Hell is a Conspircacy Theory- Proved False, From The Bible

reply to post by CharlesMartel


LOL, that's a good one, but I personally own 6 bibles and one them is KJV.
Because of archaic Shakespearean type language it uses, I use it less than my other ones.

I see no need to obtain anymore with these sites providing so many versions.

biblos.com...
www.biblegateway.com...

I find using multiple bible's very helpful, in understanding where confusing doctrine came from. This thread is a prime example.

Originally posted by Welfhard

Originally posted by spellbound
reply to post by Welfhard

 

My theory - probably nuts, is that God did let Satan have the earth, that Jesus was the son of God, and that we are therefore living in Satan's kingdom, which is hell on earth.

Look around at all the evil and suffering in the world - Satan must be thrilled.

But if satan was simply allowed to rule then, he needn't offer Jesus the world cos God still technically ruled.

Satan did need to offer Jesus the world. It was offered in exchange for Jesus worshipping Satan, which would be sinful. If Jesus sinned, he could not accomplish paying the penalty for all our sins. Jesus needed to remain sinless to do this, otherwise His death would only justify His own sin, which He would not be able to return from. In order to save us from hell (which I agree with the OP is not eternal torture, but ultimate destruction via the lake of burning sulfur) He had to remain sinless. Satan had to tempt Jesus the same as everyone else.
All the while, God is still indeed sovereign. Though He allows satan to tempt us here on Earth. Refer to the book of Job. In the beginning it says that the angels presented themselves to the Lord and satan was with them. God granted permission to satan to curse Job because God believed in Job. He knew Job would not turn away from Him, or make the wrong decision. I think that is why satan is allowed to rule. God believes in our ability to choose Him over satan. Like a father watching his son's little league game believing his son can hit the ball. The boy may stike out again and again, but the father doesn't lose faith in him. Eventually, the boy makes contact and the father stands up and cheers, telling all around him "Thats my boy!!"
Thankfully we have a loving, forgiving, merciful God who keeps believing in us though we fail Him time and time again. He believes so much in fact, that He sent His only Son to die for us, to redeem those failures so that when we do make the right choice, we may inheirit the gift of eternal life.

Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
reply to post by teapot

 

I am just responding to the time line point, why do you think I put this in capitals, just before I posted the timeline.

So he is relating this specifically to the END TIMES, NOT CREATION. This is very important to understanding time lines.

Because I knew some Young Earth creationist would use it against me, and now you have. I just knew that would happen, again a discussion for another thread.

And your still reading it backwards anyway, God perceives 1000 of our human years, as 1-24 hour day would be perceived for humans.
For example from his perspective Adam sinned about six days ago. That's why for humans it seems like God is taking forever to fix all these problems.
But God basically told us by the end of the week(His week) I am going to have this mess cleaned up. So from his perspective he is fixing it pretty quickly. Also a person like Abel the first human to die, hasn't been sleeping in death very long at all, from God's perspective, again gone only around 6 days.

[edit on 24-4-2009 by Blue_Jay33]

God said; I AM, the Alpha and the Omega.

It interests me that you only answer the query that you have already prepared for! From what you say, I am aware that you follow the JW code.

'New Earth Creationist'? What is that?

Apologies if this has been mentioned already in this thread (I wouldn't doubt it since the original poster's arguments are so similar) but I didn't have time to read the entire 11 pages.

I would just like to say that I agree with all of what the OP stated and they are right on the money. I stumbled upon a website a few years ago that outlined this very same argument and it opened my eyes. I advise anyone still in denial to open their minds and welcome a spirituality that isn't based on fear of consequences. When you read the non-KJV translations it is obvious that this idea of "Hell" was invented by the churches and used as a tool for control.

L. Ray Smith has been speaking and writing about this for a long time and his website is a must-read for any Christians still living in fear of that idea of Hell they preach about on Sundays. Start by reading the "Lake of Fire" series, if you only read one, this is the one. I highly recommend reading all the pages as they all contain valuable information, the myth of Hell is just the beginning my friends.

L. Ray Smith - Exposing Those Who Contradict

reply to post by Santeria


Yes, people who study this, unencumbered by emotional attachment's to dogma,
continue to learn.
To quote one person from the OP, "the hose has been turned on Hell" putting out that imaginary fire.


As for some of the other points made there are always answers, but I leave that for you to discover on your own.

Satan punishing souls for their sins they've done, sounds like doin work for God, funny when they call satin evil and bad while he's punishing souls for god. you think our souls will go hundreds or thousand of miles beneath the earth or fly way up in the clouds to heaven? lava isn't honeycombed or has a huge air space where "hell" is, we would vaporized or liquified even the Satan himself!

reply to post by Burginthorn


Burginthorn,

I posted a few days ago about my experience/ vision of Hell and i din't have time to post a description, but below is a very brief one. I had my experience at age 21 when I accepted Christ as my savior. I was alone later that night just praising Jesus for dying on the Cross to save me and I heard a very disinctive voice in me head and I instintively knew this voice wasn't just my own thoughts. The voice said , "Ask me whatever you want"

I immediately asked "Lord , please show me what I was saved from"

My concept of Hell up to that time was a guy in a red cape running around with a pitchfork making things uncomfortable for the worst of the worst sinners that ended up there. I had never picked up and read the Bible before this happened. I was raised as a Catholic and went to church every week and did all the "Church Stuff" but one day about 6 months prior, a man walked over to me and my girlfriend in a park we were at and he had a bible in his hands and asked me if I had ever read John 3:3. I said I hadn't and he read the verse to me and showed me what it said. That verse turned out to be a seed he planted in my heart that eventually came to fruition and led me out of darkness to the Lord.

As soon as I was asked the question, 'Ask me whatever you want" and I replied "Lord please show me what i was saved from" I closed my eyes and was immediately given this vision that only lasted probably a few seconds, but it was long enough to burn the image, thoughts, feelings etc. of Hell in my mind forever.

That vision happened to me in 1978 and 31 years later, it is still as fresh in my mind as it was the day after it happened.

I do not tell very many people about this vision, but the Lord has been prompting me to speak about it more as of late because the time is getting short.

Here is the brief description of my vision of Hell.

"I was shown a waking vision of Hell in 1978 when I became saved. My experience sounds very close to other Hell experiences I have heard through the years. Total Blackness Black that is indescribable, A terrible blackness that seems to have matter.

Indescribable physical and mental torment and having your concious mind stripped of anything that was ever good, lovely or pure in this world during your lifetime. Only the memory of evil and sin and the realization that there is no more time, just an eternal NOW. Only way I can describe the pain is like every atom of your being is on fire. The pain is so terrible you cannot put it in human terms. Human terms are finite, and the suffering is infinite, because the God that you sinned against is infinite.

The "worm that dieth not" rips at your mind with all the chances to accept Christ in this life that you rejected. Every second of every day you lived was a chance that you had to accept Christ and give him your heart and life.

4 words echo through your mind for eternity "THERE IS NO HOPE"

This terrible fate will never let up, never subside, never cease.

How great and awesome is the foregiveness for our eternal sins that Jesus paid on the cross by his eternal sacrifice!!! We will never fully know in this lifetime I can assure you.

reply to post by John 3:3


Another real witness providing real testimony!

Would you say Jesus knew exactly what he was talking about when he spoke of this darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth? And the sensation you were allowed to experience was one of every atom of your being on fire?

Again the Bible holds testaments from witnesses and isn't a collection of stories open to individual interpretation.

I give you a star!

reply to post by John 3:3


WOW!

Thank you for sharing your experience - even though it is a topic that can strike a raw note in a lot of people.
I too never mention hell, and what I experienced there with people when I talk to them about anything God related. I am not one for 'hell fire & brimstone' preaching, and would hope someone who turns to Christ, does so out of reverence for His sacrifice, not out of fear.

I find this thread very interesting, and have been coming to it daily to read everyone's views and scriptural quotes. Its good to see folk really trying to get an understanding of spiritual matters, and not passing it off as rubbish make believe fairy tales. The reality of hell, and the consequence of sin is all too important for our eternity, to simply reject with a closed mind.

What inspires me more than fear of hell, is the promise of our future. Because this too is something that God has shown me. I'll write just a few short things on what this future offers ...

We are created in the image of the trinity. The image of God. But this image goes beyond physical expression to the core of who we are as people, created beings in the image of our Father. God is the creator. Therefor we too are creators. Look around you, everything you see was created. Not just Gods creation, but mans. The PC you use, the clothes you wear, the chair you sit on - all created by man.

It is in our very nature to create, imagination, inspiration, all qualities of our Father. And we create for ourselves to share with others. Of coarse this is tainted now, and we create to buy, sell and own, but the core of who we are is a reflection of our creator.
The future of creation is ours to continue. Our eternity is one of expansion of the foundation of Gods creation. God lays the ground work, of matter (light) and we continue to build upon this foundation for all eternity. How exciting is that!

Jesus said, ALL that the Father has, He has given it to Me. ALL that I have, I will give to you. The very thing that Satan wanted will be ours, thus the reason we where created in the image of our Father, and Satan wasn't!
Why does Satan want you to fail? Why does he want to blind you, deceive you? steal the very thing you where created for?
He hates us more than we can possibly imagine. And God loves us more than we can possibly imagine.
Our future is one of such mind blowing joy that words could not begin to describe.

I often look out into the night sky, the trillions of stars, the zillions of planets orbiting those stars and let my mind wonder at the continuing future creation in store for those that believe.

A new heaven and a new earth is what awaits indeed, and creation, the continuing of Gods very nature, our nature in His image is mind blowing.

reply to post by Burginthorn



I know a lot of people do not even want to think about Hell, but one thing God revealed to me was that he wants everyone to escape this place and there is a real heaven to be gained and a real hell to be shunned at all costs. If someone gives their life to Jesus Christ and becomes saved, even if it was for no other reason than fear of going to Hell, that is just fine with him. Once they are saved, the Holy Spirit will show them how much God truly loves them.

One thing is certian, you won't hear anyone who has been saved on judgement day complaining about the fact that they trusted Christ because they were afraid of going to Hell.

reply to post by John 3:3


Sorry I don't buy it, as true reality.

Hell experiences are like people who say they have been abducted by aliens.

Hello Blue_Jay.

I am not here to bash or argue your opinion, I am simply offering up some personal information. I have no proof of my beliefs, they are a matter of faith. Without faith, what is the point of living. Faith in something.

I believe we all have an immortal soul. You can choose, of your own accord, to acknowledge god. He speaks to all people at a young age. The idea of a god is presented to you at some point. Either you can choose to believe there is a god, whoever that is, or you can deny it.

There is a ying to every yang. Sorry if I butchered that. The devil is that yang. At some point the devil and god made an agreement. If they deny god, the devil does not get your soul and take you to a lake of fire. This was a myth made to produce money for the church. Fearmongering.

One of the men I served with in Iraq and Afghanistan was hit shrapnel in the neck from an RPG. The 4" by 6" jagged piece of metal entered his jugular and he began dying. He was actually dead for 4 minutes. He was revived. He served another 4 years before leaving the military. He was changed forever.

He said when he passed, he saw a bright light, the usual thing. He knew he was not in a body, he had no pain and did not need to breathe. He felt as if time was stopped, every minute was a life age. He saw the light but did not understand. The light began to dim and a darkness began to drown it out. He panicked but the light eventually went dark. It was complete darkness. He knew with all his soul that this would be his home for eternity.

He had no faith in anything but his gun and himself. He was a complete aethiest. He knows now that when he saw that light, god was calling for him. He simply had to answer back and god would take him in. There is no lake of fire. Just eternal seperation from god. If you have no faith and you die, you will never know god.

I have heard several simular stories. This man does not lie. I felt his heart stop beating while I held his jugular closed. He did die.

The devil, whatever he is, is full of hate. He wants to seperate you from god. He will use anything to make that happen. If he is just the "definition" of darkness or nothing, that may be true. I have felt his pull and I have felt the hand of god when bullets were flying. I cannot bring myself to believe there is no god.

This is just my opinion. I needed to rant my opinion on this. Please provide feedback. Mabye this is just some medical phenomenon when people die. I hope not, I don't want to just turn to dust. What is the point of living in that case.

reply to post by hunger4truth


I would argue that Enoch and Elijah are both in Hades because of what Jesus said "No one has ascended to heaven." In 2 Kings 2:11 the word "Heaven" is used, but this is the Hebrew word "shamayim" which can also refer to the atmospheric heavens in which the airplanes fly, the birds soar, and the clouds gather. So what this verse may be saying is Elijah was taken into the sky. These men got there by special circumstances because they did not die, but I'm confident they were taken to the same place that everyone else goes- Hades or the place described in Luke 16:19.

To answer your second question about the transfiguration, I think Moses and Elijah were taken from Hades back to Earth to meet with Jesus.

Luckily our salvation doesn't depend on knowing the answers to questions like these, but they are really interesting to think about!

What do you think?

[edit on 26-4-2009 by Virtruvious]

Originally posted by Wehali
reply to post by Virtruvious

 

"Much of the bible's content was corrupted, changed and replaced. "

I know this thread is mainly on Hell, but I had to respond to this sentence. A large component of this thread is believing that the Bible is true. If the Bible has been corrupted, changed, and repalced then why should we believe any of it? If that's the case then all the passages of scripture that Blue Jay quoted to start this thread are questionable. Who's to say that those scriptures he's using haven't been changed?

But no, the Bible has not been corrupted, changed, or replaced. The letters of the pre-Nicene church fathers often quoted from Paul’s letters, and all of what is canonized in the Bible. If we were to mysteriously lose all Bibles in existence today, almost the entire New Testament can be reconstructed through the writings of the early Christians alone! Their writings match the New Testaments of today. If anything was changed over the years we would know about it and could reconstruct the original text.

If one wants to say that they don't believe the Bible was inspired by God and therefore can't be trusted then that's fine- that is clearly everyone's right. But one cannot say that the Bible has been corrupted, changed, or replaced because that is simply not the case.

[edit on 26-4-2009 by Virtruvious]

[edit on 26-4-2009 by Virtruvious]

OK, i didn't read all 11 pages because i couldn't ,so i thought to my self after reading some pages that most of you say there is no hell and most of you agree on that.

Now my question is this , is it fair that a God leave us all here on earth doing what we do, the good things and the bad things and after we all die and he receives us up there, we all get to have eternal life? you all want me to believe that all those who committed crimes ever since we set foot on this planet , DOES NOT COUNT ?

you all must be kidding me , THIS IS NOT FAIR , a true God who deserves worshiping should not treat the bad people the same way he treats the good ones in the after life .

just imagine a person and his partner are having an exam, one of them answers all the question and the other does not answer any question or at least he fails to answer the questions, and both of them get a full mark

so what would any of you do in this situation

reply to post by Ragnarok691


Here is the thing, similar experiences seem to be had by people that are on the cusp of death, people that even believe as I do have had that experience.

When close to death or clinical death and revival the brain begins to play games, like life flashes, bright lights, dreams and nightmares. I am not saying that these things aren't being experienced, just that they aren't a reflection of true reality beyond actual death itself.

Originally posted by Dr UAE
OK, i didn't read all 11 pages because i couldn't ,so i thought to my self after reading some pages that most of you say there is no hell and most of you agree on that.

Now my question is this , is it fair that a God leave us all here on earth doing what we do, the good things and the bad things and after we all die and he receives us up there, we all get to have eternal life? you all want me to believe that all those who committed crimes ever since we set foot on this planet , DOES NOT COUNT ?

you all must be kidding me , THIS IS NOT FAIR

, a true God who deserves worshiping should not treat the bad people the same way he treats the good ones in the after life

.

just imagine a person and his partner are having an exam, one of them answers all the question and the other does not answer any question or at least he fails to answer the questions, and both of them get a full mark

so what would any of you do in this situation

I understand your point, here is my answer.

Let's say somebody is really a good person like the characters of Abraham or Job. They spent years developing a good character, and a solid relationship with God. They are not in heaven right now, they are in Sheol or the grave in God's memory and they are not alive, at the appointed time they will be recreated with the same personality and the positive relationship they had with God. They don't have to change they just keep doing what they were doing when they served God, there resurrection back to life confirms there faith and strengthens there relationship with God.

Now compare that to a mass murdering rapist pedophile that developed an evil complex, he is brought back, you might wonder why would God bring back such an evil person. Well it is his choice, who are we to dispute his actions. But this is where it gets interesting, this person has to change there ways and change them quickly because God will not allow them to mess up those that he just back to life that are good. So this person has a lifetime of an evil disposition to overcome almost immediately, not so easy to do.
They have seen the real power of God in that they are alive again, and Satan is jailed and out of the picture they can't blame him for anything now.
This may be enough for them to change quickly and take advantage of Jesus ransom sacrifice or maybe they are so evil they can't be changed, but God not fating them gives them a chance anyway. If they can't change then they will die the second death and go into non-existence for all eternity.

Here is the scripture that talks about this life on earth in paradise, the paradise that Jesus told that sinner beside him he would be in, when they were killed.


Isaiah 65 verses 20-25

20 “No more will there come to be a suckling a few days old from that place, neither an old man that does not fulfill his days; for one will die as a mere boy, although a hundred years of age; and as for the sinner, although a hundred years of age he will have evil called down upon him.

21 And they will certainly build houses and have occupancy; and they will certainly plant vineyards and eat [their] fruitage.

22 They will not build and someone else have occupancy; they will not plant and someone else do the eating. For like the days of a tree will the days of my people be; and the work of their own hands my chosen ones will use to the full.

23 They will not toil for nothing, nor will they bring to birth for disturbance; because they are the offspring made up of the blessed ones of God, and their descendants with them.

24 And it will actually occur that before they call out I myself shall answer; while they are yet speaking, I myself shall hear.

25 “The wolf and the lamb themselves will feed as one, and the lion will eat straw just like the bull; and as for the serpent, his food will be dust. They will do no harm nor cause any ruin in all my holy mountain,” God has said.

And my point is further confirmed in Isaiah 26 verse 10

Amplified
Though favor is shown to the wicked, yet they do not learn righteousness; in the land of uprightness they deal perversely and refuse to see the majesty of the Lord.

NSB
Grace (favor) is shown to the wicked, but they do not learn righteousness. In a land of uprightness they go on doing evil and do not regard the majesty of Jehovah.

This clearly shows the second chances that will be given to people, and yet some will still refuse to do good and practice evil.

And John 5 28&29
Don’t be so surprised! Indeed, the time is coming when all the dead in their graves will hear the voice of God’s Son, 29 and they will rise again. Those who have done good will rise to experience eternal life, and those who have continued in evil will rise to experience judgment.

[edit on 27-4-2009 by Blue_Jay33]

Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
reply to post by Ragnarok691

 

Here is the thing, similar experiences seem to be had by people that are on the cusp of death, people that even believe as I do have had that experience.

When close to death or clinical death and revival the brain begins to play games, like life flashes, bright lights, dreams and nightmares. I am not saying that these things aren't being experienced, just that they aren't a reflection of true reality beyond actual death itself.

You know the questions raised in my spirit about the whole post brain activity idea you usually hear from doctors are....

1)I would ask them if there is no heaven, nor hell with a pleasant light/love, or fear/torment experience. Then why is it so real, that for those who share the heaven experience say they did not want to return to an earthly body if they went to heaven or interacted with Jesus(God)? And for those that had the Hell experience, so frightened that they begged for a second chance, changed the way they lived life afterwards, and some even get into ministry?

2)Had they ever taken notice that all things are CONSTANT. For those that have the experience it was either one place or another and so real they can assure you that it was no dream. We all know that when you have a dream, somehow during the dream you may know your dreaming, and if not definitely when you awake. It is also usually in segments and not continous. Whispy maybe dull and not always solid plus vivid. If you had a bad dream you know that's all it was, move on. For those that "went to hell" it stuck with them. Now if it's just post brain activity (or a dream like state), then why is no one claiming they went to other planets, the outer reaches of the universe, saw a Pegasus, Unicorns, Trolls, Elves, Leprechauns, or orange stars, pink hearts, yellow moons, green clovers, blue diamonds, or purple horseshoes???

If I didn't believe, it would cause me to say it's real.


[edit on 15-5-2009 by Cheroqui]

[edit on 15-5-2009 by Cheroqui]

Whether you have seen it before or not, some may want to take a look see at these...

Hell Exp

Hell Exp 2
He has a more detailed clip on YouTube, but it's in segments. If you do a little dig you can find a Full Length vid.

Very dumb how god would send people to hell for not believing in him/her/it when he/she/it does not show any proof for existence.