Torture? I went through worse in basic training

Originally posted by bobbylove321
reply to post by poedxsoldiervet

 

I would like to quote America's council on foreign relations, good ol Henry Kissinger:

"Military men are just dumb stupid animals to be used as pawns in foreign policy"

Now those are your so called American Heroes and Supporters.

If that's the attitude they have towards their own soldiers, then god have mercy.

The military is in fact (enlisted men/women) aware of these quotes. And in fact one day they will rear there ugly head and get it cut off. DO you think we are all mindless sheep. We love are country and Love are people, you are our mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, cousins, wifes, husbands, sons, daughters, cousins, aunts,uncles, neices, nephems, grandma, grandpas, friends. DO you really think that if "they"were to come (NWO) we would not in fact slaughter them? They know that we are the gaurdians and will kill any who dare touch are own. I Stand by this statement and will in fact die before I see a countrymen of mine lead to "camps" or "slavery"

Originally posted by poedxsoldiervet

Do you think Matt Maupin was treatede with respect or how about captain Speicher whos body has yet to be returned to us? Or what about the other soldiers who were captured? they are all dead... Understand ? How many of there captives are dead? How many of them have been released after the military decided that they in fact are not a threat or there was no evidence to hold them?

You did not answer the question. Is it ok for US soldiers to be treated the same way we treat our prisoners?

There is no question our soldiers HAVE been treated poorly and those that did it should be hunted down and pay for those actions.

But, if you are saying torture is ok, then that means we can take those off the list that are guilty of it.

So I ask again. Are you advocating the use of torture against prisoners of war and enemy combatants? It sounds like you are.

I have a family member who is a high ranking Marine officer in Iraq who has chosen to go through more training punishment than you ever have. He chose that and I see no problem with it because it was his choice. If he were to be captured and tortured however I would be VERY angry. And to think his fellow service men such as you said there is nothing wrong with it...see where this all leads?????

Dont pay too much attention to bobby love, if you read any of his other posts youll see that he doesnt exactly think along the same lines as most of the people here on ATS, even our respected foes on here that we love to debate.

Bobby , you werent even addressing the original content that the OP posted......
please stay on topic........

There comes a time in war when people have to make the tough decisions to save the lives of their friends, countrymen, and strangers they will never meet.
I would hate to have to be the person to make these decisions in this time of war.

In my tours there were tough decisions that we did have to make. But that was kill or be killed moments. I dont think its right that we sit here from the armchairs and scream out about how people sitting in positions of power should be punished because of something they did in a time of war, after the 911 stuff, and at the height of the war on terror. What they did was voted on, discussed and found within the parameters of the law.

Maybe it was just on the line of right and wrong, maybe it wasnt......All i know is that we dont have the right to sit here and critique on something most of us will never have to experience........Fact is, whether you think its wrong or not, it saved lives, possibly thousands.

There are things that we should be holding people responsible for, and yes we should stand and raise our voices.....but in this case, I think the right thing was done, however much we dont like it.

Dont use this situation to further party lines or agendas, if you sit there and yell at conservatives and pres bush and everyone else because of this just because of their political views then you are doing it for SELFISH reasons, it doesnt matter what you say your "cause" is........

Bottom line, it did save lives, it was overseen , and the methods used were found within the bounds of the law........

Originally posted by Pilot303

Originally posted by poedxsoldiervet

Do you think Matt Maupin was treatede with respect or how about captain Speicher whos body has yet to be returned to us? Or what about the other soldiers who were captured? they are all dead... Understand ? How many of there captives are dead? How many of them have been released after the military decided that they in fact are not a threat or there was no evidence to hold them?

You did not answer the question. Is it ok for US soldiers to be treated the same way we treat our prisoners?

There is no question our soldiers HAVE been treated poorly and those that did it should be hunted down and pay for those actions.

But, if you are saying torture is ok, then that means we can take those off the list that are guilty of it.

So I ask again. Are you advocating the use of torture against prisoners of war and enemy combatants? It sounds like you are.

I have a family member who is a high ranking Marine officer in Iraq who has chosen to go through more training punishment than you ever have. He chose that and I see no problem with it because it was his choice. If he were to be captured and tortured however I would be VERY angry. And to think his fellow service men such as you said there is nothing wrong with it...see where this all leads?????

Yes I did answer your question. If infact they did treat our POW with respect. But they dont OUR POWs end up dead treated far worse then we treat theress


edit- God forbid if your uncle is to be taken as a pow, you know he would nto come home alive. I pray that you never have to go through that,

[edit on 23-4-2009 by poedxsoldiervet]

Originally posted by ManBehindTheMask
Dont pay too much attention to bobby love, if you read any of his other posts youll see that he doesnt exactly think along the same lines as most of the people here on ATS, even our respected foes on here that we love to debate.

Bobby , you werent even addressing the original content that the OP posted......
please stay on topic........

There comes a time in war when people have to make the tough decisions to save the lives of their friends, countrymen, and strangers they will never meet.
I would hate to have to be the person to make these decisions in this time of war.

In my tours there were tough decisions that we did have to make. But that was kill or be killed moments. I dont think its right that we sit here from the armchairs and scream out about how people sitting in positions of power should be punished because of something they did in a time of war, after the 911 stuff, and at the height of the war on terror. What they did was voted on, discussed and found within the parameters of the law.

Maybe it was just on the line of right and wrong, maybe it wasnt......All i know is that we dont have the right to sit here and critique on something most of us will never have to experience........Fact is, whether you think its wrong or not, it saved lives, possibly thousands.

There are things that we should be holding people responsible for, and yes we should stand and raise our voices.....but in this case, I think the right thing was done, however much we dont like it.

Dont use this situation to further party lines or agendas, if you sit there and yell at conservatives and pres bush and everyone else because of this just because of their political views then you are doing it for SELFISH reasons, it doesnt matter what you say your "cause" is........

Bottom line, it did save lives, it was overseen , and the methods used were found within the bounds of the law........

Well put, I couldnt have said it better and prolly cant. Do you think anyone will actually listen?

Originally posted by poedxsoldiervet


Yes I did answer your question. If infact they did treat our POW with respect. But they dont OUR POWs end up dead treated far worse then we treat theress

So yes, you do advocate the use of the waterboarding etc. against our soldiers. Be sure to share that with your fellow servicemen.

As I said, those that commit war crimes should and have been prosecuted. The list of what are war crimes just got shorter though because of attitudes like yours. Waterboarding and mistreating (torturing?) our prisoners only increases the chances our own soldiers will be mistreated. But I guess thats ok with you based on your logic.

Amazing we hanged people after WWII for waterboarding considering "we" no longer consider it torture.

Originally posted by Pilot303

Originally posted by poedxsoldiervet


Yes I did answer your question. If infact they did treat our POW with respect. But they dont OUR POWs end up dead treated far worse then we treat theress

So yes, you do advocate the use of the waterboarding etc. against our soldiers. Be sure to share that with your fellow servicemen.

As I said, those that commit war crimes should and have been prosecuted. The list of what are war crimes just got shorter though because of attitudes like yours. Waterboarding and mistreating (torturing?) our prisoners only increases the chances our own soldiers will be mistreated. But I guess thats ok with you based on your logic.

Amazing we hanged people after WWII for waterboarding considering "we" no longer consider it torture.

They know that, they also know that if they are taking captive by the enemy they wont come home alive. let see waterboarding or death? I choose waterboarding. Kinda of a no brainer. Dont you think?

And who did we hang after WWII for waterboarding? I was under the impression from what I study NAZIs were put to death for the brutal rape,murder and torture(no waterboarding) of jews,poles,gyosy and whoever else they diddnt like. I dont know about you but my country has never started a war that can has clamied up to 80 Million lives( Not sure if that is the correct number.)

[edit on 23-4-2009 by poedxsoldiervet]

Originally posted by platosallegory
I looked at these memos and these things are not torture.

Waterboarding, being put in a room with bugs or putting you in a cold room is not torture.

I had much worse happen to me during basic training. If you gave me a choice to be waterborded 20-40 seconds a day for 8 weeks vs basic training, you could waterboard me.

To call the things in this memo torture is a danger to our country. This is not torture in any way, shape or form.

Funny you should say that.

In 1947, after the enemy had used waterboarding on Americans during WWII, the US decided it was torture. In fact, they made it a war crime.

So if it was torture and a war crime then, how is it not torture and a war crime now?

Originally posted by Nightflyer28

Originally posted by platosallegory
I looked at these memos and these things are not torture.

Waterboarding, being put in a room with bugs or putting you in a cold room is not torture.

I had much worse happen to me during basic training. If you gave me a choice to be waterborded 20-40 seconds a day for 8 weeks vs basic training, you could waterboard me.

To call the things in this memo torture is a danger to our country. This is not torture in any way, shape or form.

Funny you should say that.

In 1947, after the enemy had used waterboarding on Americans during WWII, the US decided it was torture. In fact, they made it a war crime.

So if it was torture and a war crime then, how is it not torture and a war crime now?

Really wheres the link?

Kinda also funny that again congress (both sides of theaisle) courts lawers and the pres said it was okay.

[edit on 23-4-2009 by poedxsoldiervet]

Originally posted by poedxsoldiervet


Really wheres the link?

Kinda also funny that again congress (both sides of theaisle) courts lawers and the pres said it was okay.

After World War II, we convicted several Japanese soldiers for waterboarding American and Allied prisoners of war. At the trial of his captors, then-Lt. Chase J. Nielsen, one of the 1942 Army Air Forces officers who flew in the Doolittle Raid and was captured by the Japanese, testified: "I was given several types of torture. . . . I was given what they call the water cure." He was asked what he felt when the Japanese soldiers poured the water. "Well, I felt more or less like I was drowning," he replied, "just gasping between life and death."

Source


Yes, we did consider waterboarding a war crime in the 1940's. We are possibly the most hypocritical nation in the world when it comes to matters of obeying international law. We invade countries on the premise that they don't obey it, yet we shirk it ourselves.

And just because the President, and members of Congress OK'd it, doesn't make it OK. It was a war crime then and it's a war crime now.

These practices you call "not torture" and things "less severe" than you claim to have endured during "Basic Training", are, in fact, listed as torture by the US Military, and included in the S.E.R.E. training given to military personnel to be used to survive in the event of capture by the enemy.

A training given in the aftermath of North Koreans torturing US military POW's to extract FALSE confessions, according to the US military. As in "I'll say anything you want to hear to stop the torture" YOU claim is less severe than they supposedly endured during boot camp.

So either you are a liar (most likely), or the most ignorant propagandist I have seen yet on ATS.

Still claiming capturing and torturing Kalid in 2003 led to thwarting the "attacks" om L.A. in 2002?

Bwahahahahahaha

Must be rough, acting all macho and stuff from your keyboard, then having to endure the FACTS that contradict ALL of your ridiculous statements.

Weenies and anti-Americans can now rejoice. As of this moment, dedicated CIA field agents will be abandoning their tasks, with many headed for retirement.

No one wants to work in an environment where you may be prosecuted for doing what you were supposed to be doing.

Now that this secret material is being made public, many countries will be very reluctant to share information worrying about whether the US will release it.

Many dedicated military men will likely abandon the military at the first opportunity.

We saw this same thing in first Carter's Presidency, and then Clinton's. The new rules they put in place gutted our intelligence agencies, and we were surprised on 9-11.

Well, everyone rejoice, as we've got another big attack coming now.

The damage is done, it's irreversable, and hopefully, the attacks that are certain to come, will be in a neighborhood near you.

Congratulations.

Originally posted by dooper
Weenies and anti-Americans can now rejoice. As of this moment, dedicated CIA field agents will be abandoning their tasks, with many headed for retirement.

With any luck, the ones guilty of torturing will be "retiring" to jail cells.

Originally posted by dooper


Well, everyone rejoice, as we've got another big attack coming now.

The damage is done, it's irreversable, and hopefully, the attacks that are certain to come, will be in a neighborhood near you.

Congratulations.

Are you quite finished yet? I think I can speak for most Americans when I say we've had it with all of this moronic fear mongering. 9/11 would never have happened if the government did not play a complicit role in allowing it to happen, and the only thing torture has done for our nation is destroying our namesake.

Why don't you go bury your head in sand, and the rest of us can live out our lives with the liberty and freedom our forefathers intended. I don't know what it must feel like to constantly live in fear of the "terrorist menace", but the Bush administration's version of McCarthyism has obviously worked on you.

reply to post by drwizardphd


drwizard, just because I've spanked you intellectually on a few threads doesn't mean you have to go on the attack every time you see me post.

Our intelligence services were in fact gutted by Carter and Clinton. Our intelligence services were in fact caught by surprise on 9-11.

Like it or not, many Draconian measures over the past several years (that's right - Bush years) were successful in blunting follow-up attacks. To deny this is to be one simple soandso.

Our intelligence services work with contacts in other intelligence services. They share. They cooperate. Lots of times because of common interests, and favors owed.

We are now announcing a number of techniques that potential enemies will now be able to anticipate. Nancy Pelosi and that other California nut have brought to public attention other techniques that we were then forced to abandon.

Doesn't it make anyone else wonder exactly who funds and supports some of these folks?

Iran, Hizballah, Hamas, and Al-queda couldn't have sent to Congress anyone who is doing their job for them as some of our elected leaders.

So yes, we're still targets, we're still under the gun, and it is not paranoia to know that.

It is, however, stupidity not to recognize it.

reply to post by ManBehindTheMask


Im not trying to twist or distort. YOU are twisting and distorting. Methods like this that are used to get information are for a barbaric society. You should know, seeing as how you served, that were a very proud country. But if you get too proud, then youre gonna be able to justify anything. IF it was lawful, and IF it didnt violate our moral integrity as people SWORN TO DEFEND THE COUNTRY AND OUR WAY OF LIFE, then we would still do it. The bottom line is the government was wrong for resorting to methods that we decry as a nation. We need to maintain our moral integrity as a nation or we're no better than the people that started this war. Now being in the military you know we are held up to standards, saying that something is just a suggestion or isnt a law doesnt mean its right. Wrong is wrong.

Whatever your views may be, waterboarding is not just a yes or no answer. First I wanted to give my opinion on military training water boarding compared to military training. There is no comparison with waterboarding and with basic bootcamp or even BUDS training that SEALS go through. Even though basic training sucks you can stop whenever you want knowing all that will happen is some yelling or some other punishment but you know that your not going to die and if you collapse or something people are going to take care of you. With BUDS you go through extremely intense training (which is why their's such a high fall-out rate) but you are going through it in order to reach your goal and again, you can quit whenever you want. However, there is one school that does compare. It's called SERE (Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape) school and even gitmo's chief psychologist and other employees came from there to offer advice. They basically teach you how to evade and resist capture if your caught by sending you out in the woods and have mock missions. My brother is in NAVY SWCC and went through it and he said it's extremly realistic; think G.I. Jane but worse. There has been controversy about the curiculm there long before this mainly in 1995 where it was found that 24 students were actually sexually assaulted. My brother said they would put them in small rooms alone and randomly move them around. They got little if anything to eat and no sleep. At night they would play audio tapes of horrible music (the Barney song over and over) or babies crying and getting shot with a shotgun. He hallucinated constantly seeing people and animals in his room and lost track of time completely because they would randomly turn off and lights and turned on strobe lights. They then interrogated him by tieing his arms above his head, punched him and choked him even making him pass out a couple of times. They then opned his eye and took a needle and kept putting it up to his eye taunting him. He said he honestly thought they were going to and pissed himself. Bottom-line is that equal techniques or even worse are done to some of our military. The thing about waterboarding is that it works diffrently from other techniques so it's hard to define. I think we can agree that it does not cause pain and if it does it's minimal due to struggling. Obviously it causes people to panic because they think they're drowning but that doesn't mean they believe they're going to die. They know that the interrogators want info and they know how waterboarding works. They also know they can stop it, just like bootcamp, by saying something. Most break under 30 secs and it's stopped so they know they can stop it. When you can't breath you freak out and struggle for air and it's not until you can breathe again when you realize your fine and think about how you could've died. Think of a time when you couldn't breath of an MMA fight when a fighter is getting choked. They know they're not going to die but freak out just the same. I do realize it's completely diffrent in interrogation scenarios and understand it's much scarier so I'm not saying their equal. I don't define it as torture but I think it should be used sparingly. I don't think it should be used casually for every prisoner or for any info. I think a certain criteria should be met for it to be used. They should have proof or extremely reliable information that a detainee has information first of all. This should then be crossed refrenced with the importance and matter of the info along with any time restraints. I always ask people who say they are against it in any situation this question. Say a person you love is kidnapped or in a building that's going to be bombed and in your custody. Now you say have 100% proof (videotape, personally witnessed) that he has info to stop it. Imagine it coming down to the day or hour to get it from him to save a loved one and what you would do to get i

Well I tried to read all of this thread, but only after a few pages I figured it's all the same, so I flipped to the last page and sure enough....same arguments. What do I have to add to this "controversial" topic? It's not controversial at all. That's my addition. Abortion is controversial, and so is concealed carry laws, the death penalty, gay rights. These things are controversial, because they have personal meaning to most of us. If the media didn't bring this up would you have ever given it a second thought? I'm willing to bet no. You are all buying in to the propaganda again. When are you going to get it through your thick heads that our opinions mean nothing. Conservative, liberal, democrat, republican...do you honestly think that WATERBOARDING is the worst thing that has been done? These guys do what they want and when they want, and have been since day 1.

Me, personally, am all for waterboarding, but to those out there who are saying that waterboarding goes against everything that being an American is all about, ask yourself this most simple question...why? If waterboarding goes against everything American, then how do you think we got to be American? Do you think we asked the Native Americans for their land? Do you think we asked the British for our freedom? Do you think we asked the Spanish for Texas? No...we forced it from them. And that's how we became Americans. By force. In my opinion we're just carrying on the tradition.

[edit on 23-4-2009 by Chucktah]

reply to post by Chucktah


Yep, lol, it's part of who we are, part of our legendary tradition, along with burgers and baseball

Why I'm against water boarding ?

Because as POW I was water boarded (just one of many "fine" tools of torture I expirienced), yep, for real, in tehnicolor, while arm chair generals of the world were chewing on their Doritos and watching Rambo on TV. Is that enough of the reason for ya ???

reply to post by 5thElement


First of all I need to say thanks and for what you went through for our country, and second of all, by no means will I ever be able to even begin to understand what you went through for our country. But also let me point this out...tourture, let alone waterboarding, has rarely been an issue. Only recently due to the "anti-Bush" movement has this been brought up. That's why I question everyones motivation against this issue.

reply to post by Chucktah


No, I was not American at the time (It was war in Bosnia BTW), but now I am...

It saddens me that what I seen in the war there (And Balkan nations are really not the brightest bulb in Europe in regard to human rights in general), when it comes to treating POW's, is exactly what happened here in the land of the free and the land of the law and justice for all