Hell is a Conspircacy Theory- Proved False, From The Bible

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posted on Jun, 29 2009 @ 04:42 AM
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Originally posted by Locoman8
reply to post by Imago Dei
 


Half of ATS is full of misinformation and lies but there's enough of a convincing argument to keep it going. Take the UFO forums for instance. How is it real if the things haven't come down and been caught on network television abducting people? Well, some are convinced enough by a little white dot moving across the sky. The bible, due to a wide variety of translations and mistranslations, can become whatever you want it to become with the right twisting of the words. The topic is debated. Simple as that. As far as the OP goes, he gave a literal meaning of things. Simple concept of what words mean. Hebrew sheol, Greek hades both mean death or grave. All bibles with the word "hell" in place of these two words should replace the pagan word "hell" with proper english translations. Greek tartarus should translate to "prison" or "abyss" as proper english translations. Greek Gehenna should translate "valley of Hinnom" or "refuse pile" for english translation. The Lake of Fire is mentioned by name as the "lake of fire" or "second death." Easy as that. No need for the word "hell." You take this word out of the bible and put in the right english replacements for the hebrew and greek, you get an entirely different outlook... even from your point of view. How is that worthy of being trashed as a plausable thread with undeniable evidence?


I have a copy of the new testament translated into English. Im not sure if you know this, or to clarify, accept that the original Hebrew and Greek texts are divinely inspired by God, there is a mathmatical pattern through every book and chapter that has been irrefutebaly proven. If you change one word and its meaning you prevert the whole thing, and God warned severly against doing this.

Ivan Panin made this discovery, He states that he Old testament is quite well pereserved in the English translation, and he spent 50 years of his life restoring the English translation of teh NEw Testament to an exact translation of the original Greek. I know how to read in English and I know what words mean in English, I dont have to refer to the greek and hebrew (although I do have a concordance and do so from time to time). I am losing nothing of the meaning reading the english. I have refuted earlier in this thread how anniahlists use greek and hebrew words to push their distorted beliefs.

Try reading my refuteation some time. At the very least you need to be informed why people do not accept what you believe, because there are people who are well informed as to why you wrongly believe what you believe, they know why you believe it based solely on what you have been taught, and they abley refute it, and when people ignore it, then the only thing left to do is mock you in your mockery of the word of God. Im not saying God would necessarily condone that, but he does say God will not be mocked and he does say he laughs at your calamity.

And I tire with petty insult and innuendo from the knockers, so I am simply joining in with the same nonsense. This thread has never been a reasoned discussion on scripure, it has been an us verses them mentality from start to finish, and that was it's intent.

I'm dissapointed the original poster didnt have the honestly to state that he is a Jehovahs Witness though. Instead he cloaks his beliefs and uses them to invent a non existent conspiracy against true believers of the word of God, AKA Christians. There's your conspriacy folks, Be warned when they come a knocking on your door in the near future, and don't even enter into a discussion with them.






[edit on 29-6-2009 by Imago Dei]




posted on Jun, 29 2009 @ 06:07 AM
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reply to post by Imago Dei
 


There is so much more than enough evidence proveing that the english translations of the bible have misinterpretations like you wouldn't believe. Take for instance the original King James Version.... the best known and original ENGLISH bible. Read Acts 12:4. Notice the word "easter" in that verse? It's the GREEK word "Pascha" which translates everywhere else in the new testament as "Passover" but translates "easter" here? Why is that? Now take modern translations. I like the New King James Version. Acts 12:4 correctly has the word "Passover" in place of "easter." So, it is extremely important to learn the original language of these books known as the Holy Bible. Why take a "translator's" word for it? Why take a word that's "pagan" in origin like "HELL" and put it in the english bible? The original scriptures have no area of translation for "hell". Why? Because the word "hell" was not part of biblical teachings. It caused confusion for many thanks to the translators and catholic church doctrine filtered through in the protestant reformation. By accepting this doctrine, you are following catholic doctrine. Don't forget, I use to be baptist. I was taught their version of "hell". As an adult and reading the bible doing research, I found so much fault in what the bible said and what the preacher said. One of them was wrong, and I don't think it was the bible. Unlike you who has probably had this concept of "everlasting hell" all your life, I left that way of thinking and learned on my own what was really happening. Oh, and Jesus was crucified 31AD. So much for "good friday."



posted on Jun, 29 2009 @ 07:32 PM
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reply to post by Imago Dei
 


JUST WOW



The mods should have thrown this thead into a rant file or trash can ions ago, it's full of lieing conspiriacies and misinterpretation of scripture all by a conglomeration of teamsters who are uniting in disinf, that's against forum guidlines.

I know what your trying to do here, you are rimming on just the edge of trolling to provoke a reaction, so a MOD will come in here and nuke the thread.

Let me give you some advice since you are new to ATS, the MODS are way smarter than most internet MODS around here, you will go down before this thread does. MODS don't scratch a 40+ flagged thread just because of one unhappy poster that disagrees with the thread.

And whats wrong with intelligent people who have studied Greek and Hebrew and the bible coming to a conclusion about what the bible teaches, oh that's right you disagree with them so they are all disinformation agents of the other "god".

Just remember the word of God is a Two edged sword, virtually everything you say about us can also cut back to you and apply to you, minus the burning for all eternity part of coarse.


Hebrews 4 verse 12

12 For the word of God is living, and active, and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing even to the dividing of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and quick to discern the thoughts and intents of the heart.


Most intelligent people can see that Hell is a bogus bogeyman story, designed to scare and frighten, and they still can believe in a intelligent creator.

I am really sorry you refuse to see it, because as my sig. says the truth would set you free, free from the false fear of Hell.

Also other Christians don't believe in Hell either any more, they have wised up.

One sample from the internet


(Jerome Conspiracy First Edition) Book Summary By Gerald Peppy Jr. - 12/17/2008 Documents the unwritten history of how the doctrine of hell became part of mainstream Christianity and the Bible. The book's documentation shows:
1) The Roman Fathers (who are often quoted for their teaching of eternal punishment) represent the tiniest minority of Christians at the start of the faith.

2) The overwhelming vast majority of original Christians were taught universal salvation - not just in church but also in the earliest theological schools as well.

3) Almost overnight, mainstream Christianity shifted from belief in universal salvation to belief in the Roman doctrine of eternal punishment in hell.

4) The book then reveals the historical events which led to this sudden and instantaneous shift. (The historical revelation is not only fascinating, but it also has profound implications for the Christian faith today.)

This book blows the lid off a dirty little secret behind the development of a core Christian belief. And it reveals the surprising differences between the original Bible penned by the apostles and the modern versions read in churches today.

In my opinion, the Christian faith is very well served in the overall conclusion of the book. Despite the uncensored depiction of the raw historical truth, the book remains pro-Christian, pro-Bible in its final analysis. I strongly recommend this book for Christians and non-Christians alike. A fascinating read regardless of your religious persuasion.


You actually might find that when it comes right down to it, many Christians today don't have as much faith in Hell as they do in Heaven.
And to me that is very good progress.



posted on Jun, 30 2009 @ 02:14 AM
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You and your mate have both threatened mod intervention againts me now. As you suggested due to their inteligence they haven't intervened, so you arent getting rid of me just because I am making a mockery of your mockery of the word of God.

I see you still haven't admitted being a Jehovahs witness. Why is that?

By the way the appostles turned the world on its head with the Gospel of the kingdom of the heavens, the whole world was near converted, until Consatan introduced the first "Christian Cult" AKA Roman Catholisim around 300 AD which duped the world up until todayand took 100 million believers in the true Gospel with them. New cults like yours are very new 19th century at the earliest. Universal salvation? Never heard of it. Adam was the first Christian, do you realise that? IE the first man on earth, it's been aroud a while ya know. True Christianity that is. (that'll put the cat among the pigeons) Gen 3.15 The promise of the saviour in whom Adam believed. Yes! Adam and was undoubtedly the first believer and the first saved man, the first born again man.


I find it important to note that you find "Christians" rejecting the word of God to be good progress. Duely noted!

I also find it importatnt to note that yet again you are bragging about how many flaggs (whatever that menas coz yes I'm new) this thread has. Why is that is it all because of your do you think?



















[edit on 30-6-2009 by Imago Dei]



posted on Jun, 30 2009 @ 02:37 AM
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Originally posted by Locoman8
reply to post by Imago Dei
 


There is so much more than enough evidence proveing that the english translations of the bible have misinterpretations like you wouldn't believe. Take for instance the original King James Version.... the best known and original ENGLISH bible. Read Acts 12:4. Notice the word "easter" in that verse? It's the GREEK word "Pascha" which translates everywhere else in the new testament as "Passover" but translates "easter" here? Why is that? Now take modern translations. I like the New King James Version. Acts 12:4 correctly has the word "Passover" in place of "easter." So, it is extremely important to learn the original language of these books known as the Holy Bible. Why take a "translator's" word for it? Why take a word that's "pagan" in origin like "HELL" and put it in the english bible? The original scriptures have no area of translation for "hell". Why? Because the word "hell" was not part of biblical teachings. It caused confusion for many thanks to the translators and catholic church doctrine filtered through in the protestant reformation. By accepting this doctrine, you are following catholic doctrine. Don't forget, I use to be baptist. I was taught their version of "hell". As an adult and reading the bible doing research, I found so much fault in what the bible said and what the preacher said. One of them was wrong, and I don't think it was the bible. Unlike you who has probably had this concept of "everlasting hell" all your life, I left that way of thinking and learned on my own what was really happening. Oh, and Jesus was crucified 31AD. So much for "good friday."


Yes I am aware of the lazyness of the King James translators, But As I said, these errors and short comings have been rectified. I used to be a baptist too, what one chooses to call ones self does not change what is written in scripture. Neither does twisting the context of the greek and hebrew.



posted on Jun, 30 2009 @ 02:45 AM
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reply to post by Imago Dei
 


The progress is actually understanding the bible.

And this is about a singular topic "Hellfire" not JW's , trinity, or cults or any other point of distraction. You want to talk about that on ATS there are threads for those.
Go over to those threads to deal with those topics.

Because you keep using classic distraction tactics. And everybody can see it. Constantly saying you guys don't believe in Hell so you are part of cult, is really weak man, you need to give that up, that is if you want anybody to take what your saying seriously.

Back on topic

More quotes

Human beings on the other hand are not immortal.. We can and do die. When we die we no longer have a conscious state. We are unaware of our surroundings because we no longer exist in any form. . . . The majority of Christians today believe that if you are wicked, if you do not believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God and that God is the Creator of the universe, then you will be sent to hell where you will be tortured with pain and torment forever. The God of the Bible who, ". . . so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son . . .". (john 3:16), would not be so unjust and unmerciful. . . . If we do not torture the wicked in our society, how can a Christian possibly believe that God would do it? This is not even logical. How could any Christian believe that his God would inflict this type of punishment on millions and millions of people who have died since the beginning of man. This idea does not make sense when you study who the God of the Bible is. . . . Errors of doctrine began in the Christian Church almost as soon as the church began. " The Apostles contended with false teachings . . .", (NKJV, Background to Modern Church History, pg 1890), in the churches they themselves founded. The doctrine of humans undergoing a fiery torment throughout eternity was a secular description of God's punishment of the wicked that was embraced by an emerging Christian Church in an empire with a pagan background. . . . Copywrite: 2006 by Robert R. Richard Sr., all rights reserved.


[edit on 30-6-2009 by Blue_Jay33]



posted on Jun, 30 2009 @ 03:52 AM
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Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
reply to post by Imago Dei
 


The progress is actually understanding the bible.

And this is about a singular topic "Hellfire" not JW's , trinity, or cults or any other point of distraction. You want to talk about that on ATS there are threads for those.
Go over to those threads to deal with those topics.

Because you keep using classic distraction tactics. And everybody can see it. Constantly saying you guys don't believe in Hell so you are part of cult, is really weak man, you need to give that up, that is if you want anybody to take what your saying seriously.

Back on topic

More quotes

Human beings on the other hand are not immortal.. We can and do die. When we die we no longer have a conscious state. We are unaware of our surroundings because we no longer exist in any form. . . . The majority of Christians today believe that if you are wicked, if you do not believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God and that God is the Creator of the universe, then you will be sent to hell where you will be tortured with pain and torment forever. The God of the Bible who, ". . . so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son . . .". (john 3:16), would not be so unjust and unmerciful. . . . If we do not torture the wicked in our society, how can a Christian possibly believe that God would do it? This is not even logical. How could any Christian believe that his God would inflict this type of punishment on millions and millions of people who have died since the beginning of man. This idea does not make sense when you study who the God of the Bible is. . . . Errors of doctrine began in the Christian Church almost as soon as the church began. " The Apostles contended with false teachings . . .", (NKJV, Background to Modern Church History, pg 1890), in the churches they themselves founded. The doctrine of humans undergoing a fiery torment throughout eternity was a secular description of God's punishment of the wicked that was embraced by an emerging Christian Church in an empire with a pagan background. . . . Copywrite: 2006 by Robert R. Richard Sr., all rights reserved.


[edit on 30-6-2009 by Blue_Jay33]


Im sorry the fact you are a JW cult member is fundamental to the cult doctrine you are preaching here, and that you are not up front about it is further deception tactics form you. Because you know that if you admit to it on this in this thread you will be exposed. (too late you a have been already). The scripture issue has already been settled and refuted for all who care to read the whole thread through post by post. You still do not accept it.

If you state to me that you are not a JW, I will appologize to you for wrongly suggesting that you are, but your partner in crime let the cat out of the bag by saying it is good that His Church and JW are agreed on the doctrine of annihilation in a post to you.

As you know, and you started it, I have been accused, in this thread, of being a "christian" of all things thats right?. Ive been accused of being a "bible believer" hmmm, "a pagan" huh huh, "A liberal humanist", that was a good one "a trinitarian" heh a doom and gloomer" yeuus, and the list goes on. Which is unbeliveable that I could be abused for being a bible beleiving christian on a thread that is all to do with debating scripture. Dont you agree that this is quite frankly totally and utterly unbelievably rediculous?

Frankly it is the only reason I stick around in this thread for the pure entertainment value.

Now come on, all of us have been open and candid about our beliefs and church affiialiations or lack thereof in this thread, why not you Mr 40 flagg boy?. It's your thread? We are all ears.

"This is one topic in which JW's and LCG does agree on and I'm happy that we see the truth in this topic"

Im giving LCG boy a big fat star for that post






[edit on 30-6-2009 by Imago Dei]



posted on Jun, 30 2009 @ 08:45 AM
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Originally posted by Imago Dei

I used to be a baptist too, what one chooses to call ones self does not change what is written in scripture. Neither does twisting the context of the greek and hebrew.


Okay. That is a reasonable statement. What I call myself and what you call yourself makes no difference because the bible still says the same thing. Think about that when blasting bluejay for his lack of telling you his "religious affiliation." So what if he's a Jehovas Witness. So what if I'm a Judeo-Christian. So what if you're a....... whatever you say you are. Saying that you're a christain is a cheap way out of that. To be a christian is to be "Christ-like" and what did Christ do and teach?

He kept the 7th day Sabbath for starters and called Himself the "Lord of the Sabbath."
He kept all 7 of God's Holy Day feasts as well as His apostles and the first century church.
He kept ALL Ten of God's Commandments and taught that if you teach men to break them, you will be considered least in the Kingdom of Heaven.
He taught to love your neighbor.
He spoke of "hell" as "Gehenna".... the Valley of Hinnom full of DEAD bodies that would turn to ash eventually (Malachi 4:3).
He didn't teach that the sinful would burn FOREVER! Just that they'd burn up and turn to ash.
He taught that His Father was God.... that means He wasn't God!!! He prayed to His Father, was resurrected by His Father, and recieved the Holy Spirit by His Father. Now He sits at the right hand of His Father! How can He sit by the right hand of Himself? How can He be His own Father? Think about that for a minute.






Originally posted by Imago Dei


Im sorry the fact you are a JW cult member is fundamental to the cult doctrine you are preaching here, and that you are not up front about it is further deception tactics form you. Because you know that if you admit to it on this in this thread you will be exposed. (too late you a have been already). The scripture issue has already been settled and refuted for all who care to read the whole thread through post by post. You still do not accept it.

If you state to me that you are not a JW, I will appologize to you for wrongly suggesting that you are, but your partner in crime let the cat out of the bag by saying it is good that His Church and JW are agreed on the doctrine of annihilation in a post to you.

As you know, and you started it, I have been accused, in this thread, of being a "christian" of all things thats right?. Ive been accused of being a "bible believer" hmmm, "a pagan" huh huh, "A liberal humanist", that was a good one "a trinitarian" heh a doom and gloomer" yeuus, and the list goes on. Which is unbeliveable that I could be abused for being a bible beleiving christian on a thread that is all to do with debating scripture. Dont you agree that this is quite frankly totally and utterly unbelievably rediculous?

Frankly it is the only reason I stick around in this thread for the pure entertainment value.

Now come on, all of us have been open and candid about our beliefs and church affiialiations or lack thereof in this thread, why not you Mr 40 flagg boy?. It's your thread? We are all ears.

"This is one topic in which JW's and LCG does agree on and I'm happy that we see the truth in this topic"

Im giving LCG boy a big fat star for that post






[edit on 30-6-2009 by Imago Dei]


Thanks for the star. I know you did it just to spite me but thanks anyways. Bluejay and I don't see eye to eye on a lot of subjects so he's not really my "partner in crime." He doesn't believe in living by the laws of the Old Testament as I do. He doesn't believe you have to honor the seventh day Sabbath as I do. But reguardless of his religious title, he's still a person..... an intelligent person with great understanding of the scriptures. Don't look at his religious title for your "judging" toward him.


Matthew 7:1-6

1 “Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. 3 And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
6 “Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.

Forget the "hell" doctrine. You need a real christian lesson on living like Christ because your little parade on this thread is showing your true colors and they don't reflect that of Christ. Calling people "chumps (fools)", "luciferian", "40 flagg boy (learn to spell flag)", "LCG boy", etc. Just added the "boy" names for fun. My point is, your "fun" on this thread is causing you to reflect negative "non-christian" attitude. Peace, I'm out.



posted on Jun, 30 2009 @ 09:28 AM
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reply to post by Imago Dei
 





Frankly it is the only reason I stick around in this thread for the pure entertainment value.


Ok by your own admission you can't be taken seriously so you just earned ignore status from me. Since your new I will explain it, I won't be able to see any of your posts anymore.
Jesus said something about throwing pearls, I think you know the scripture

Therefore I am not wasting anymore keystrokes on you for your "entertainment value"

Bu-bye now.



posted on Jun, 30 2009 @ 03:42 PM
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Originally posted by Locoman8

Originally posted by Imago Dei

I used to be a baptist too, what one chooses to call ones self does not change what is written in scripture. Neither does twisting the context of the greek and hebrew.


Okay. That is a reasonable statement. What I call myself and what you call yourself makes no difference because the bible still says the same thing. Think about that when blasting bluejay for his lack of telling you his "religious affiliation." So what if he's a Jehovas Witness. So what if I'm a Judeo-Christian. So what if you're a....... whatever you say you are. Saying that you're a christain is a cheap way out of that. To be a christian is to be "Christ-like" and what did Christ do and teach?

He kept the 7th day Sabbath for starters and called Himself the "Lord of the Sabbath."
He kept all 7 of God's Holy Day feasts as well as His apostles and the first century church.
He kept ALL Ten of God's Commandments and taught that if you teach men to break them, you will be considered least in the Kingdom of Heaven.
He taught to love your neighbor.
He spoke of "hell" as "Gehenna".... the Valley of Hinnom full of DEAD bodies that would turn to ash eventually (Malachi 4:3).
He didn't teach that the sinful would burn FOREVER! Just that they'd burn up and turn to ash.
He taught that His Father was God.... that means He wasn't God!!! He prayed to His Father, was resurrected by His Father, and recieved the Holy Spirit by His Father. Now He sits at the right hand of His Father! How can He sit by the right hand of Himself? How can He be His own Father? Think about that for a minute.






Originally posted by Imago Dei


Im sorry the fact you are a JW cult member is fundamental to the cult doctrine you are preaching here, and that you are not up front about it is further deception tactics form you. Because you know that if you admit to it on this in this thread you will be exposed. (too late you a have been already). The scripture issue has already been settled and refuted for all who care to read the whole thread through post by post. You still do not accept it.

If you state to me that you are not a JW, I will appologize to you for wrongly suggesting that you are, but your partner in crime let the cat out of the bag by saying it is good that His Church and JW are agreed on the doctrine of annihilation in a post to you.

As you know, and you started it, I have been accused, in this thread, of being a "christian" of all things thats right?. Ive been accused of being a "bible believer" hmmm, "a pagan" huh huh, "A liberal humanist", that was a good one "a trinitarian" heh a doom and gloomer" yeuus, and the list goes on. Which is unbeliveable that I could be abused for being a bible beleiving christian on a thread that is all to do with debating scripture. Dont you agree that this is quite frankly totally and utterly unbelievably rediculous?

Frankly it is the only reason I stick around in this thread for the pure entertainment value.

Now come on, all of us have been open and candid about our beliefs and church affiialiations or lack thereof in this thread, why not you Mr 40 flagg boy?. It's your thread? We are all ears.

"This is one topic in which JW's and LCG does agree on and I'm happy that we see the truth in this topic"

Im giving LCG boy a big fat star for that post






[edit on 30-6-2009 by Imago Dei]


Thanks for the star. I know you did it just to spite me but thanks anyways. Bluejay and I don't see eye to eye on a lot of subjects so he's not really my "partner in crime." He doesn't believe in living by the laws of the Old Testament as I do. He doesn't believe you have to honor the seventh day Sabbath as I do. But reguardless of his religious title, he's still a person..... an intelligent person with great understanding of the scriptures. Don't look at his religious title for your "judging" toward him.


Matthew 7:1-6

1 “Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. 3 And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
6 “Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.

Forget the "hell" doctrine. You need a real christian lesson on living like Christ because your little parade on this thread is showing your true colors and they don't reflect that of Christ. Calling people "chumps (fools)", "luciferian", "40 flagg boy (learn to spell flag)", "LCG boy", etc. Just added the "boy" names for fun. My point is, your "fun" on this thread is causing you to reflect negative "non-christian" attitude. Peace, I'm out.


I have no beef with anyone on a personal level, you are probably a couple of great blokes. The thing is we dont believe the same thing. Christ said to do the whole works of God is to believe in Him who He sent. The law is designed to lead us to Christ, yes He didnt do away with the law, we are to obey the law, but the fact is, we have all broken the law which deems our need for a redeemer saviour, your faith denies the very reality of who and what Christ is, which means on a fundamental biblical level we are not brothers. To be a Judeo Christian, DOes not mean that you deny the realty of Christ and follow the law, it mean you accept and receivethe reality of Christ and follow the commandments. Your arent a Judeo Christian. True Judeo Christianity embraces the trinity that you reject.

Can one be saved and believe that hell is not eternal, yes, but only if one has received Christ as saviour. As you have denied that Christ is God, you can not be saved. Which is the whole purpose of the Christ and the whole pupose of the bible, you guys place your faith in works alone. We are saved by grace throug faith in Christ not of good workd so no one can boast. No matter how much you believe otherwise, you will never change this eternal fact.

[edit on 30-6-2009 by Imago Dei]



posted on Jun, 30 2009 @ 04:07 PM
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reply to post by Imago Dei
 


Ok, if that is true, then what is your excuse for the rich man that approaches Jesus? Why doesn't Jesus tell the rich man exactly what you are saying.

How can what you say be the truth when Jesus himself says otherwise when approached?

You are simply looking for the easy way. Because you feel it is too hard to walk the path, you find it more comforting to believe you can just say Jesus is god and be done with it. But that isn't what Jesus says.

I'm sure if Jesus had told the rich man - worry not, just accept this "free gift" the rich man would have been able to do that. But because the rich man had to give away his posessions and walk the path, it was too high of a price from him to pay, and he couldn't do it.

Seems to me like you are just saying - well we all sin, nothing you can do about it. Just accept you are a sinner and move along please. That is not repenting for sins and fixing mistakes, it's making excuses for them as a reason and way to continue them.

So again, if what you say is true then why doesn't Jesus say that to the rich man.

Did they forget to add the part where Jesus walks off laughing and say - hahhaha I fooled him, all he really needs to do is wait until I'm dead and get his free gift?

And for the record, you can say you have no beef on a personal level, but all you do is attack people personally with all the name calling and such. If you didn't have a beef with people on a personal level, then you would only respond to the points they make, and never attack them personally.

Many people simple won't respond to you at all because they don't want to be brought down to such a level in their responses, as it's not easy to do. AKA tempting people.

[edit on 6/30/2009 by badmedia]



posted on Jun, 30 2009 @ 04:42 PM
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reply to post by Imago Dei
 


I'm not denying Christ or God. I claim they are two separate entities, God being the head of all. Jesus is at the right hand of God. It's so simple if you open your eyes. Jesus never claimed to be God the Father. I think I'll join bluejay with ignoring you since you're only here for your entertainment with namecalling and such. Good day to you.



posted on Jun, 30 2009 @ 08:31 PM
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Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God (John 1:12).

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him (John 3:36).

I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned, he has crossed over from death to life (John 5:24).

Tius 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost


For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast (Ephesians 2:8-9).

And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life (1 John 5:11-13).

I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life (1 John 5:13).

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! (2 Corinthians 5:17).

I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile (Romans 1:16).


For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. It teaches us to say no to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in the present age… (Titus 2:11-12).

"And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand."
-John 10:28 (NKJV

Note All scripture posted here is in relation to those who are already saved through grace and faith in Christ.

The people on this thread who calim the law as their righteousness and their salvation or maintance of salvation, are not saved unless of course they have previoulsy accepted Christ as saviour. That does not mean however that a Christian is not taught to disobey the law, IE it does not mean that we shall go on sinning that Grace may abound, by no means!!

The poor deluded souls have been led into a belief in false doctrines AKA cults who will and do teach you other wise, as is evidenced in this and many other threads. These poor lost souls have been taught that Christ is just a man, and just an example whom we can aspire to be like. They are taught to earn their way into heaven through good works and through obeying the law, (abstaining form shell fish, church on Satarday etc etc) nothing wrong with any of that if that is you preference, but it wont save your soul.

They reject that Christ is the only way the only truth and the only life through which we may be saved by purporting that one can clean up their own lives, and they say that when one has stopped sining then one is saved. This is a lie and nothing can be further from the truth. They are cunning and baffling because they quote scripture, giving an appearance that they know the God. However in actual fact in the very same breath they mock and goad true Christians at every turn. Do not be led astray by them as they, sadly have been led astray themselves.


Badmouth: You who continue to mock the Grace of God and the free gift of salvation that cost Christ everything are not worthy of a direct discourse. Any way, already you have gone back on your agreement not to respond to me directly, clearly you have no self control and cannot resist the temptation to argue with me. You reduced yourself to the level you are at long before I came along.

You may notice that not one person has agreed with me fully on this thread, I am quite used to being persecuted, mocked insulted and abused
It comes with the territory. Although in an internet forum, its not really the "real world" so it s easy to bare. Still I have to say it is high time I shook the dust of my shoes and left you all to your own devices.

Earlier someone stated that they are going to put me on "ignore" because they are no longer going to cast their pearls to swine. Do you not know that the pearl of great price is the Lord Jesus Christ himself, him whom you reject. You have no pearls to cast at me. I have the pearl of great price in my poccession, through Grace. Praise the living Lord.

I am only on ignore because they find themselves no match for the truth.






[edit on 30-6-2009 by Imago Dei]



posted on Jun, 30 2009 @ 08:49 PM
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Originally posted by Locoman8
reply to post by Imago Dei
 


I'm not denying Christ or God. I claim they are two separate entities, God being the head of all. Jesus is at the right hand of God. It's so simple if you open your eyes. Jesus never claimed to be God the Father. I think I'll join bluejay with ignoring you since you're only here for your entertainment with namecalling and such. Good day to you.


Well Im gald that you have decided to ignore me along with JW, because then I wont have to be subjected to your constant babling in response to my posts, which will make refuting your position all the more easy for people interested in this thread. Insteading of having to be subjected to a slanging diversion, in between the facts of the matter.

You claim that Jesus and God are two separate entities, thats fine, Go ahead. But the word of God claims otherwise. They are the same entity in different forms. God can do anything, dont you know that? God can come down to earth in the flesh to pay the penalty for our sins, which no mortal man could ever do. Adam failed. The last Adam, Christ succeeded.

And they shall call is name Emmanuel, which means God with us.





[edit on 30-6-2009 by Imago Dei]



posted on Jun, 30 2009 @ 09:19 PM
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reply to post by Imago Dei
 




John 1

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


And then John 3:36.



33He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.

34For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

35The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

36He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.


He that doesn't believe what the son does and say. It doesn't say those who don't believe in the son as a means of acceptance, but those believe him, meaning what he says and does. Thus the in the verses right before the one you quote, in context, it says he that has received his testimony, and then in the following verse God hath sent speaketh the words of God.

You are distorting what is being said there, and what it means to "believe".



posted on Jun, 30 2009 @ 09:23 PM
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Originally posted by badmedia
reply to post by Imago Dei
 




John 1

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


And then John 3:36.



33He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.

34For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

35The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

36He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.


He that doesn't believe what the son does and say. It doesn't say those who don't believe in the son as a means of acceptance, but those believe him, meaning what he says and does. Thus the in the verses right before the one you quote, in context, it says he that has received his testimony, and then in the following verse God hath sent speaketh the words of God.

You are distorting what is being said there, and what it means to "believe".



? The scripture you have posted is intirely aligned with the scripture I have posted. It does not contradict or distort it at all! Nor do the scriptures I have posted previously contradict or distort those you have posted!

The only contradiction and distortion, is your distorted perception of me as an indivdual. There is not a lot I can do about that. Scripture does not refute scripture, to imply that its does is lunacy personified.





[edit on 30-6-2009 by Imago Dei]



posted on Jun, 30 2009 @ 09:36 PM
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reply to post by Imago Dei
 


You are talking about believing in the person/being/idol of Jesus. And you put all the importance on that, rather than the things he says and does. The verses you used to support that are not saying believe in him in that way, it is saying believe in what he says and does.

Jesus says over and over to keep the commandments and to follow the path, to do as he says and what he "testifies", but you have reduced all that into being about believing in him.

The difference is you believe he died for your sins in a manner that means his death itself is what "saves" you. I on the other hand believe it is his life that is what saves people, and his death was the price he paid for speaking the truth in a kingdom that was not his own. His grace was in doing those things when he did not have to, as he was not evil or a sinner and thus had no reason to be here other than to "testify" the truth to people.

Those who find salvation in his death are finding salvation in the sacrifice of truth, so that the lie of this world may live. I find salvation in the truth itself, which is what he brings from the father, and is of the father, and is the father within him.

And this is also why Jesus says - those who believe will walk the path. Lip service is cheap.

I've asked you multiple times now about the rich man, and you ignore it. If what you say is true, then why did Jesus tell the rich man otherwise?



posted on Jun, 30 2009 @ 09:46 PM
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"hell" is a LIE!!!!

And if you understand the Bible, you would come to the same conclusion.




BTW - I am a JW, but the person speaking in the video IS NOT



posted on Jun, 30 2009 @ 11:19 PM
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Originally posted by badmedia
reply to post by Imago Dei
 


You are talking about believing in the person/being/idol of Jesus. And you put all the importance on that, rather than the things he says and does. The verses you used to support that are not saying believe in him in that way, it is saying believe in what he says and does.

Jesus says over and over to keep the commandments and to follow the path, to do as he says and what he "testifies", but you have reduced all that into being about believing in him.

The difference is you believe he died for your sins in a manner that means his death itself is what "saves" you. I on the other hand believe it is his life that is what saves people, and his death was the price he paid for speaking the truth in a kingdom that was not his own. His grace was in doing those things when he did not have to, as he was not evil or a sinner and thus had no reason to be here other than to "testify" the truth to people.

Those who find salvation in his death are finding salvation in the sacrifice of truth, so that the lie of this world may live. I find salvation in the truth itself, which is what he brings from the father, and is of the father, and is the father within him.

And this is also why Jesus says - those who believe will walk the path. Lip service is cheap.

I've asked you multiple times now about the rich man, and you ignore it. If what you say is true, then why did Jesus tell the rich man otherwise?



I never said anything about denying the commandments or doing away with the commandments.

Again, you are stating that I am saying things, believing things, doing things, that I am not. Thats called lieng. if you would cease and desist form doing that we may be able to have a useful debate, until then, your a waste of time and clearly only interested in insults and inuendo. If you can resist the temptation to give into your flesh on every post (which is obvious to all and sundry) then I will consider responding directly to your posts again, until then, I request that you honour your word, because you are demonstarting that you cant be trusted.





[edit on 30-6-2009 by Imago Dei]



posted on Jun, 30 2009 @ 11:29 PM
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reply to post by holywar
 


Thank you for your honesty although I dont watch youtube posts, I dont accept that as worthy form of debate. Its a lazy mans tool. And just becuase it's on Youtube doesn't make it so. For all I know it could be a pastor at a JW convention of a LCG Church. It isn't satisfactory as evidence.

There are Christian who believe one can loose their salvation and never regain it again, and are on there way to eternal damnation, they pull scriptures out of the bible as "proof". If they where right, I would be one of those people, and if it where true, I wouldnt be engaged in reasoining over scripture, I'd be off my nut on drugs and alcohol and trying to shag everything that moves. What we believe about the scripture is very important because it affects our world view, our spirit and how we live our lives. Do we live it in fear and obey the commandents becuase of that fear, or do we live it gratitude and thanks to God and obey the m becuae of that. I am of the latter. Those who think obeying the law with out Christ, are wordshippng the Law as their idol, and the bible warns severly againts doing this.

I commend anyone who does their best to live by the commandments of God saved or unsaved, and there are many non religious people who live beautiful lives in service to man kind, better live than many a christian in fact and they have never picked up a bible. They have every right to be proud of themselves and no doubt they live very happy productive useful lives. But good works alone does not get you into heaven. However, the topic at hand is sound doctrine.






[edit on 30-6-2009 by Imago Dei]





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