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Waterboarding thwarted attack on Los Angeles

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posted on Apr, 23 2009 @ 12:55 PM
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reply to post by nixie_nox
 


I didn't volunteer to be tortured.

If things like putting people under water for 20-40 seconds is torture then I was tortured by the government for 8 weeks.

Also, they chose to involve themselves in a plot that killed thousands of Americans.

It seems some people on this board care more about wether the terrorist are in the room with a bug than American lives.

This is silly and dangerous.

I spent days with bugs during basic training and when I was at Ft. Campbell. Air Assault training is worse than anything in this memo.

If this is tortured, then I was tortured for 8 weeks in basic and my time at Ft. Campbell.




posted on Apr, 23 2009 @ 12:58 PM
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Verd_Vhett you need to turn on spell check and stop drinking before you type out your drivel.

Grover. There is no sense in showing them that the basis of this thread is incorrect. I did that on page 4 of this thread and the torture mongers ignored it. Apparently we had time travel capabilities in 02 that allowed us to get that info out of KSM in 03 and then go back and stop the plans in 02 again.



posted on Apr, 23 2009 @ 01:05 PM
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Originally posted by observer

Originally posted by jd140
Torture can be an effictive tool if used properly.

For example.

If we have in our custody someone who is known with 100% certaintly that he has info that could save lives and he will not talk. Then yes resorting to waterboarding or other pyscological torture should be used. If we know the gist of what is going on then the info given can be compared to our intelligance and we could know if he is giving accurate info or not. Kind of like at a crime scene. The police release info on a crime, but hold a few important details back so that any info given to them can be screened to see if the info is valid.



I would argue that this could never happen. Unless you are an omnipotent Godhead, you are unable to know with 100% accuracy if someone "knows something" and odds are that if you do you don't need to torture them to extract information because, as predicted by the logic of the argument, you ALREADY KNOW with 100% certainty that something is happening. Hence you already know what that thing is? So what is the point of the torture again?

To RRConservative. You said in a post that this conduct was not torture but "enhanced interrogation" techniques. I hate to break ti to you but even in SERE training it is considered torture. Only an Orwellian twist of verbiage gives you enhanced interrogation techniques; which for the record, is EXACTLY what the Nazi's called their torture "Verschaerfte Vernehmung" translated into enhanched interrogation techniques. Last I read, we hanged these guys at Nuremberg for their crimes. (Which were obviously worst than what we are dealing with here, but call this what it is and don't hide behind eloquent locution).

As for this whole thread... it is demonstrably false!
Never happened!
IS A LIE, even!

Since the leader of the cell was captured in 2002 and the plot was disrupted and broken up in late 2002. BUT KSM was captured in... oh... MARCH 2003.

Edited to add an article from the LA Times regarding this issue written in 2005

So, saying that waterboarding him 183 times extracted this information needed to foil the LA tower plot is a provably blatant lie.

BTW: I used President Bush's own White House news releases to nail this down.

Obs out

[edit on 22-4-2009 by observer]


You do know how terrorist cells work? You know that there are cells within cells? Perhaps you should reread your post, and perhaps you should reread the articles and realise that just because he was a leader (probably of the DA cell), doesn't mean he was the cell leader (oversees the DA cell, intel cell, logistical/supply cell, etc). KSM and the cell leader were not the same person, so yes. They were arrested at two different dates. Once you have been trained to know how terrorist cells work and operate, you will realize that this sounds completely logical. Also... the LA cell leader would have lived in LA (or wherever he was captured), and KSM was living in Afghanistan, iirc.

Do research. Don't just spew rhetoric.



posted on Apr, 23 2009 @ 01:11 PM
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reply to post by Highground
 


It's not rhetoric it is an understanding of the linear nature of TIME. If the plot was busted in 2002 and we did not capture of waterboard KSM until 2003 it is LITERALLY IMPOSSIBLE for the waterboarding of KSM to have provided the information to break up the 2002 L.A. terror plot.
Can you explain to me how this is rhetoric?
I never said "I know how terror cells work." I just read a timeline, it's not rocket science.

Obs out



posted on Apr, 23 2009 @ 01:43 PM
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Originally posted by observer
reply to post by Highground
 


It's not rhetoric it is an understanding of the linear nature of TIME. If the plot was busted in 2002 and we did not capture of waterboard KSM until 2003 it is LITERALLY IMPOSSIBLE for the waterboarding of KSM to have provided the information to break up the 2002 L.A. terror plot.
Can you explain to me how this is rhetoric?
I never said "I know how terror cells work." I just read a timeline, it's not rocket science.

Obs out


Okay, let's try this again.

In 2002, the CELL LEADER was captured. This led to the cell believing the plot was over, and the cell was disbanded. Fast forward to March 2003. KSM was captured, and revealed the intended target of the 2002 attack, LA. I don't recall anyone saying that waterboarding KSM helped take down the cell, just that he revealed the target location. In the press conference you so gladly posted, it reveals that KSM was the chief of operations at the time. Arresting him wouldn't have affected the operation, anyway, unless it was before it was planned. If you read the press conference, you would have been given a very clear and concise timeline to go by. If you read the article that was posted, it says that his info led to the shutdown of an AQ cell in Asia, not the actual attacks. The title is more than a little misleading, and I have a feeling the story was sensationalized, but anyone other than that website does not even hint that his capture resulted in the attack being "thwarted." The several government websites you linked said that it was the cell leader being arrested that did it, and that he just provided what was supposed to have happened and names after the fact, which lead to a recruiter and others in SE Asia being arrested.

edit: Whups, missed the first part of the article. It does say that he was crucial in stopping the attack, but considering the "CIA" contacted this website, and no other, leads me to believe the article is BS.

[edit on 23-4-2009 by Highground]



posted on Apr, 23 2009 @ 01:51 PM
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Platosallegory, I'm calling you out!

""If this was torture then I was tortured at basic training for 8 weeks. Air Assault school is worse than anything I've seen in these memo's (101st). ""


Ah Ha! Gotcha! I'm calling you out platosallegory! Yes you! Yor full of it.
I knew it!
I aksed you 3 simple questions yesterday on this (similar) thread yesterday:
Where did you go 2 basic?
What's your MOS?
And ( :lol what was your "field exercise" REALLY called in basic?


You ingonered. Now I know why.

You were never in the Army. A soldier knows another soldier....one of the first things they instill in your head is "SUCK IT UP SOLDIER." and yet you were fussing about doing push-ups in the rain and being near bugs.
I don't think so. A soldier wouldn't complain about stupid sh*it like tis bro.

How do I know you weren't in the Army?

FORT CAMPBELL DOES NOT DO BASIC TRAINING!!
Here's a list of bases that do basic training in US ARMY.

Fort Benning, GA (where I went) 11Bravo in da house! Hua!
Fort Jackson, SC
Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri
Fort Sill, OK (home of artllery)
and last but not least......Fort Knox, KY

Ohhhhhhhh, and 101st is AIRBORNE not AIR ASSAULT!!

I was in 95, and you had to be atleat an E-3 (at that time) to even consider Air Assault.

LIAR LIAR LIAR! SHAME ON YOU!

As a veteran of 82nd Airborne, and I'll speak for the rest of the vets here...shame on you. Embarrasing yourself, and the United States Army.

Leg.

Your credibility is shot kid. Sorry I called you out, but I had to.


*Airborne!*



posted on Apr, 23 2009 @ 02:05 PM
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reply to post by Ben Niceknowinya
 


I'll repeat myself becuse you don't have a clue as to what your talking about.

You are making yourself look silly.

I never said I went to Ft. Campbell for basic. I talked about Air Assault school.

You don't know what you're talking about if you don't know that Ft. Campbell has Air Assault school.

The 101st Airborne Division — the "Screaming Eagles"— is a U.S. Army modular infantry division trained for air assault operations.

The Sabalauski Air Assault School, named after Command Sergeant Major Walter James Sabalauski is located here. Courses taught include Air Assault, Pathfinder, Pre-Ranger, Jumpmaster Refresher, and Rappel Master. FRIES/SPIES Master courses are also taught. The school is also home to the Division’s Parachute Demonstration Team.

en.wikipedia.org...

I was at Ft. Lee before that for AIT and I went to Leonard Wood for basic.

I was a 76V then it merged into 92A. This is supply because I'm sure you don't know what this means if you didn't know Ft. Campbell did Air Assault.

Do you even know what Air Assault is?

Do you know the difference between Airborne and Air Assault?

This is what liberals do when they can't debate the issue.



posted on Apr, 23 2009 @ 02:05 PM
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reply to post by Ben Niceknowinya
 

I agree that it doesn't sound like he was in the same Army I'm in, and I don't want to sound belligerent, but 101st is probably the most premier Air Assault unit in the army. 82nd is considered the Airborne unit (at least now). I also can't see where he said he went to Campbell. Don't get me wrong, he does not sound as if he ever went through any type of military training, much less Basic Combat Training, but I also don't see where some of your accusations fit in, either.

And I'm just an old fobbit (35F). Thanks for doing the hard part, you're the reason the sky's blue!



posted on Apr, 23 2009 @ 02:13 PM
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Originally posted by Dark Soldier
[quote
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. moveon.org just killed all credibility you just had ever.




actually, i'd rather not argue about moveon since it's not the issue here. they have a page that was sent to me. it is set up to send your greivances straight to the department of justice. that is the issue here.

i received a confirmation from the department of justice that they had received my email.

you can go there or justice.gov... to key in your complaint.

unless of course you don't have one.



posted on Apr, 23 2009 @ 02:16 PM
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Originally posted by Highground
reply to post by Ben Niceknowinya
 

I agree that it doesn't sound like he was in the same Army I'm in, and I don't want to sound belligerent, but 101st is probably the most premier Air Assault unit in the army. 82nd is considered the Airborne unit (at least now). I also can't see where he said he went to Campbell. Don't get me wrong, he does not sound as if he ever went through any type of military training, much less Basic Combat Training, but I also don't see where some of your accusations fit in, either.

And I'm just an old fobbit (35F). Thanks for doing the hard part, you're the reason the sky's blue!


This whole post doesn't make sense.

Air Assault is at FT. Campbell.

So yes I went through 8 weeks of basic at Leonard Wood and then I went to AIT at Ft. Lee Virginia. Next it was Ft. Campbell 101st, between Clarksville, TN and Oak Grove Kentucky and about 45 minutes from Nashville.

We used to drive up there on weekends to party.

I was a 76V which switched to 92A. This is supply.

I think he's the one that was never in the service if he doesn't know that Ft. Campbell does Air Assault.

I think this is a diversion though because you can't debate the issue. So you want to try and make it about me LOL.

This is what happens when you take an illogical position that this is torture.



posted on Apr, 23 2009 @ 03:10 PM
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Originally posted by platosallegory

Originally posted by Highground
reply to post by Ben Niceknowinya
 

I agree that it doesn't sound like he was in the same Army I'm in, and I don't want to sound belligerent, but 101st is probably the most premier Air Assault unit in the army. 82nd is considered the Airborne unit (at least now). I also can't see where he said he went to Campbell. Don't get me wrong, he does not sound as if he ever went through any type of military training, much less Basic Combat Training, but I also don't see where some of your accusations fit in, either.

And I'm just an old fobbit (35F). Thanks for doing the hard part, you're the reason the sky's blue!


This whole post doesn't make sense.

Air Assault is at FT. Campbell.

So yes I went through 8 weeks of basic at Leonard Wood and then I went to AIT at Ft. Lee Virginia. Next it was Ft. Campbell 101st, between Clarksville, TN and Oak Grove Kentucky and about 45 minutes from Nashville.

We used to drive up there on weekends to party.

I was a 76V which switched to 92A. This is supply.

I think he's the one that was never in the service if he doesn't know that Ft. Campbell does Air Assault.

I think this is a diversion though because you can't debate the issue. So you want to try and make it about me LOL.

This is what happens when you take an illogical position that this is torture.


You posted your shpeel while I posted that. I was responding to his post. Make sense now?

edit: And about me not wanting to debate the issue? I've posted several times in this thread and in the other thread that was recently created debating torture, and I have had basically the same stance you have. I have debated the issue.

[edit on 23-4-2009 by Highground]



posted on Apr, 23 2009 @ 08:47 PM
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Originally posted by nixie_nox

Originally posted by Logarock

Originally posted by nixie_nox
reply to post by Logarock
 


Sorry but I am not going to condone the torture of terrorists or anyone else to prevent an attack.

Flame away but they are not the worst things to happen to Americans.

More people die of pneumonia, lightning strikes, car accidents

And if you continue to see yourself morally short because of it then you have been truley terrorized. To harm people for information is simply bringing us down to their level.



Well I understand your position so am not going to flame away.

As far as morally short or whatever none of this type thinking, in a case like this, really enters into it for me. I really wouldn't get a kick out of it or do it to feed some thing I have. I would approach this like I would if a pit bull had my child in its mouth and refused to let go. Thats really it. Not becouse I am a sadist or something. Some would be trying to distract the dog with milk bone or something as if that going to work but hay at least they didn't get down on the dogs level. Others would complain about the treatment of the dog and demand that the dog whisperer be brought in. Meanwhile....

[edit on 22-4-2009 by Logarock]

[edit on 22-4-2009 by Logarock]


There are other ways to handle issues like this without resorting to torture. A lot of those pit bulls do attack because they were tortured, so we may only be compounding the issue.

Here is what most people don't get. Osama bin Laden, didn't hate Americans. He has been here to visit several times and sent his kids to go to school here. The people who met him said he felt like he was in Oz, but there was not visible dislike or hatred.

it is the policies they don't like, not western life as many Americans think.

9/11 happened on Tuesday, theh sloweste flying day, on election day,w hen most people were out of the buildings voting. They minimized as much as possible the casualties.

So this issued needs to be solved diplomatically, not toruturing members to prevent another attack. This is only curbing a symptom, not solving the problem.

Just like if pit bull rings were eradictated and homeowners are taught responsible dog ownership, you minimize the attacks.



Fine fine we should have put the guys up in better digs cooked them their favorite meals showed them we were not all that bad. And you know maybe that would have worked.

But listen, I am not going to take the responsibility for my neighbors miss treatment of his dogs at the point where the thing is in kill mode. Sure we can work on making sure other dogs in the area are handled properly but not when one is off the hook. It gets put out of its misery on the spot in the act. Letting some guy work out his difficulties by murdering non combatants like he is acting out and then when his tantrum is over maybe we can bring him around. Forget about reasoning at that point. The guys at this point, the crazy dog point, can hardly expect to garner an sympathy for their position. They have made up their mind to exercise their grievances by murdering.

Some people tried to reason with Hitler early on and he simply used concessions to gain more steam. Holocaust was the result.





[edit on 23-4-2009 by Logarock]



posted on Apr, 23 2009 @ 10:10 PM
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This alleged attack on LA is being reported by msm as thwarted in 2002.

The "terrorist" you see as a boogieman was reported by msm as captured by Pakistan's ISI in 2003.

Kinda difficult to claim torturing someone in 2003 led to thwarting an attack in 2002, don't you think?

Do conservatives peek under their bed for monsters at night, too?

Have a nice day, and try your nonsense on someone with a double-digit IQ, like a Republican.



posted on Apr, 23 2009 @ 10:18 PM
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Originally posted by Wildbob77
War is a dirty messy business.

In reality, there are no rules for war craft. To win, you kill more of the enemy before the enemy kills you.

I'm sure that many of the techniques that are being discussed in the main stream media are very unpleasant.

However, when you consider the people that you're trying to get information from, perhaps it is worth it. You just need to make sure that you identify the correct scum bucket before you add water.


Yes, torture the suspects....

The US Homeland Security Department, under fire for saying US forces returning from the Iraq and Afghan wars were potential right-wing extremist recruits, said Wednesday it honors US veterans. Who's the enemy

Be careful what side you pick.



posted on Apr, 23 2009 @ 10:27 PM
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You are kidding, right? You people still believe what the MSM reports? LOL!

If Al Queda had plans to attack LA, the only reason why it would have been derailed is if the CIA and the Mossad were short on money to fund the operation.

The NWO is about to be rammed down your throats and you are still buying into this BULL!

Maybe depopulation is inevitable.



posted on Apr, 23 2009 @ 11:40 PM
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Originally posted by platosallegory

I think the left in this country are dangerous. We are dealing with guys who will cut off heads and try to kill as many americans as they can and they are complaining about a guy getting water on his head.

What good are some liberal ideals if we are blown to bits?

Being in a room with a bug is not torture. We can't play patty cake with these guys.

www.cnsnews.com
(visit the link for the full news article)

[edit on 21-4-2009 by platosallegory]


You are very wrong hun.. They were never found responible of the 9/11 attacks.. not even Usama Bin Laden

By the contrary the trture was applied to make them give false testimony about the participation of Iraq and Saddam Husseim as financists of the terrorists.

Soon you will know that it was Bush/Cheney and friends who commited the horrible act of treason against us in 9/11

So I don't think the keft is blind.

I think the right is not only blind but maybe complicit of the treasurous act against us.



posted on Apr, 23 2009 @ 11:51 PM
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Originally posted by paperplanes

Originally posted by godless
Right. This guy is part of a movement that has no shortage of people willing to drive an explosives-laden vehicle into a crowded marketplace and then detonating themselves, as well as everybody else in a 10 meter circle, but, if you threaten one of them with death-by-drowning, suddenly they are willling to renounce their religious fervor and spill everything to the interrogators of "The Great Satan".


Isn't it curious?

I haven't seen this posted yet. Those of you who support waterboarding as "torture-lite" might find this video enlightening. Christopher Hitchens, a strong defender of the idea that waterboarding does not constitute torture, was approached by contrarians to participate in his own waterboarding--you know, just to see if it really wasn't that bad. His reaction to the treatment is interesting to see. And just look--he gets to say "enough!" (quite quickly, I might add).

Watch Christopher Hitchens Get Waterboarded


[edit on 22/4/09 by paperplanes]


Thanks for this video link, was hilarious how quickly he tapped out. He even mentions that after this experience he has had nightmares about it.

Sean Hannity joked the other night on Fox News that he would be willing to be waterboarded to prove that it isn't torture, too bad he was only joking.



posted on Apr, 24 2009 @ 12:37 AM
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post removed because the user has no concept of manners

Click here for more information.



posted on Apr, 24 2009 @ 01:46 AM
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I have a couple of problems with the use of torture. First, it is not applied to terrorists, it is applied to terror *suspects*. That would be just about anyone the authorities decided they didn't like, which could mean you. Probably not, but it's not unheard of for power to be misused.

The other objection I have is that by resorting to terror, we descend to the level of the terrorists. We have allowed fear to turn us away from what is fitting and proper. Whn we do this, the terrorists have won.



posted on Apr, 24 2009 @ 02:07 AM
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I think you pro tortue folk on here may be in for a taste of your own medicine as the police state apperatus swings back upon you, the US citizenry, or 'domestic terrorists', for who it was actually designed for.

You reap what you sow.



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