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Socialism?

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posted on Apr, 22 2009 @ 02:08 AM
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I suppose this belongs here? In the question of why democratic socialism would be detrimental to us or U.S. I want to know why it is that places like France, Sweden, and others look to be great and fairly free places to live? Just as free or more so as the U.S. Because when you break it down, we in the U.S. are not THAT free! With work licenses, income tax, the Patriot Act, Homeland Security, and a host of others like forced immunization, social security, being branded a felon for crimes that aren't crime in many other countries of course pertaining to marijuana, and other drug use.

I will say I believe a true republic to be the best political system, but why would democratic socialism be as bad as it's portrayed, when the citizens in France, Sweden, Hungary, Finland or Poland, are far from oppressed and appear very prosperous and well taken care of?

I work for a French owned company and in speaking with many French people, I find out that they have free health care, 35 hour work week, free education, and when you start your job you get 6 weeks vacation! I must admit I feel a little jealous, many people have called Americans lazy, but we work so much that we miss out on a lot of life.

There has got to be a better way, it may not be socialism, but it sure isn't what we have now.




posted on Apr, 22 2009 @ 02:37 AM
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Socialism is a stepping-stone to totalitarianism.

It is based on lies, and requires conditions, such as increased surveillace and decreased privacy.

It is also mostly reactionary and not based on any long-term planning. It assumes that all people are equal and deserve equal pay (eg: the people deserve to be dirt-poor while the state hordes the gold).



posted on Apr, 22 2009 @ 02:51 AM
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reply to post by vcwxvwligen
 


I can understand that. But why hasn't it happened to any great extant in any of the countries I listed? Are their politicians less corrupt than ours? Doubtful, so what is keeping them in place?

And ignorant people are the stepping stone to totalitarianism, not any type of democratic government. It is the people that let themselve become dumbed down and gleefully receive oppression. I'll admit, our media does a great deal of keeping us ignorant and blind folded, but we always had the right to take off that blindfold.

It all comes down to laziness and complacency, which we are both, in the mental sense of laziness I mean.

Many say we have been hoodwinked by our government, but it is we that let that happen. If we want this country to be a true republic it is up to us, and I don't think we are up to it. There are too many people who have too many views of what freedom is.

We are a stubborn people, we do not like to admit when we have been cheated, but this is the only way for change I believe. We need to stop blaming the government and start taking account of what WE have let happen to us.



posted on Apr, 22 2009 @ 02:58 AM
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None of these countries have a socialist government per se. They have capitalist economies, and are more "center-left" than "hard left."

If you want true socialism, look to communist countries like Cuba, the former Soviet Union, Vietnam and North Korea. Look how average people live a piss-poor existence, and are forced to engage in propaganda and other forms of mind control.



posted on Apr, 22 2009 @ 03:08 AM
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reply to post by vcwxvwligen
 


So it's safe to say that having a Socialist structure with a capitalist economy is not a bad system? I completely agree with you, and may have misinterpreted what I meant about socialism. But Isn't what this country is leaning toward is closer to what the countries I listed? And if so why the outrage?



posted on Apr, 22 2009 @ 03:21 AM
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The NWO requires a socialist-type totalitarian setup.

Yes, governments are buying up private companies. Some companies are 80% owned by the US government, which is technically fascism. Some people say that land ownership in the US is an illusion.

The American standard of living would greatly decrease under an overtly socialist system. Look at how the bailouts are affecting the US economy already. The value of the dollar has fallen again, and manufacturing jobs are going to other countries. The stock market is sorta bouncing back, but whom does that really benefit except foreign investors?

I'm sure you've noticed that thing called the USA PATRIOT Act, as well as all of the CCTV cameras. In England, things are even more out of hand: the police are actually asking people to look through their neighbors' trash. These are not the ills of capitalism, but the two countries experimenting with socialism.

Socialism is also built on cults of personality. Why did Barack Obama get elected, besides the fact that hundreds of millions of dollars were spent to buy out Hollywood actors?


[edit on 22-4-2009 by vcwxvwligen]



posted on Apr, 22 2009 @ 03:38 AM
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reply to post by vcwxvwligen
 


Like Joseph Stalin, and Ghandi...The cult of personality...the cult of personality. Like Mussolini, and Kennedy! The cult of personality, the cult of personality..



posted on Apr, 22 2009 @ 04:17 AM
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Originally posted by gnosis111
I work for a French owned company and in speaking with many French people, I find out that they have free health care, 35 hour work week, free education, and when you start your job you get 6 weeks vacation! I must admit I feel a little jealous, many people have called Americans lazy, but we work so much that we miss out on a lot of life.

Free health care and free education? Don't the doctors and surgeons and teachers object to working for free? How can they support themselves while providing all these so-called free services? Isn't socialism a little unfair to those having to be forced to provide (or pay for) all those so-called free services? Tell ya what, add a free apartment, food, a car, and some free pocket money to that socialist deal, and you can sign me up.


[edit on 22-4-2009 by Divinorumus]



posted on Apr, 22 2009 @ 02:54 PM
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reply to post by Divinorumus
 


When it comes to health care I have no problem providing it for others. There are too many children going without it and if their parents get some, well at least I know I am helping children and the people in my family that can not afford it. No one I know can afford health care outright unless provided by an employer, and even that is not always the case nor is it always good coverage. The same goes for education. I was never privilege to it because we couldn't afford it. I suppose I could go now, but I am making more than most college grads anyway.

Your statement represents the American mindset perfectly, "If I am giving others 'something' I want EVERYTHING"!



posted on Apr, 22 2009 @ 03:06 PM
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After visiting Stockholm on holiday I'd go live there in a heartbeat, if I could.

Couldn't find nicer people anywhere, everyone is happy and content.

Socialism is NOT Communism, nor is it a Dictatorship.

Consider this...




posted on Apr, 22 2009 @ 03:31 PM
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reply to post by weedwhacker
 


Nice vid weedwhacker. Yes I believe there are many socialist policies that would do great to help this country. I mean we are almost there anyway. If we could just get health care and education!!



posted on Apr, 22 2009 @ 03:41 PM
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Originally posted by gnosis111
I suppose this belongs here? In the question of why democratic socialism would be detrimental to us or U.S. I want to know why it is that places like France, Sweden, and others look to be great and fairly free places to live?


Those countries are not socialist..

The reason Americans think this is because of propaganda.

France is a democratic republic. The only difference in rights between the US and France is the widespread right to own guns.. and the patriot act.

While the US uses much of its taxpayer money to keep its empire in check.. Countries with social policies like France, Uk, Sweden, Norway, Ireland etc etc use the equivalent to look after their societies by giving them housing, college education, healthcare, allowances etc etc should they need them.

Apart from the Uk, the people in the rest of the EU countries with social policies have more freedoms and an awful lot less surveillance than those in the US.

Anything else you hear in the US media is propaganda.. plain and simple.


Socialism is a stepping-stone to totalitarianism.


Yes, that is true, but these countries are not socialist.. they have social policies.

If you have ever been to France, you will see the people are generally healthier, wealthier and happier than those in the US.. and yes, I have spent a lot of time in both countries so i can give an educated, informed opinion.

Norway, Sweden, finland etc are the most "Socialist" democratic monarchy/republics in Europe and just happen to be close to the wealthiest countries in the world per capita and have the highest standards of living in the world.. as well as the best educations and healthcare.. and also happen to be the least hit by the global recession.


Which system works better for the people?

Outright democratic capitalism.. everyone for themselves?

Or democratic nations with social policies?

One is boom bust, makes huge & quick economic advancements but is prone to big recessions and cutthroat for its citizens.

The other advances slightly slower, rarely goes bust and never leaves any citizen behind.

It comes down to what you are into I suppose.. tbh, i would prefer the social policies.



posted on Apr, 22 2009 @ 03:44 PM
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reply to post by Dermo
 


Thank you for that clarification. It really helped to make a little more sense of it all.



posted on Apr, 22 2009 @ 05:48 PM
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Originally posted by gnosis111
Your statement represents the American mindset perfectly ...

Thank you, I take that as a compliment.

Socialism is okay, so long as it's optional, and those that don't want or need it can totally opt out and pay their own way through life. I can understand why some would want socialism, but please, don't try to force it upon everyone, not everyone needs or wants it. Find a way to make it work without me!!! That's all I ask .. make it OPTIONAL and we won't have any problems. Okay? Okay!

One thing you should realize too is that there are a LOT of deadbeats here in the US. They live off this thing called welfare and social security. Socialism would bankrupt this nation for sure. Heck, even without all that socialism, we're already on the brink of bankruptcy as a nation. What we don't need is a government telling us what we can or can't afford, while they reach around to pick our pockets, involuntarily. That's just immoral and totally wrong, forcing others to conform and participate in others belief systems and desires. Wrong wrong wrong.



posted on Apr, 22 2009 @ 06:38 PM
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reply to post by Divinorumus
 


I'm not forcing anything, just asking questions. And welfare and SS IS socialism! But no one can answer my questions with any knowledge, my question was WHY is the quality of living BETTER in Sweden and France than it is here? When as a previous poster said, they have Socialist policies? Not a socialist economy.


All Americans want is a free ride, I don't see why we get all up in arms about socialism. We are slaves already, like it or not.



posted on Apr, 22 2009 @ 06:47 PM
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Very well said gnosis.

Capitalism is too vulnerable to corruption, there is no use in fixing a flawed system. If we can muck it up once we can definately do it again.

Socialism is the economic system of the future, we want to move away from self gain and move towards a system that promotes sharing the wealth. Our main goal should be to get rid of the economic classes and we wont be able to do that with capitalism. Socialism will provide all members of society with equal basic needs like healthcare and education, and it doesnt restrict freedoms by trying to limit government control to one person.



posted on Apr, 22 2009 @ 07:06 PM
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reply to post by caballero
 


Thank you. I believe we are going to see a revolution of sorts in the next 5 years. And this could very well be the new way. I think as long as we the people become smarter on this issue and become active as well, no system can overcome us. Our system has done all it can and has nearly succeeded in taking away our will to act against it, but dissent is growing and I'm loving it!



posted on Apr, 22 2009 @ 07:20 PM
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Originally posted by gnosis111
But no one can answer my questions with any knowledge, my question was WHY is the quality of living BETTER in Sweden and France than it is here?

Well, things might seem okay now, but what is the state of their current national budget/debt? And, what is it forecasted to be like 30 years down this socialist road?

AND, is the quality of life really that much better over there? You don't need socialism to obtain a great quality of life, you just need more money if that is what one deems necessary for a higher quality of life. Socialism is not the only answer nor solution.

AND, just how great is that health care system over there? Does everyone that's 89 years old that could use a new heart transplant so they can live maybe another 10 years get one? In America, you can get that new heart, if you personally have the bucks to pay for it. In a socialist system, who determines who gets those donated hearts when the highest bidder can't buy one? Are you SOL, even if you have saved more money for one than anyone else?

I value freedom a lot more than any so-called higher quality of life. Just what is meant by higher quality of life anyhow? Isn't that a subjective thang that can vary from person to person? What you may think is a higher quality of life may not be what I would call a higher quality of life. Personally, I don't want anyone telling me what's best or higher quality for me, I prefer to decide that for myself, thank you.

Anyhow, more power to the socialists out there .. so long as participation in your ideals remains voluntary. I have no desire to force my beliefs and way of life upon anyone else, and I sure hope the socialist can learn to respect that and LEAVE ME ALONE and not force their beliefs and way of life upon me. This idea that everything must be one way and one way only is not right. Socialism must be voluntary! Those that want it, go for it, but leave those that don't need or want it alone, please .. as we do not need any more wars upon Earth.



posted on Apr, 23 2009 @ 01:46 AM
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reply to post by Divinorumus
 


I'll say again, I am only questioning, I do not advocate socialism, but I am able to argue the point of it and any other system with enough knowledge. I do not think money makes for a higher quality of life, but that is what is jammed down our throats from birth, on TV, music, books, and our media definitely is the prime culprit.

I think a higher quality of life is a life filled with love and security of mind. And it appears that without the worries of how your going to pay for school, medical, dental, or vision, it does seem like it would take the edge off.

And you misunderstand what freedom is if you think that is what we have in America. Just because I live in a subdivision I can't do whatever I want on my own property, just because of some homeowners association. Millions of children will never see college because their parents can't afford it and if they finance it it takes many years to pay off your debt, which makes you a slave to the education system, which is controlled by the government which makes you a slave to the government, monetarily speaking.

I am a felon for a crime I did not commit, I know it's cliche to say that but it's true. I've payed a debt that wasn't mine and incur forfeiture of some of my "freedoms" still. All because I couldn't afford a real attorney.

So my faith in a capitalist society is grim, but you live and learn and that is why I joined this site, so I can learn about many different ways and systems, find the right one for me and mine and do what I can to achieve it. Or at least advocate it.

I understand where you sit and it is not wrong, it is your way, I am just not sure it's my way.




posted on Apr, 23 2009 @ 06:10 AM
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I found this funny clips from the Daily Show with Jon Stewart about socialism and Sweden.

America with higher taxes are becoming the new Sweden!

The Daily Show - The Stockholm Syndrome part 1 & 2












Edit: I messed up how to insert Youtube Videos




[edit on 23-4-2009 by Chevalerous]



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