rules and laws shouldn't be broken. Sometimes they are.
The US is far from the only place this happens.
One can only try to do better in the future and learn from past mistakes.
Why are there no threads on ATS about torture from other countries.
Finding fault with the US government seems to be some kind of obsessive driving force for so many.
I wonder what that really means.
Originally posted by Styki
reply to post by jfj123
You have to understand that these interrogation methods are just one way of gaining information. They aren't pulling people off of that streets and waterboarding them.
In reality they don't even care about what most people know. There are certain individuals that have key pieces of information and these are high priority targets. Why would they even waste their time interrogating people with useless information?
This is not a tell us everything you know type situation. This is a we know you have this information and you are going to tell us situation.
Originally posted by jfj123
Originally posted by miketwosix
reply to post by jfj123
I'm sorry, how many lives has torture saved? Could you specific regarding the actual numbers saved and the incidents that were averted? Thanks.
You're a sharp guy. I have to hand it too you. Now, lets be specific.
Were you refering to waterboarding torture or wet wool mitten torture?
Just stop all the nonsense OK? I'm not going to convince you and you're not going to convince me. When push comes to shove I hope talking works out well for you.
I guess a good compromise would be to take no prisoners. Drop em right where they stand. Then you won't have anyone to torture. Problem solved!
Something tells me you won't like that idea either.
Originally posted by miketwosix
I'm sorry, how many lives has torture saved? Could you specific regarding the actual numbers saved and the incidents that were averted? Thanks.
You're a sharp guy. I have to hand it too you. Now, lets be specific.
Were you refering to waterboarding torture or wet wool mitten torture?
Just stop all the nonsense OK?
I'm not going to convince you and you're not going to convince me.
When push comes to shove I hope talking works out well for you.
I guess a good compromise would be to take no prisoners. Drop em right where they stand. Then you won't have anyone to torture. Problem solved!
Something tells me you won't like that idea either.
Originally posted by dooper
reply to post by jfj123
You want data on how many lives have been saved, and honestly, I think a lot of that stuff would be classified.
You want to know my personal successes?
I made it a habit to not take prisoners if they weren't in uniform, but on the two occasions I did, both times we needed to know their unit and any other units in the area.
I got my information, and if you want to get your information, you have to buy chips to get into the game, and then earn your place at the table. You haven't earned it, and you can mine for your "data" with someone else.
You're not baiting me with your holier-than-thou pretentious BS.
Just because you're either not smart enough to figure it out, or don't have the stomach for it, doesn't mean there aren't those of us who can't or haven't.
And we did get accurate information, and in fact were able to locate a regiment that at the time was "off the map," not three hundred meters from where we were told they would be.
Originally posted by miketwosix
reply to post by jfj123
Are you saying that not even one life has ever been saved by information gained from torture?
Originally posted by dooper
reply to post by jfj123
Had you read the entire thread,
instead of jumping in like a fat man in a wading pool,
you'd already know a few things, and some of us wouldn't have to repeat stuff over and over again.
You read the opinions of a couple "experts" who likely obtained their opinions from a journal somewhere,
and you're convinced that on can't get accurate information out of a prisoner. Yeah. Riiiiight.
Secret Justice Department memos, released last week ...
...They also note that nonviolent tactics more often were successful than violence.
"The scientific community has never established that coercive interrogation methods are an effective means of obtaining reliable intelligence information," former military interrogation instructor and retired Air Force Col. Steven M. Kleinman wrote in the Intelligence Science Board report. "In essence, there seems to be an unsubstantiated assumption that 'compliance' carries the same connotation as 'meaningful cooperation.'"
In short: Slam someone up against the wall, keep him awake for days, lock him naked in a cell and slap his face enough, and he will probably say something. That doesn't necessarily make it true.
Elsewhere in the Justice Department documents, there are suggestions that the toughest tactics weren't always the most successful. Of the 94 terrorist suspects in the CIA program, only 28 were subjected to "enhanced" methods, the documents said. That means two out of three detainees gave up valuable intelligence in simple interviews.
When the CIA decided to use waterboarding — a tactic that simulates drowning — officials ended up using it far more than intended. Abu Zubaydah was waterboarded at least 82 times in August 2002, the documents said. Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the admitted mastermind of the 9/11 attacks, was waterboarded 183 times in March 2003.
"You keep thinking, 'Maybe one more time, and one more time," Rejali said, explaining how interrogators ramp up their methods even as their effectiveness wanes.
The lawyers sidestepped some thorny questions, such as the consequences of using tactics the U.S. has condemned in Egypt, Iran and Syria. They repeatedly approved the interrogation policies.
And how are things in Never-Neverland?
I'll say it again. You either aren't smart enough to figure it out, or you wouldn't suggest such BS.
The key in any interrogation/confrontation is to first know your enemy.
Each enemy has certain collective abominations they fear, whether due to religious beliefs, superstitions, or cultural fears and untouchables. Then there are abominations and fears that we as mankind fear, regardless of where we are from how we were raised, or regardless or religious beliefs.
Once you know them, you use them. It's a form of extreme psychological dislocation.
One can have another whimpering in terror in just a few minutes. Filled with absolute dread, and you haven't even laid a hand on them. They have been psychologically destroyed though sheer fear and anticipation.
You ask for data? Would you consider official Army documentation to be adequate for your statistical quest?
Originally posted by dooper
reply to post by jfj123
You have one, single Colonel, and one DOJ document that "suggests." Well I would suggest that your overwhelming preponderance of documentation has just blown me away.
That is MOST conclusive! wow.
And why are you calling me Rambo, shifferbranes?
I don't trust military statistics. When given foolish rules of engagement to call in before firing, we knew the enemy when we saw them, with AK's over their shoulder, and we'd light them up.
THEN we'd call in for permission. We'd wait, and if permission was denied, we'd walk off. It never happened. Do you have any idea of how such things skewer the "statistics?"
After a very prosperous day while attached to a line unit, I was asked to report to the Captain, who asked if he could claim three or four of my kills.
I told him they didn't put any more money in my pocket, and that he could claim them all. So that's how he got his Silver Star while concealed underneath a log that day.
Official Army documents.
BS.
Don't believe everything you read.