Torture? I went through worse in basic training

Originally posted by platosallegory


I have spent more time drenched in water than these terrorist and you're going to cry because he's under water for 20-40 seconds with a Doctor on stand by?

If you seem to think that water boarding is so safe and such a wonderful and beautiful experience, I wonder what your explanation might be for why they would need a Doctor near by...

Not to mention the fact that you are beyond over simplifying what is done during water boarding. It is NOT just sticking their head in water for just 20-40 seconds and nothing more.

Here is what water boarding is.
science.howstuffworks.com...

Waterboarding tricks your brain into thinking you are drowning. It is not just "getting them wet". They are being tortured by having the feeling of drowning. Their is forced suffication and inhalation of water which creates that feeling. it is funny how you forgot to mention that part....

Stop trying to compare your sleeping outside in the rain, with torture because you are so far off base you are making yourself look silly.

When you slept outside in the rain, did you have the experinece of drowning? I doubt it.

Water boarding is just one of the MANY torture techniques used on "terrorists".

Torture is torture no matter who the one being tortured is. Your support of causing harm to other humans is concerning.

There is also the FACT that groups such as alqieda use our torture as a recruiting tool. So in that sense continuing to torture is keeping these terrorist groups alive.

Whether it was used on one person, 3 people or everybody in the world, it is torture. Torture does not help as muchh as you seem to believe.

When one is tortured, I am sure you will agree, that the one being torture will say anything they can to get them to stop torturing him/her. Usually what is said is exactly what they want to hear, even if what they want to hear is not true.

Waterboarding is torture. You sleeping out in the rain... is not and trying to compare the two is just beyond silly because they are nothing alike.

One creates the sensation of drowning, and yours doesnt.....

reply to post by drwizardphd

I'm not apologizing, but you're the one who isn't reading.

The US Constitution doesn't apply to the military, during the conduct of war, in a foreign nation. The military has it's own laws and rules, and when a soldier violates these rules he's not brought before a US court.

He faces a courts martial, under the Uniform Military Court of Justice. He doesn't do time in a civilian pokey - he'll do time in the stockade!

One more example: When a sniper or a well-positioned shooter gets the drop on an armed enemy, guess what?

He shoots him, and it's not only legal, but it's his duty.

Now if that soldier was under US law, he couldn't do that, now could he?

Get IT!

Waterboarding is not torture, and is not prohibited by the Constitution, on foreign soil, during the conduct of war, conducted by our military and supporting agencies, against non-uniformed personnel.

Splitting legal hairs is an academic exercise primarily practiced by bored minds whose very pettiness enable these fine-haired dissections, as actual productivity is beyond their capability.

From what I've read here, no one on the thread has seen real, honest-to-God torture. I have, and not by US personnel.

Torture is powdered glass forced into the eyes, and later you introduce saline. Torture is slowly pulling teeth without anesthesia. torture is placing soft rubber cups over the ears, slapping the cup hard, shattering the ear drum. And those are a few of the more moderate practices.

Nah. Waterboarding is not torture, although it's certainly uncomfortable.

And don't let anyone think you can't get good information out of someone using certain psychological techniques. They'll spill their guts telling you everything.

Because unlike physical torture, psychological torture is something that no one want to endure again.




[edit on 23-4-2009 by dooper]

[edit on 23-4-2009 by dooper]

Originally posted by dooper
reply to post by drwizardphd

 

I'm not apologizing, but you're the one who isn't reading.

The US Constitution doesn't apply to the military, during the conduct of war, in a foreign nation. The military has it's own laws and rules, and when a soldier violates these rules he's not brought before a US court.

Constitutional rights protect all American citizens. International and Domestic law dictates what we can and can't do overseas. Torture is in direct violation of all 3 bodies of law.

The military's laws and rules state that you cannot torture. There is no legal justification for torture whatsoever.

I don't care if you don't think waterboarding is torture, because you have seen more extreme forms of torture. It's not really up to you, after all.

Waterboarding is a form of torture[1][2] that consists of immobilizing the victim on his or her back with the head inclined downwards, and then pouring water over the face and into the breathing passages. By forced suffocation and inhalation of water, the subject experiences drowning and is caused to believe they are about to die.[3] It is considered a form of torture by legal experts,[4][5] politicians, war veterans,[6][7] intelligence officials,[8] military judges,[9] and human rights organizations.[10][11]

Source

As you can see, it is considered torture almost universally by a range of experts, and is defined internationally as a form of torture.

reply to post by gimme_some_truth


You have to be joking.

There not in any danger of drowning while under water 20-40 seconds with a Doctor on Stand By.

They don't know that and that's why it works. Now they could go through waterboarding for 20-40 seconds easily.

All they have to do is hold their breath for 20-40 seconds or just take it because they know it will be over soon.

I remember one guy in our unit was worked so hard, he had to be taken to the hospital after he passed out. I have not heard of one of these guys passing out after waterboarding.

Again, there's no danger of drowning when your underwater 20-40 seconds but they don't know this. Now they do, I'm sure they will train to avoid these things.

I think some people live in a fantasy. They don't want to make any judgements and they act as if everything is a utopia.

Sadly, this is not the case and sometimes you face people who will do anything to see you destroyed.

If you have a way to get information to save American lives that will not cause them any discomfort then say it.

People crying for these folks is sad. It has nothing to do with torture but politics.

I think the Bush administration went into Iraq because of politics and that was a mistake.

I think all these people crying about torture are playing politics and putting us in danger.

I'm an independent who thinks republican and democrat ideology is ruining this country.

When democrats get in office they want their pound of flesh from the republicans and the republicans do the same and we get screwed in the end.

Originally posted by drwizardphd

Originally posted by dooper
reply to post by drwizardphd

 

I'm not apologizing, but you're the one who isn't reading.

The US Constitution doesn't apply to the military, during the conduct of war, in a foreign nation. The military has it's own laws and rules, and when a soldier violates these rules he's not brought before a US court.

Constitutional rights protect all American citizens. International and Domestic law dictates what we can and can't do overseas. Torture is in direct violation of all 3 bodies of law.

The military's laws and rules state that you cannot torture. There is no legal justification for torture whatsoever.

I don't care if you don't think waterboarding is torture, because you have seen more extreme forms of torture. It's not really up to you, after all.

Waterboarding is a form of torture[1][2] that consists of immobilizing the victim on his or her back with the head inclined downwards, and then pouring water over the face and into the breathing passages. By forced suffocation and inhalation of water, the subject experiences drowning and is caused to believe they are about to die.[3] It is considered a form of torture by legal experts,[4][5] politicians, war veterans,[6][7] intelligence officials,[8] military judges,[9] and human rights organizations.[10][11]

Source

As you can see, it is considered torture almost universally by a range of experts, and is defined internationally as a form of torture.

Your right I cant define torture...... BUT the President and Congress can and DID. THEY (PRESIDENT AND CONGRESS) Authorized these methods. So your argument is wrong. Also Wikipedia isnt really a reliable scources considering EVERYONE can edit it to say waht they want it to.

reply to post by platosallegory

I just want to know how people would get information?

how do you know who has the information?

you know - so you know who to torture?

also - if all of the methods of torture you keep bringing up are just torture-light - why bother?

I mean - how effective could they really be? If you yourself so easily survived experiences much more difficult to bear than what they're put through - and you didn't run screaming into the night - what's the point?

I know you're pulling for REAL torture - so it's kind of a trick question

curious to hear your answer

reply to post by drwizardphd


Dont pretend that I do? I did two tours over in the middle east with the USMC im pretty well aware of ROE and things we were and werent allowed to do, so dont try and act like a hot shot, and be degrading my friend.

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights itself is not a document that is legally binding. Being a declaration, and not a binding treaty, the UDHR does not have any provisions for enforcement.

its a declaration not a law

[edit on 23-4-2009 by ManBehindTheMask]

i think that they should have to listen to celine dion for hours on end, and NO CANDY BEFORE BEDTIME!

i think then they would be begging us to let them tell us everything!!

i know i would... sheesh i cant listen to another car commercial with her in it!

edit: haha i tried to star my own post

[edit on 4/23/2009 by mahtoosacks]

reply to post by drwizardphd


Now you're getting a bit desperate. Now you're quoting Wiki as a source for determining whether or not waterboarding is torture.

And no, you're still wrong on the applications of laws concerning a military conducting combat operations on foreign territory.

During combat, the military has different rules than civilian law here in the US.

Here in the US, you have a concept of due process. In combat you have a process called shot-dead-on-sight. Now if you're correct, then how can that be?

What is so irritating, is the pacifists abhor waterboarding, and mistakenly try to circumvent the practice by misapplying law, both international and US law.

Hey, I really don't care.

We get nuked, or we get hit by a biological weapon, or a chemical weapon, you'll see the pendulum swing back real fast, and real hard.

I don't live in your big target cities or states. And I, and many around me don't rely on police for anything. So things go a bit sideways, I'll just be snug while the weenies will be shaking like a dog trying to pass a peach pit.

Demanding forceful steps to increase our intelligence!

Like . . . waterboarding!

Originally posted by poedxsoldiervet

Your right I cant define torture...... BUT the President and Congress can and DID. THEY (PRESIDENT AND CONGRESS) Authorized these methods. So your argument is wrong. Also Wikipedia isnt really a reliable scources considering EVERYONE can edit it to say waht they want it to.

I guess you didn't see the numerous sources corroborating the evidence presented in the wikipedia article. Or you chose to ignore them.

And the President and Congress authorized them illegally, I believe that is where this entire torture fiasco stems from. The illegal authorization of torture by President Bush and his administration, as well as members of Congress, US Courts and the CIA. They were all complicit in breaking Domestic as well as International law, and defying the Constitution.

I believe it was Bush who referred to the Constitution as a "goddamned piece of paper".

Originally posted by platosallegory
I looked at these memos and these things are not torture. I went through worse during basic training in the Army.

I remember doing drills in pouring rain for about 15-20 minutes. We were running in place and doing push ups. We also went on a field exercise in a storm and had to sleep on the side of the road in wet leaves and grass, It was so wet me and my battle buddy had to sleep back to back to avoid the wet ground.

Putting someones head under water for 20-40 seconds is nothing. This only happened to 3 or 4 terrorist and it led to some helpful information that stopped attacks in LA and New York.

Waterboarding, being put in a room with bugs or putting you in a cold room is not torture.

I had much worse happen to me during basic training. If you gave me a choice to be waterborded 20-40 seconds a day for 8 weeks vs basic training, you could waterboard me.

Think about what the Navy Seals go through. Here's some info:

Another important part of basic conditioning is drown-proofing. In this evolution, trainees must learn to swim with both their hands and their feet bound. To pass drown-proofing, trainees enter a 9-foot-deep pool and complete the following steps with their hands and feet tied:

bob for 5 minutes
float for 5 minutes
swim 100 meters
bob for 2 minutes
do some forward and backward flips
swim to the bottom of the pool and retrieve an object with their teeth
return to the surface and bob five more times

Another evolution is surf torture, also called "cold water conditioning."

science.howstuffworks.com...

To call the things in this memo torture is a danger to our country. This is not torture in any way, shape or form.

If liberals don't want waterboarding, loud music, bugs in room or any discomfort for terrorist that have information about future plans that could save lives, how will they get any information?

Say pretty please, can you give us some info? This is silly and dangerous.

I went through basic training at Ft. Jackson. Tank Hill specifically.
And then Jump School at Benning.
You're saying you went through worse and that these prisoners weren't tortured?

No... you didn't. And yes... they were.

reply to post by platosallegory


One phrase for you.

BULL [SNIP]!

Why? Because I went through a very tough and stringent basic training over 20 years ago. They did NOT make me think I was drowning. They did not starve me and did not blair heavy metal music at me for days on end.

Yes, I did have longer than 48 hour stretches of cleaning up the barracks only to have them destroyed by us only to have us strip and wax the floors and clean it up again only to have us destroy them. Yes I went through hours upon hours upon hours of standing in one position until someone fell in heat well above 90. Yes I went through a ton of crap.

But here's the kicker my friend. I VOLUNTEERED FOR IT! I KNEW WHAT I WAS GETTING INTO!

These people DID NOT volunteer for it. The really f'd up thing is that the majority of the people held AND STILL TORTURED were released because there was no evidence.

So, when you decide you want someone to make you feel like you are going to be drowned or when someone locks you into a small box with bugs when you have an abnormal fear of stinging bugs, maybe then and ONLY then can you come forward with a claim like this.

Because without that experience you are simlpy displaying your ignorance.

[edit on 23-4-2009 by dariousg]

Mod Edit: Profanity/Circumvention Of Censors – Please Review This Link.



[edit on 24-4-2009 by Gemwolf]

replied to the wrong person - my apologies

And don't anyone think you can't get good information out of someone using certain psychological techniques.

They'll spill their guts telling you everything.

Because unlike physical torture, psychological torture is something that no one want to endure again.

exactly - and well said

unfortunately for you - you just made a boatload of points for your opposition

[edit on 4/23/2009 by Spiramirabilis]

reply to post by Spiramirabilis


I never said this. And no worries thanks-)

[edit on 23-4-2009 by poedxsoldiervet]

reply to post by poedxsoldiervet


I know - I'm not paying attention

I corrected my post - I apologize

reply to post by Spiramirabilis

There's nothing wrong with stressing someone to reveal information they don't want to share. There's nothing wrong with fooling these people into telling what they know.

There's nothing wrong with psychological terror. Once you understand that uncertainty is one of humankind's most miserable conditions, can one take advantage of that when dealing with your enemies.

No blood - no foul.

Originally posted by poedxsoldiervet
reply to post by noangels

 

Hey howd you get my myspace? Do I know you?

No you dont know me my friend,and I wont tell anyone either.Its very easy to trace people online.Your a big dude,i will give you that!
Just be carefull about the militia anti NWO recruiting online,If i can find you within a couple of mins any one can.Peace