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Torture? I went through worse in basic training

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posted on Apr, 23 2009 @ 02:44 PM
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reply to post by platosallegory
 


But you could quit anytime couldn't you ?




posted on Apr, 23 2009 @ 02:45 PM
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Originally posted by drwizardphd

Originally posted by poedxsoldiervet


Not this type of "Torture" (which isnt really torture) Goverment Lawyers and congresional leader from both sides of the aisle said these methods were okay and had no problem with it. Now all of a sudden it has become a big issue. I am sorry I am not buying this crap that people are selling. its been going on since 2002 and recently it has become an issue. Does anyone else see a problem with this?


Yes, as your argument loses its ability to hold water you begin to reach for ever-harder-to-grasp points.

First you say it is not torture, when it clearly falls under both the U.S. and International definition of torture.

Then you say that government lawyers and congressional leaders had no problem with it. They are complicit and should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

Then you say that its been going on since 2002 and recently it has become a problem. That is because it was allowed to continue under a criminal administration.

Your entire argument has fallen apart. Torture is illegal, unjust, and inhumane. There is no reasonable defense for it.


Remeber what you have said. Now the CIA and Intell agencies are going to be lax doing there job for fear of retrubiton. The miltiary will not taking prisoners and if they do they will be re released. So now the enemy knows we have become afraid to do are jobs. And they will grow even more powerful? Hmm I wonder where we have heard this before Oh wait yes Jimmy Carter and Billy Clinton.... If I recall correctly what happen? oh thats right an embassey being taking over and planes falling out of the sky. Could choice there sir, will go ahead bring the troops home. Cause for sure they will need to be used on our own soil cause next time it wont be planes but dirty bombs.



posted on Apr, 23 2009 @ 02:47 PM
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Originally posted by poedxsoldiervet

Originally posted by drwizardphd

Originally posted by poedxsoldiervet


Not this type of "Torture" (which isnt really torture) Goverment Lawyers and congresional leader from both sides of the aisle said these methods were okay and had no problem with it. Now all of a sudden it has become a big issue. I am sorry I am not buying this crap that people are selling. its been going on since 2002 and recently it has become an issue. Does anyone else see a problem with this?


Yes, as your argument loses its ability to hold water you begin to reach for ever-harder-to-grasp points.

First you say it is not torture, when it clearly falls under both the U.S. and International definition of torture.

Then you say that government lawyers and congressional leaders had no problem with it. They are complicit and should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

Then you say that its been going on since 2002 and recently it has become a problem. That is because it was allowed to continue under a criminal administration.

Your entire argument has fallen apart. Torture is illegal, unjust, and inhumane. There is no reasonable defense for it.


Remeber what you have said. Now the CIA and Intell agencies are going to be lax doing there job for fear of retrubiton. The miltiary will not taking prisoners and if they do they will be re released. So now the enemy knows we have become afraid to do are jobs. And they will grow even more powerful? Hmm I wonder where we have heard this before Oh wait yes Jimmy Carter and Billy Clinton.... If I recall correctly what happen? oh thats right an embassey being taking over and planes falling out of the sky. Could choice there sir, will go ahead bring the troops home. Cause for sure they will need to be used on our own soil cause next time it wont be planes but dirty bombs.


This is, once again, pure fear mongering and propaganda.

You have taken this from "torture is okay" to "you guys want us to lay down our weapons". Where will your argument evolve next, once this turn gets destroyed?


Mod Edit: Big Quote – Please Review This Link.


[edit on 24-4-2009 by Gemwolf]



posted on Apr, 23 2009 @ 02:47 PM
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Originally posted by cautiouslypessimistic


That's my fault, I wasnt very clear in my response. It was a subtext to add to yours, not a challenge.


Ah, I see.

And you bring up a good point as well, torture is most definitely prohibited under the eighth amendment to our constitution.




The "essential predicate" is "that a punishment must not by its severity be degrading to human dignity," especially torture.


Source

So even if you disregard all international law, and domestic law, if you advocate torture, you are in direct opposition to the bill of rights and the laws our forefathers saw fit to fight and die for.



posted on Apr, 23 2009 @ 02:48 PM
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Originally posted by earthman4

Originally posted by poedxsoldiervet

Originally posted by earthman4
So far there are no military personel willing to get $15 an hour to get waterboarded. My point has been proven. Basic training gives the option to quit, torture does not. My country tortured a British citizen for 7 years and then found he was innocent. I am ashamed. Never again will we become our enemies.


Reread I said I would TAKE THAT OFFER>


Great, I found a masochist, I'll get you a sadist with money. maybe afterward you can tell us if it was torturous or not.



No problem.. I will again do what some of you choose not to. Oh and by the way Waterboarding, sleep dep, little food, cold rooms, bugs. I have already been through a few times. and hear is one to add. In Q-course I was buried alive with a little tube to breathe out as even more "torture training"

I will gladly do what you sir are afraid to do.

[edit on 23-4-2009 by poedxsoldiervet]



posted on Apr, 23 2009 @ 02:51 PM
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For one you havent changed my mind on anything. and two give me a way to fight this war, show me a better way that doesnt invlove America tucking her tail between her legs and running home. If you cannot then, for real whats your point.

We have a saying where I am from (cincinnati) Put (nut)up or Shut up



posted on Apr, 23 2009 @ 02:52 PM
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Sleep dep, malnurishment, temp depriviation, insects....these are known forms of brainwashing. It shows that you have been through them. Well played.

Fear is torturing people who are different from you. Fear is deciding that you get to force your will on other people.

Standing up and saying I oppose these things and I willl not bend on constitutional rights is courage my friend, and it's something you lack.



posted on Apr, 23 2009 @ 02:54 PM
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reply to post by poedxsoldiervet
 


Dude it isn't worth the arguement.

The worst discomfort most here can relate to is carpul tunnel.



posted on Apr, 23 2009 @ 02:56 PM
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Or standing up for my nation when no one else will, doing things that some people dont have the stomach to do, making sure that people who harm this great nation are dealt with severly. It all depends on how people look at. We do what you dont want to do, then you run behind the constition destort, and dare call me the a coward? Who has been brainwashed here?



posted on Apr, 23 2009 @ 02:57 PM
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Originally posted by poedxsoldiervet


For one you havent changed my mind on anything. and two give me a way to fight this war, show me a better way that doesnt invlove America tucking her tail between her legs and running home. If you cannot then, for real whats your point.

We have a saying where I am from (cincinnati) Put (nut)up or Shut up

I havent changed your mind, yet you admitted these things were unconstitutional, so you are, by your own admission ADVOCATING THE CIRCUMVENTION OF OUR CONSTITUITION. You should be courtmarshalled.

We are not in a war right now. What about that do you not understand?

Not torturing people is hardly tucking and running. Those brainwashed to see no other way, well, you guys will just have to live with yourselves.

lol, theres an old saying in tenesee, well, I know we have it in Texas, I'm sure it's in Tennessee, that says: Fool me once....shame...shame on......CANT GET FOOLED AGAIN.

Talk about putting up or shutting up, look in the mirror and take your own advice.

So what's my point? My point is, as Ive already stated, that YOU ARE SWORN TO UPHOLD AND PROTECT THE CONSTITUTION, YET YOU OPENLY ADVOCATE ITS CIRCUMVENTION.
How can you not see the hypocrisy?



posted on Apr, 23 2009 @ 02:57 PM
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reply to post by jd140
 



Thats prolly true.



Mod Note: One Line Post – Please Review This Link.


[edit on 24-4-2009 by Gemwolf]



posted on Apr, 23 2009 @ 02:59 PM
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reply to post by platosallegory
 


I suggest you try waterboarding yourself because its not sticking your head under water for a 30-40 seconds at a time. Water boarding makes you feel like your drowning and you cant breath. A bag is placed over you head so you can't see as your tied down to a surface. They then throw water over your face so it gets in your nose and your mouth. Your brain starts to play horrible tricks on you and you panic because you think you wont be able to breath.

I could care less if they torture terrorists but you have never had anything done to you that's like water boarding.



posted on Apr, 23 2009 @ 03:00 PM
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I hereby openly and firmly call you a coward. Anyone who swares to do one thing, then promptly does the opposite, is a coward.

You talk about defending this nation, I ant one single example of what this nation is being protected from? The constituion is being attacked from the inside, not the out.

Fighting in a place that IS NO THREAT TO US, THAT IS NOT ATTACKING us is not doing something that I dont want to do. Its doing something that I am SMART ENOUGH not to do.

Mod Edit: Please keep it civil!
Mod Note: Terms & Conditions Of Use – Please Review This Link.


[edit on 24-4-2009 by Gemwolf]



posted on Apr, 23 2009 @ 03:00 PM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Apr, 23 2009 @ 03:01 PM
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Originally posted by cautiouslypessimistic

Originally posted by poedxsoldiervet


For one you havent changed my mind on anything. and two give me a way to fight this war, show me a better way that doesnt invlove America tucking her tail between her legs and running home. If you cannot then, for real whats your point.

We have a saying where I am from (cincinnati) Put (nut)up or Shut up

I havent changed your mind, yet you admitted these things were unconstitutional, so you are, by your own admission ADVOCATING THE CIRCUMVENTION OF OUR CONSTITUITION. You should be courtmarshalled.

We are not in a war right now. What about that do you not understand?

Not torturing people is hardly tucking and running. Those brainwashed to see no other way, well, you guys will just have to live with yourselves.

lol, theres an old saying in tenesee, well, I know we have it in Texas, I'm sure it's in Tennessee, that says: Fool me once....shame...shame on......CANT GET FOOLED AGAIN.

Talk about putting up or shutting up, look in the mirror and take your own advice.

So what's my point? My point is, as Ive already stated, that YOU ARE SWORN TO UPHOLD AND PROTECT THE CONSTITUTION, YET YOU OPENLY ADVOCATE ITS CIRCUMVENTION.
How can you not see the hypocrisy?



I never circumvented any thing. you know what who cares, You should be thankful that for generations men and women like me have been willing to get there hands dirty so you can sleep tight at nite. Sometime I wish the boogeyman would come in here a bring the fight to our soil. Then people like you would beg for such harsh tactics. Cruel and Unsual punishment waterboarding is not. If its good enouhg to try out the war fighters ITS GOOD ENOUGH FOR THOSE PIGS



posted on Apr, 23 2009 @ 03:02 PM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Apr, 23 2009 @ 03:04 PM
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You didnt circumvent it, you ADVOCATE the circumvention of it.

I am very thankful for the generation that have actually fought for my freedom. You, son, are not part of any of those generation.


You are doubling back now-earlier you said that the 8th amendment DID outlaw waterboarding. Now you are saying the oppsite. Its tough to argue with someone who cant even stay on their own side


You can throw whatever cliche you want out there, doesnt change the fact that torture is unconstitutional, and you are advocating it.



posted on Apr, 23 2009 @ 03:06 PM
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Dude, a couple of push up in the rain isn't [SNIP]! NO WAY is what you went through even remotely similar to what these people are enduring.

I got an idea, why don't you come to Flint Michigan and allow me to water board you. I went through it. Even though I KNEW, I wouldn't drown and I KNEW, I would get through it. I freaked! It was an automatic response that I had no control over.

Understand that your basic training was just that... BASIC TRAINING! These people are trained and schooled in psyche warfare and know what they are doing. Unless you are highly trained and conditioned. They will have you in the fetal position crying for your mommy in the first 24 hours. I don't underestimate your will and desire, but I seriously believe you are underestimating them.

Mod Edit: Profanity/Circumvention Of Censors – Please Review This Link.



[edit on 24-4-2009 by Gemwolf]



posted on Apr, 23 2009 @ 03:07 PM
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No I am not doubling back. I did not say it outlawed waterboarding. I sayed I will give that to that the 8th admendment does outlaw cruel and unuuasl punishment. My stance has stayed the same.


Edit- Waterboarding is not cruel and unuesually

[edit on 23-4-2009 by poedxsoldiervet]



posted on Apr, 23 2009 @ 03:07 PM
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I think the problem is, what's the alternative?

If you do like many democrats want, no discomfort, how will you gather information to protect American lives?

No waterboarding, no loud music, no putting in a room with a bug or a cold room. How will you get information that's need to save American lives?

Will you say pretty please mr. terrorist, tell us your plans?

After 9/11 we didn't know what may be coming.

I just want to know how people would get information?

You know have The Taliban about to takeover Pakistan that has Nuclear weapons and the left is crying about pouring water on their heads and putting terrorist in room with bugs.

Some on the left would rather be liked then save American lives.



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