Hell is a Conspircacy Theory- Proved False, From The Bible

reply to post by Wehali


Thanks for your post Wehali- it is very interesting and brings up a whole list of questions to my mind. I love this forum because it presents so many different points of view. I trust that you are telling the truth and I'm sure your experience is very real. Personally I base my understanding of this world on the Bible and the Bible says very different things about Jesus and Hell. But maybe both your experience and the Bible are correct somehow...I'm smart enough to know that I don't have all the answers!

Ok here are a few questions. If Jesus was not God, then how would you explain these passages?

John 1:1 makes that crystal clear that Jesus was God in the flesh "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Why would John say that The word was God if Jesus was only a son of God? Also In John 8:58 Jesus himself states "Before Abraham was born, I am!" God commonly referred to himself as "I am" in the old Testament, so essentially Jesus is saying he is God in this passage. This was so shocking to the Jews that after he said this, they wanted to stone him.

If Jesus were only a son of God like you and I then what about John 3:16, which talks about God's one and only son- it doesn't say anything about one of many sons? Jesus is also specifically called God in these verses: John 8:58, 2 Peter 1:1, Titus 2:13. Plus Jesus had the power to forgive sins on Earth (Mark 2:10) If everyone is a son of God then can everyone forgive sins on Earth?

I think these verses would have to be overlooked to believe that Jesus was not God. I would say that you are correct in one sense though- we all can become sons of God through a kind of adoption process where we are accepted as God's sons, but I think the Bible makes it clear that Jesus is special.

Now about Hell- if what you are saying is correct that we have already chosen Heaven or Hell as our home and we are only living here on this planet to go through experiences to further our understanding of good and evil, then why does Jesus tell us to "Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to." (Luke 13:24) He says this in response to someone asking him "Are only a few people going to be saved?"

Jesus also warns about Eternal Fire in Matthew 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." If we have already chosen to be in Heaven then how do you explain these warnings?

And about the multiple incarnations- what about Hebrews 9:27? It says "Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment..." This says man dies once and then faces judgment, not dies over and over again. So how can we be reincarnated? Do we face multiple judgements?

[edit on 23-4-2009 by Virtruvious]

[edit on 23-4-2009 by Virtruvious]

reply to post by LeoVirgo


Hello fellow Leo! Wow great points about the negative energies associated with killings and blood. I haven't thought about that before. I'm not sure why God requires blood for forgiveness, but it appears this is the case.

See Hebrews 9:22 "In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness."

Any thoughts?

If you have true Love for God & the Scripture REMEMBER

Proverbs 3:5-6 says, “Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean NOT on your own understanding, and he will make your paths straight.”


A few months ago I had come to a very similiar conclusion as Blue-Jays that we wont go to Heaven or Hell until the 1000yrs is up & THEN we are all Judged.

But then, I ran into REV 21 which Clearly states:

"Then I saw a NEW HEAVEN and aNEW EARTH. For the 1st heaven & 1st earth had PASSED AWAY."

Now, the title is called: THE NEW JERUSALEM.
Which means this CURRENT EARTH & CURRENT HEAVEN will Merge into our NEW HEAVEN!!
Which also means that YES---the Life on EARTH (Right NOW) as we know it WILL be DESTROYED. It has to as Wicked as it has become here on Earth.
Now for those who think very Logically, I ask you to Expand your mind & even ask God to help you NOT to LEAN on your OWN UNDERSTANDING HERE.
Just because this current Earth WILL be Destroyed--It DOES NOTmean it will be physically OBLITERATED!! It only means our life as we know it NOW will be Destroyed here on Earth.
Just like some of the ancient civilizations who have stated this same thing is in the Bible. (EX: Hope Indians--state we will have to leave this materialistic life in order to Prosper in the NEXT earth/heaven) We will ALL have to make a Choice NOW in order to have a Better FUTURE.

I hope this makes some Sence to some people

[edit on 23-4-2009 by Inspiration1911]

[edit on 23-4-2009 by Inspiration1911]

reply to post by Virtruvious


I dont take the Bible to be a divine word. I use the foundation that material things are not needed by God, for God.

When I see a need of blood, even god enjoying the savor of blood.....I see red flags. For yrs this is what I excepted, the blood for my sins....a journey on a less traveled path shown me different.


The energy of the Holy Spirit submerges into the light from the dark, taking form. This is where the stories of life in the blood comes from and the need for sacrificing the life/blood for sins. I believe there is truth for understanding the origins of the physical universe....but man took that understanding and made it something its not...such as a demand of God.

I accept Jesus made a humble offering of his flesh life, having faith that those actions kept him righteous and holy. I dont accept any forced sacrifice is ever needed. God is not forceful, from my experiences....very patient and merciful and walks with us, not in front or behind. I think the idea of God demands blood letting for sins has made many people stop searching thinking they have absolute truth. I think this is dangerous. I think the idea of blood for sins is a dark trick of the flesh mind (some call this satan). I think it actually takes away the true nature of God and the true mightiness that is.

Just opinions with no absolutes
LV



[edit on 23-4-2009 by LeoVirgo]

reply to post by LeoVirgo


Ah I see...well I guess that's where you and I see things differently. I take the Bible as the word of God for many reasons. I have personally seen people's lives completely change after following the Bible's teachings and I've personally seen things that were impossible for me to fix on my own completly change when I followed the bible and prayed to God for help. If it weren't from God I don't think that it could change people's lives so powerfully.

The Bible itself claims to be "God breathed" or in other words from the very mouth of God (2 Timothy 3:16) It gives us a clear standard of good and evil and teaches us about God's character. I see red flags when people present ideas that they cannot back up with scripture.

So if you don't believe that the Bible is God's word, then how do you determine what is right and wrong? Do you believe parts of the bible are accurate and parts have been altered? Is something else more accurate? Or is truth just relative to each person?

Originally posted by Inspiration1911
If you have true Love for God & the Scripture REMEMBER

Proverbs 3:5-6 says, “Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean NOT on your own understanding, and he will make your paths straight.”

Proverbs 8

1 Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?

2She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths.

3She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors.

4Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man.

5O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart.

6Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips shall be right things.

7For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips.

8All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.

9They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.

10Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold.

11For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it.

Just because it says not "your own understanding" doesn't mean you can't understand and so forth, quite the opposite. It's about WHERE you get your understandings from, men or god.

Justice would imply injustice which again would have to be created by god or negate gods omniscience.


At the end of the day there are but 3 options, 1 there is no god and we have to find a way to explain the existence of everything.

2 There is but one god that created everything, then we have to accept that everything means literally all that there is,was or will ever be, implying that there is noting that god is not.

3 There must be more/something other than god which means that god is not the creator of all that there is and is no longer a god in the Abrahamic sense.


If I didnt read OPTION #2 Correctly I would have choosen that option. Except--that God DID Create everything DOES NOT MEAN he =EVERYTHING.

Think about it this way...If MAN has the ability to CLONE a Human-Being or any other ENTITY (which he does)---Does that mean GOD Literally CREATED that CLONE??

NO, it just means that MAN COPIED what GOD made.

The SAME thing with HELL. So NO--GOD DID NOT Literally CREATE HELL. He only allowed Satan TO--CREATE the presence of hell's characteristics when he threw him into that Bottomless PIT.

There is ALWAYS a Balance with GOD. He only ALLOWS these bad things to happen here on Earth & HELL. Nothing happens without his knowledge---but dont think he dosent care either, he just has to GIVE HUMANITY a Chance to Learn & futher our SPIRITUAL EDUCATION while were here.

But in the END, he will Destroy the "OLD" ways of living; on EARTH & HELL

I hate to break the mould! But remember. The Bible is just a book. There's no proof that God and or Jesus was and is real. I've never seen, heard, or smelt God. But I have seen a UFO!!! So in my opinion, UFO's are real but God and the 10 apostrophies? Naw!!!!!!!

reply to post by badmedia


Yes, you are right. Men have to lean on the understanding of what God & the SCRIPTURE says....but the problem is when people only incorporate their own human-logic into the MEANING of the Bible's scripture.

2 different things here. Human logic has to be Set aside & their has to become a BALANCE of that understanding when reading the Scripture.

Mind & Heart has to become totally OPEN....which means leaving your everyday human-logic.

reply to post by Inspiration1911

The SAME thing with HELL. So NO--GOD DID NOT Literally CREATE HELL. He only allowed Satan TO--CREATE the presence of hell's characteristics when he threw him into that Bottomless PIT.

Did we not learn anything from the opening posts?

A quick recap of the more specific Greek & Hebrew

Sheol/Hades=Common Grave of Mankind (nothing is alive in this place)

Gehenna/Lake of Fire=Second Death or permanent non-existence. (nothing is alive in this place)

Tartarus = separation from God, for Spirits only(demons), a condition.
(all are alive in this place)

Abyss/Bottomless Pit = A Jail strictly for Satan and his demons.
(all are alive, but inactive in this place)

This is why if you translate "Hell" in place of any of these, people get really confused. I would be too, but now that I have done the research it all makes sense.

Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
reply to post by Inspiration1911

 

The SAME thing with HELL. So NO--GOD DID NOT Literally CREATE HELL. He only allowed Satan TO--CREATE the presence of hell's characteristics when he threw him into that Bottomless PIT.

Did we not learn anything from the opening posts?

A quick recap of the more specific Greek & Hebrew

Sheol/Hades=Common Grave of Mankind (nothing is alive in this place)

Gehenna/Lake of Fire=Second Death or permanent non-existence. (nothing is alive in this place)

Tartarus = separation from God, for Spirits only(demons), a condition.
(all are alive in this place)

Abyss/Bottomless Pit = A Jail strictly for Satan and his demons.
(all are alive, but inactive in this place)

This is why if you translate "Hell" in place of any of these, people get really confused. I would be too, but now that I have done the research it all makes sense.

why do you think its called THE NEW JERUSALEM?
That is YOUR understanding from the sripture YET you still have not commented on the FACT that it states NEW HEAVEN & NEW EARTH.

THE NEW JERUSALEM. REV 21~~
Which means this CURRENT EARTH & CURRENT HEAVEN will Merge into our NEW HEAVEN!!

If you dont answer its because you have NOTHING to PROVE against my LAST POST.
I tried to relate to you by showing I once came up with that wrong conclusion.....But some people dont know when to admit when their wrong.

reply to post by Virtruvious


It is amazing what hope does to us.

You say it was because of the Bible and because of God....I say you can find those same powerful energies within many books and beliefs. The fact that people think all the answers are within one book fills the ego self and the self that is a wondering soul. It actually is stagnating. But yet, seems to suplement most nicely with enough to get by.

I say be careful not to limit the ruler and dont confuss the ruler with the true one.

Just because truth is in the Bible...doesnt make them all truths about God. ALot of the OT truths are truths about the ruler...not the divine one.

People believe WITHOUT questions BECAUSE the Bible tells them to do so...the Bible talks about human reasoning like it wasnt meant to be or is something that cant be relied apone. I say that is rubbish...we are perfect as long as we dont live by the flesh. I dont feel God meant to leave answers in a book....what purpose would Thee have by doing this if we are here to experience and figure our inner most self out?

But there are wise things in the book...most of all by Jesus. I dont think Jesus knew of himself as a sacrifice, but yet this is what the masses were seeking and 'hoping' for.

We so bad want to think the answers are in a book...directly from God. That would mean though that somewhere something went wrong....and I dont believe that either. We want excuses for why life sucks sometimes and is unfair....when that is just the law of cause and effect in a physical world. Our hearts are being hardened. We are a part of a process of sifting light and dark.

I too have experienced incredible things....and saw changes in people...but mine have nothing to do with the Bible. The mind is a powerful thing. If we began as thoughts to God, and we create thoughts ourselves....then who knows what is really happening...we could be creating a whole world or more. I think staying humbled is the best way to live....not ever thinking all the answers will be found.

I think Gods' template of answers lays in the nature of the world. The nature of the world shows recycling and cause and effect. Wind doesnt act at a will...but an order. I feel God works the same way. Psychology has proven that people are dreamers and we tend to believe what we are in need of. But if the Bible says not to listen to your own understandings, then people wont get past the first road sign. I wonder why we have logic and reasoning, then a book that says, dont listen to yourself. I choose to believe now that God leaves us with our environments and logical minds for a reason. To me it makes more sense that God made us to where we dont need a book of material gain and that Thee left us with everything we need in ourselves and nature. Why would God put his word in something that can be destroyed or changed?

If God was REALLY to leave a book that was divine....it would be simple, consistent, unmistakable. Another issue with the Bible is that is sets the world up for war over a special land. I dont feel God wants a special land because Thee doenst need a land. The Bible sets a scene of separations but yet Jesus is in the background saying love not only your neighbor but also your enemy.

When we are humbled the divine nature becomes us....our will becomes an order.

Just because the Bible has shown you how people can change from it...doesnt make it divine friend. Books and beliefs can change people, the bible is not the first nor the last to be credited of such things.

My best to you and yours
LV

reply to post by Inspiration1911


I answered you already with this

reply to post by Blue_Jay33


Anybody who thinks God has to destroy the entire physical heavens and then recreate them again, really doesn't understand the bible at all. Not to mention the time that would take. Sorry, it is, what it is.

The new heavens are created symbolically, not physically when Revelation chapter 12 happens, because the earth is still here. And it is waiting for the same thing to happen to it, as we prey for in the model prayer
Matt. 6 verse 10
Your kingdom come, Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
It's talking about the current earth and the current heavens

The "New" part in the bible is talking about a new Theocratic Kingdom
We always talk about the NWO on ATS, well there is the NWO that is bad and that is evil and backed by Satan, but it will be wiped out, and then there is the NWO from God which will be very good.

To go any further on this is off topic and a derailing of the thread so I will stop now. Make a new thread if you feel so strongly about this subject.

Symbolically? You have that reversed. If you believe main Scripture points to be Symbolic--then whats the POINT of believing in any of it?

The Scripture is NOT ALL symbolic.... THY Kingdom COME, thy will be DONE on EARTH as it IS IN HEAVEN.--That is quite Literal my friend.

You also state "It's talking about the current earth and the current heavens"

If that were true, then why does it say it will be COME & be DONE??

If we were in current Earth & current Heaven they why arent we DONE WITH ALREADY??

This is ALL related to HELL--because once 1 figures out that When earth & heaven are DONE so will HELL/Sheol/Hades/Gehenna/Tartarus/Abyss/bottomlesspit~~~~~
Or whatever you choose to call it.
They ALL have the SAME TIME FRAME.

[edit on 23-4-2009 by Inspiration1911]

reply to post by Inspiration1911


The Kingdom is literal, yes I agree, but you seem totally fixated that for this New Kingdom to come, the current physical heavens and earth must face a literal destruction that totally destroys them.
God just needs to remove the systems that are ruining this earth, the religious, political, commercial, military. He gets rid of those, and evicts the bad people from the planet to a state of nothingness/non-existence.Then jails Satan & his Demon in the Abyss
Then he puts Jesus Christ in charge of this planet getting him to restore it and resurrect the dead in sheol & hades.

That's what extensive years of study of the bible has taught me.

reply to post by LeoVirgo


Hey Leo thanks for your thoughts. I really appreciate your detailed response- it helps me to see things from another viewpoint which is always beneficial. I see where you are coming from and you make a lot of sense. I think you are right when you say humility is a big key. I've always tried to keep an open mind about things and not think that I have all the answers or that things have to be one way. I like this forum because I can learn from others and gain insight into other people's views and findings. It makes me question things that I believe and ultimately I think that everything should be questioned. People shouldn't blindly follow Christianity or the Bible. One's faith should be able to stand up against everything in this world or it's not genuine. Science should explain how God created the world and if there is a conflict then one side is wrong- the science or the religion. So far I've found that the Christian viewpoint makes the most sense to me.

But it does seem like there is a general mistrust of the Bible and all I'm saying is that I choose to believe that God gave us the Bible to help us know about him and get closer to him. But you are right I suppose there could be many other ways in which people learn about God. People tend to come up with excuses on why they don't agree with the Bible rather than simply accepting it and following it because that means they must submit themselves to another authority- God's authority. God demands our love and devotion and that is too much for some- they want to be their own God.

But I'll keep reading and learning and evaluating and who knows maybe one day I'll come to the same conclusions as yourself.

All the Best.

All, if HELL is not for real...what's the point?

Did the Lord Jesus Christ DIE for sinners for NOTHING?

Doesn't add up to OT? And math is what I do.....

Help OT out here?

Cya! OT

PS: How do I explain.... Doctor Luke, when he observed..."In the afterlife, where he was in constant torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus by his side."

Probably another RE-WRITTEN THING FROM MAN, huh?

CAUSE THE OMNI-POTENT DIETY COULDN'T PRESERVE HIS MESSAGE HUH?

Curious?????????????

Originally posted by Blue_Jay33

Did we not learn anything from the opening posts?

A quick recap of the more specific Greek & Hebrew

Sheol/Hades=Common Grave of Mankind (nothing is alive in this place)

Gehenna/Lake of Fire=Second Death or permanent non-existence. (nothing is alive in this place)

Tartarus = separation from God, for Spirits only(demons), a condition.
(all are alive in this place)

Abyss/Bottomless Pit = A Jail strictly for Satan and his demons.
(all are alive, but inactive in this place)

This is why if you translate "Hell" in place of any of these, people get really confused. I would be too, but now that I have done the research it all makes sense.

I've learned from the opening posts, that you are quite capable of providing us with some sort of encyclopedia definitions, then tossed in your own personal interpretations and labeled it a conspiracy.

So far three or four witnesses have stepped forward with personal testimony and according to the Bible it becomes valid testimony after only two witnesses. If you factor in the testimony of every single person who has had either NDE"s or even OOBE's - your interpretations and ideologies just got blowed out of the water.

Your interpretation of what you "think" hell is or isn't compared to the thousands, possibly millions of people who actually got to take a little looksie on the other side seems a bit off balance.

Real testimony is much more powerful than an interpretation, but I do enjoy reading your posts.

reply to post by Blue_Jay33


Considering that you are what society calls a jehovah witness. Let me be direct and ask, Those who do not accept the Watchtower society as the voice of jehovah, are condemned to be annihilated in the second death. correct?

The bible is a story book which some people, unfortunately, believe to be true. However, like all good stories there is some factual hooks. For example Jesus did exist and was crucified for being an agitator by the Romans. Let's face it all occupying forces in recent history will execute people that cause them grief!!!