Waterboarding thwarted attack on Los Angeles

Originally posted by sos37
If Americans were asked, the December following the 2001 attacks, if they thought waterboarding was an acceptable technique to find the people responsible and prevent future atttacks on the country, the percentage answering YES would be MUCH higher than it is today. Of that, I am ABSOLUTELY certain.

The people in this country disgust me at how quickly patriotism fades from their personality. Mainstream voters ride the wave of whatever is popular, and right now it is still popular to hate the previous administration. THAT is what drives this issue - not what's right, not some Americans who act like they give a damn about the rights of captured terrorists, but PURE HATE for the likes of Bush, Cheney and Rice.

Argue all you want, but none of you have definitive proof to prove the government wrong when it says that information gained from waterboarding did prevent an attack on Los Angeles. Maybe you or someone you know or even care for is still alive because of that tip. Keep that in mind before you attempt to grace the rest of us with your "benevolent vision" of just how wrong torture is.

[edit on 22-4-2009 by sos37]

You might be right that many American's would have said it was ok to waterboard terror suspects in December 2001. But that does not mean it is a correct decision. Basing our laws and ideals on raw emotion is about as dangerous as you can get.

It is not PURE HATE for the Bush administration. It is pure hate for what they did to our beloved Constitution, period. If you are unable to see what was done in our name and NOT be appalled then one of us not to interested in rule of law, guess who? (hint: it's not me).

I HAVE definitive proof that waterboarding KSM was ineffective. I made a whole post on it. You just either did not read it or ignored it. This premise is a fallacy.

Obs out

it wasnt ineffective. they stopped the "plots".

and you know what? im glad they were waterboarded and im glad it happened and there is nothing you could do about it.. if the attack on LA happened you same people would be saying "wow the CIA planned this attack, it was a black op for Bush to invade "whateveristan".

How about this. obama stops: Shaking hands with dictators, bowing to saudi kings, reading anti american books, going to racist anti american church's, stops his socialism spreading cancer, and then we can talk about torture, because id rather be waterboarded then live in Obama's fantasy world where i can sit on the beach and collect money from the taxe's of people that actually make a living.

I wonder if we should torture every high school student to avoid another Colombine incident. Pre-emptive torture. Maybe we should torture every driver to find out who the speeders are.

Originally posted by earthman4
I wonder if we should torture every high school student to avoid another Colombine incident. Pre-emptive torture. Maybe we should torture every driver to find out who the speeders are.

Boy you went off the other end of the slippery slope. There's a world of difference between a Muslim extremist hell-bent on destroying America and some punk kid speeding in a car or some kid with mental problems thinking of shooting up a school. The mindset of each is completely apples and oranges.

Originally posted by earthman4
I wonder if we should torture every high school student to avoid another Colombine incident. Pre-emptive torture. Maybe we should torture every driver to find out who the speeders are.

Again these are NOT U.S. citizens...They are enemy combatants picked up on the battlefield. Why would you torture a U.S. citizen that is protected under the constitution of the United States? Your comparing apples to oranges and saying they are the same thing. I find it funny that no politicians where concerned with torture until it became a hot button issue...pathetic...at best.

Originally posted by earthman4
I wonder if we should torture every high school student to avoid another Colombine incident. Pre-emptive torture. Maybe we should torture every driver to find out who the speeders are.

Torture is also proven to be quite effective in the detection of witches. The historical record proves this...

From Wikipedia: In Early Modern Europe, in Italy, it was found particularly effective to deprive an accused witch of sleep for periods of up to forty hours. The induced insomnia would eventually cause the prisoner's mind to cloud, eventually leading to the breaking of their will. Without damaging the body, countless confessions were given to the authorities so the young woman could finally be allowed to get some sleep. This technique was also utilized in England, but without a limitation on time.

Accused witches were also forced to watch the trials and tortures of their fellow accused. Upon witnessing the horrible treatment of their peers, some would confess in order to spare themselves of equal treatment.

*Many women confessed to being witches during torture. Witches must therefore be real; They even confessed - what more does one need.

These witch hunts were preemptive strikes against suspected covens. Think of the lives saved from such heroic efforts on behalf of the brave American settlers (such as those Patriots from Salem); those men saved lives that would otherwise have been ruined by curses, hexes and the various other religious practices.

[edit on 23-4-2009 by Exuberant1]

reply to post by observer


There are 2 issues here:

1. The issue of waterboarding as torture
2. The issue of Americans actually giving a damn about the Constitution instead of themselves for a change

On the latter, you cannot convince me that a majority of the Americans screaming "foul" about this whole waterboarding mess are doing so because they are incensed at seeing Constitutional rights stamped into the ground. There's absolutely no way that's true. The American public has proven time and again that they care only for themselves. This is a selfish country that rides the wave of popularity. The majority goes wherever the media tells them to go. They think however celebrities tell them to think.

The folks here on ATS are an exception - there are many individuals and free thinkers here who actually think outside the box, who put 2 and 2 together - which is what brings most of us here in the first place - to seek those answers. I find that a majority of people here on ATS, myself included, love the Constitution and love this country.

But the rest of America? Totally stupid, like livestock. Were it not for the likes of Jon Stewart, Michael Moore, Oprah and other Hollywood celebrities and news outlets telling them how to think a majority of the people in this country would be mindless drones without an alliance. Right now, they're just mindless drones.

That being said, I personally would rather see the rights of some extremist, who is bent on destroying this country, violated than uphold some higher-ground stand on ethics and watch as entire cities burn. We here at ATS woke up and started thinking for ourselves - I have faith that one day the rest of America can too.

i'm telling you... this tidbit of info is just the tip of the iceberg. this i believe is pervasive in the backrooms.

remember abu ghraib? if it were not for the photos that got released, none of the investigations would have taken place. don't forget that. www.antiwar.com...

what about all the trashed documents on the mkultra and those of like programs? what about the trashed tapes a year or so ago.

come on people. this isn't about the torture of a few individuals that i am upset about. i suspect many other americans feel the same way.

go here and make your voice heard:

pol.moveon.org...

the department of justice will get your letter and send a confirmation back to you.

Originally posted by miasria
i'm telling you... this tidbit of info is just the tip of the iceberg. this i believe is pervasive in the backrooms.

remember abu ghraib? if it were not for the photos that got released, none of the investigations would have taken place. don't forget that. www.antiwar.com...

what about all the trashed documents on the mkultra and those of like programs? what about the trashed tapes a year or so ago.

come on people. this isn't about the torture of a few individuals that i am upset about. i suspect many other americans feel the same way.

go here and make your voice heard:

pol.moveon.org...

the department of justice will get your letter and send a confirmation back to you.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. moveon.org just killed all credibility you just had ever.

I do hope no one believes this story... water boarding thwarted an attack?!
It stinks so much like pro-torture propaganda that only the most retarded
people would believe this rubbish. Do they really think that the population
is THAT stupid?!

Originally posted by Logarock

Originally posted by nixie_nox
reply to post by Logarock

 

Sorry but I am not going to condone the torture of terrorists or anyone else to prevent an attack.

Flame away but they are not the worst things to happen to Americans.

More people die of pneumonia, lightning strikes, car accidents

And if you continue to see yourself morally short because of it then you have been truley terrorized. To harm people for information is simply bringing us down to their level.

Well I understand your position so am not going to flame away.

As far as morally short or whatever none of this type thinking, in a case like this, really enters into it for me. I really wouldn't get a kick out of it or do it to feed some thing I have. I would approach this like I would if a pit bull had my child in its mouth and refused to let go. Thats really it. Not becouse I am a sadist or something. Some would be trying to distract the dog with milk bone or something as if that going to work but hay at least they didn't get down on the dogs level. Others would complain about the treatment of the dog and demand that the dog whisperer be brought in. Meanwhile....

[edit on 22-4-2009 by Logarock]

[edit on 22-4-2009 by Logarock]

There are other ways to handle issues like this without resorting to torture. A lot of those pit bulls do attack because they were tortured, so we may only be compounding the issue.

Here is what most people don't get. Osama bin Laden, didn't hate Americans. He has been here to visit several times and sent his kids to go to school here. The people who met him said he felt like he was in Oz, but there was not visible dislike or hatred.

it is the policies they don't like, not western life as many Americans think.

9/11 happened on Tuesday, theh sloweste flying day, on election day,w hen most people were out of the buildings voting. They minimized as much as possible the casualties.

So this issued needs to be solved diplomatically, not toruturing members to prevent another attack. This is only curbing a symptom, not solving the problem.

Just like if pit bull rings were eradictated and homeowners are taught responsible dog ownership, you minimize the attacks.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^



agree with you 100%. we need to be diplomatic with terrorists that only care about their own religion and cutting peoples heads off, they are willing to work with us


/sarcasm


[edit on 23-4-2009 by Dark Soldier]

Didn't Jesus Christ say:
"Don't do anything to another, that you don't want be done to yourself?"

Americans, you are a Christian nation, why have you abandoned the
teachings of Jesus Christ? The amount of people on this forum that
call themselves a Christian, but ignore everything Jesus Christ has
said, is staggering. How have you become such ignorant hypocrites?

reply to post by platosallegory


The difference is that you volunteered.

You volunteered for it. Thank you for your service, but it is not fair to force it on people.

someone comes into my house, takes my child, and starts dunking their head under water and you can be sure that their heads are gonna roll.

that is what boot camp is about, to prepare you for such things. But if you take mr soccer dad from his kids game, because you thought he yelled too much so that made him suspicious, and waterboarded him 186 times. THAT is torture.

Another confirmation of the claim of thwarting a 2002 attack on LA being bogus.

www.chicagotribune.com...

The Bush administration claimed that the waterboarding of Khalid Shaikh Mohammed helped foil a planned 2002 attack on Los Angeles -- forgetting that he wasn't captured until 2003.

reply to post by sos37


You said

On the latter, you cannot convince me that a majority of the Americans screaming "foul" about this whole waterboarding mess are doing so because they are incensed at seeing Constitutional rights stamped into the ground. There's absolutely no way that's true. The American public has proven time and again that they care only for themselves. This is a selfish country that rides the wave of popularity. The majority goes wherever the media tells them to go. They think however celebrities tell them to think.

So what should one derive from this comment? That you love America but think that we are all stupid idiots? If you think all Americans (yourself excluded of course) then why would you be bother to "protect" us with your torture regime?
Also, I never claimed to to be speaking "for America". I am speaking for me. I also doubt that most right headed people are only now outraged. Speaking for me, I have been railing against this since Abu Graihb. This is, again for me, one of the central issues of the day. This fight ain't the cause du jour, it's the defining issue of the Gen Xer's and our legacy for the country, how we handle this will liken how we are remembered.

I find that a majority of people here on ATS, myself included, love the Constitution and love this country.

Can I assume that that means that since myself and others on this board are against torture that we are against the Constitution? I don't follow the point of this comment.

But the rest of America? Totally stupid, like livestock. Were it not for the likes of Jon Stewart, Michael Moore, Oprah and other Hollywood celebrities and news outlets telling them how to think a majority of the people in this country would be mindless drones without an alliance. Right now, they're just mindless drones.

Then why on earth do you care about America? You seem awfully full of vitriol towards those who you also argue are being protected by torture.
Also, you forgot to add those who sit and watch Hannity, O'Reilly and the legions of dittoheads who sit slack jawed awaiting the next two minute hate.

If ever you read the Constitution of anything by the founding fathers that indicates an appreciation of torture would you please forward it on the rest of us. Because I have a fairly firm understanding the U.S.'s past and never ever have I seen a passage saying that torture was freedom.

Orwell out

Liberal Interigation

Liberal Int: Hellow Mr Terrorist, how are you today?

Terrorist: Die Infidell!

Liberal Int: Now thats not very nice! would you like a cold drink?

Terrorist: Die Infidell!

Liberal Int: Perhaps you just woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning, No worries I am sure (insert Possible target here) is in no danger, we can discuss this after your morning massage!

two hours later!

Liberal Int: feeling better, I sure hope so, wouldn't want you to think of this as a prison or anything, not at all this is just a summer camp.

Terrorist: Spits in Interorgators face!

Liberal Int: Gaurd! you must be abusing this man, sir has this gaurd been abusing you, perhaps you would like to write out a report? Gaurd bring me a pen and paper!

Gaurd: what for?

Liberal Int: so this man can write a formal complaint about you abusing him!

gaurd: but sir I never laid a hand on him!

Liberal Int: you must have or he would not be so angry with me!

gaurd: well sir I dont think it is a good idea to give him a Pen to write with.

Liberal Int: what do you know!

Guard returns with pen and paper.

Gaurd: here you go sir but....

liberal Int: but nothing! now here you go you write down what the Mean old gaurd did to you and I will see he is punished.

Liberal Int hands terrorst pen and paper.

Terrorist: ALL PRAISE ALLAH! Stabs Liberal Interigator in Kneck.

A nuke was detinated today in (Insert city here) the Obama administration apologizes to the middle east for pissign them off so much!

Gitmo was not a summer camp, it was a prison, and the interigation techneqes used worked you cant just blow sunshine up these peoples buts and use care bear tacktics, they beleive they are doing gods work.

I think waterboarding and using their fears agianst them is to soft, I say rip of fingernails, and make the scum live in cells with pigs!



[edit on 4/23/2009 by Verd_Vhett]

Originally posted by sos37

Originally posted by earthman4
I wonder if we should torture every high school student to avoid another Colombine incident. Pre-emptive torture. Maybe we should torture every driver to find out who the speeders are.

Boy you went off the other end of the slippery slope. There's a world of difference between a Muslim extremist hell-bent on destroying America and some punk kid speeding in a car or some kid with mental problems thinking of shooting up a school. The mindset of each is completely apples and oranges.

I see, if they have a different religion than you they deserve to be tortured. Speeders have killed hundreds more than terrorists. Use logic, it is patritoic.

In recent days, several Fox News hosts and contributors have advanced the claim by former Bush speechwriter Marc A. Thiessen that the use of harsh interrogation techniques -- including waterboarding -- on Khalid Shaikh Mohammed "stopped an attack on the Library Tower in Los Angeles." But the claim conflicts with the chronology of events put forth on multiple occasions by the Bush administration, as Slate.com's Timothy Noah has noted. Indeed, the Bush administration said that the Library Tower attack was thwarted in February 2002 -- more than a year before Mohammed was captured in March 2003.

mediamatters.org...

Once again the verity of faux news has been tried and found wanting.

Originally posted by Verd_Vhett
Gitmo was not a summer camp, it was a prison, and the interigation techneqes used worked you cant just blow sunshine up these peoples buts and use care bear tacktics, they beleive they are doing gods work.

I think waterboarding and using their fears agianst them is to soft, I say rip of fingernails, and make the scum live in cells with pigs!

OK, let's say that they did work, let's say they served their purpose and told us everything we wanted to know...

What now ?

What we do with them ?

What would be appropriate according to you ?

Put them on trial and under what law ? Keep them there indefinitely because we have no idea what to do next ? Let them go and where ? Kill them all ?

What is the exit strategy here ?

Or is it like with everything else we did in this illegal war (aggression), just go with the flow and see what happens ?