It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Waterboarding thwarted attack on Los Angeles

page: 7
6
<< 4  5  6    8  9  10 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Apr, 23 2009 @ 12:19 AM
link   

Originally posted by sos37
reply to post by Dark Soldier
 


Oh it gets better than that. Now captured terrorists will get the full protection of the U.S. Constitution! It starts with the guys at Guantanamo and next it will be extended to anypne captured during a time of war.

Next our generals will be told, "Let's not capture anyone anymore. In fact, we want you to use rubber bullets from now on to minimize enemy casualties."

BTW, Sean Penn is about as disgusting and anti-American as you can get, right down there with Jane Fonda. Since he wants to go live in Venezuela so badly, I say we send him on over.


and the best part, we get to pay for these terrorists while they attend our lovely jail cells. we get to pay for their food and comfort. i bet they showed the same comfort to daniel pearl in afghanistan.

Remember when Alec Baldwin said if GW bush won the election in 2000 that he would move out of the country? its been 9 years alec, having trouble selling your 30 room mansion?

[edit on 23-4-2009 by Dark Soldier]




posted on Apr, 23 2009 @ 12:25 AM
link   

Originally posted by Dark Soldier
and the best part, we get to pay for these terrorists while they attend our lovely jail cells. we get to pay for their food and comfort.


Not necessarily.

If found guilty in a non-military court, their crimes could warrant them a death sentence.

Have you ever served in the military?

[edit on 23-4-2009 by Exuberant1]



posted on Apr, 23 2009 @ 02:16 AM
link   
I looked at these memos and these things are not torture. I went through worse during basic training in the Army.

I remember doing drills in pouring rain for about 15-20 minutes. We were running in place and doing push ups. We also went on a field exercise in a storm and had to sleep on the side of the road in wet leaves and grass, It was so wet me and my battle buddy had to sleep back to back to avoid the wet ground.

Putting someones head under water for 20-40 seconds is nothing. This only happened to 3 or 4 terrorist and it led to some helpful information that stopped attacks in LA and New York.

Waterboarding, being put in a room with bugs or putting you in a cold room is not torture.

I had much worse happen to me during basic training. If you gave me a choice to be waterborded 20-40 seconds a day for 8 weeks vs basic training, you could waterboard me.

Think about what the Navy Seals go through. Here's some info:

Another important part of basic conditioning is drown-proofing. In this evolution, trainees must learn to swim with both their hands and their feet bound. To pass drown-proofing, trainees enter a 9-foot-deep pool and complete the following steps with their hands and feet tied:

bob for 5 minutes
float for 5 minutes
swim 100 meters
bob for 2 minutes
do some forward and backward flips
swim to the bottom of the pool and retrieve an object with their teeth
return to the surface and bob five more times

Another evolution is surf torture, also called "cold water conditioning."

science.howstuffworks.com...

To call the things in this memo torture is a danger to our country. This is not torture in any way, shape or form.

If liberals don't want waterboarding, loud music, bugs in room or any discomfort for terrorist that have information about future plans that could save lives, how will they get any information?

Say pretty please, can you give us some info? This is silly and dangerous.



posted on Apr, 23 2009 @ 02:42 AM
link   

Originally posted by platosallegory

Say pretty please, can you give us some info? This is silly and dangerous.


Wrong...

Torturing people is "silly and dangerous."

Inflicting cruel and unusual punishments is "silly and dangerous."

Not obeying the Constitution or refusing to act in affirmation of basis human rights is "silly and dangerous". Read the Bill of Rights.


*No one says "pretty please" anymore - Especially not Federal prosecutors.


[edit on 23-4-2009 by Exuberant1]



posted on Apr, 23 2009 @ 03:01 AM
link   
I still say we should start torturing everyone in the US to find out if any of them are criminals.

Maybe then people will start understanding why torture is illegal.



The "those people behead innocent people" argument doesn't hold water and you KNOW it!

It's not "those people" you're torturing...
You're using torture to find out IF they are in fact "Those people".


They don't know if their detainees are terrorists or not... that's why a common tool in interrogation was to show a blurry photo of some random people, and demand to know why you were meeting with this terrorist.

They're trying to find out if you are a terrorist or not.

If you think this method works... then as I said... lets start rounding up US communities, torture the heck out of everyone, and eventually a criminal will tell you something useful.


What?
Doesn't sound right?
Why? Because you're not them?

NEVER stoop down to the enemies level... if you do, you might as well eat the barrel of your own gun right now. Because now you ARE the enemy.

Just because they do horrible things to innocent people on suspicion, doesn't mean you should do horrible things to innocent people on suspicion.



posted on Apr, 23 2009 @ 03:05 AM
link   
reply to post by Exuberant1
 


What is cruel and unusual?

I was in pouring rain running in place and doing push ups for 15-20 minutes. Navy Seals has to swim in 9 feet of water with their hands and feet tied.

You mean to tell me sticking someones head under water for 20-40 seconds is cruel and unusual?

People stay under water longer at water parks.

The reason why waterboarding works is not because it's cruel and unusual, it's because the terrorist think they are being drowned. There's no danger of them being drowned in 20-40 seconds with a Doctor standing there to make sure things are okay.

This is why this is so silly and dangerous. Now the terrorist know that they are not being drowned and they could just hold their breath for 20-40 seconds.



posted on Apr, 23 2009 @ 03:09 AM
link   

Originally posted by johnsky
I still say we should start torturing everyone in the US to find out if any of them are criminals.

Maybe then people will start understanding why torture is illegal.


*You Nailed it, johnsky.


Are you a veteran?



posted on Apr, 23 2009 @ 03:18 AM
link   
reply to post by johnsky
 


Your not making any sense.

Under suspicion? Do you know who the people are that we waterboarded?

These people are not under suspicion. Some of them helped plan the 9/11 attacks. Some of the information led to saving lives in places like LA and New York.

You first have to prove that sticking someones head under water for 20 - 40 seconds is torture. Navy Seals go through 100 times worse.

Putting them in a room with a bug is not torture.

I had to sleep with bugs during field exercises. And your going to cry about this guy being in a room with bugs and he wants to behead as many of us as he can?

That's just silly.

How would you get information from terrorist to save lives? Would you play patty cake with them?

If you can't give them discomfort. You can't play loud music, put them in a room with bugs or a cold room. Do you actually believe your going to get info from these guys by just asking? You have to be living in la-la land.



posted on Apr, 23 2009 @ 03:24 AM
link   

Originally posted by platosallegory
Do you actually believe your going to get info from these guys by just asking? You have to be living in la-la land.


The Constitution and Bill of Rights does not allow for you to 'get info' from suspects by such means. Even International Law prohibits it.

You were never in the military; Your disdain for your country's Constitution and Bill of Rights and unwillingness to apply and adhere to them is indicative of possible deception in this regard.

[edit on 23-4-2009 by Exuberant1]



posted on Apr, 23 2009 @ 03:35 AM
link   
reply to post by platosallegory
 


Yeah, I do know. And if you did your research you would too.

Habeus Corpus petitions filed by many attorneys attempting to represent Guantanamo detainees caused the Defense department to declare about a quarter of the detainees files to be unclassified for review.


More than half of the detainees are not accused of taking up hostilities toward the US nor any of her allies.

The majority of the detainees are there due to "suspicion of association"... basically, they think the detainee knew someone who happened to be a terrorist... whether the detainee knew it or not.

Nice huh?
Wouldn't you like to be arrested and tortured without trial because someone you once knew decided to join the wrong side?


A minority of them are accused of having been in a war zone and as such, suspect of being an enemy combatant... unfortunately, only handful actually were... the rest were civilians.


There are also a few confessions that turned out to be false confessions, told to make the torture stop.



I'm sorry, but these people are clearly not the "beheading maniacs" you make them out to be.

Most are there because they were unfortunate to have known a beheading maniac at some point in their life.


It's a witch-hunt, clear as day.
They don't know who the terrorists are, so they decided to torture the heck out of people until they found someone who does.


I've got a suggestion for you...
... do research.

[edit on 23-4-2009 by johnsky]



posted on Apr, 23 2009 @ 03:43 AM
link   
reply to post by Exuberant1
 


By what means?

Where does the Constitution say you can't stick someones head under water for 20-40 seconds when American lives are at stake?

You're living in a fantasy world.

Would you rather we get blown to bits? How are you going to stop a terrorist if you can't get information?

You still have not answered the question.

What method will you use if you can't give them any discomfort?

This is not torture.

If this is torture then every Navy Seal or anyone who has served in the Armed Forces has been tortured by the government during basic training.

In a room with bugs?

In a field exercise, I had to sleep around bugs for days and you're going to cry for a guy that wants to behead as many of us as they can?



posted on Apr, 23 2009 @ 03:54 AM
link   
reply to post by johnsky
 


I'm not talking about more than half of the detainee's.

I'm talking about the 3 or 4 guys that were waterboarded that you are crying about.

We couldn't put these guys in the justice system after 9/11. We didn't know when or if a new attack was coming.

You are living in a fantasy world.

If we were to get attacked you would cry about being protected but when they do what they need to do to protect us, you cry and want to put them in jail.

How are you going to get info from these guys? Asking if they would please tellyou?

This makes no sense and this pre 9/11 mentality is dangerous. The terrorist have to be jumping for joy.

What's more important to you, saving American lives or protecting terrorist when we don't know what's coming?

I want to hear what methods you would use to get information from terrorist if we can't give them any discomfort.



posted on Apr, 23 2009 @ 04:00 AM
link   
reply to post by platosallegory
 


I'll tell you right now you're not cut out to be a soldier.
Complainig about being wet in boot camp? What did you expect?
Bed & Breakfast? It's the Army, not the boy scouts.....private!!|
What's your MOS anyway?
You're comparing torture to doing push-ups in the rain in basic. @@:
Then...
you're comparing torture to SEAL training.....dude, r u serious?


Maybe consider posting something about the harshness of being on the swim team, and how it's relative to torturing people. Or swimming pool parties in the summer time. What about puddles? Or waterslides?
Any other "wet" ideas?

Let's be rational.

And why should I be labeled as a bloddy liberal because I question the nature and legitimacy of torturing other humans.?
btw....I was in the Army 2. So, far from liberal, and dare call me unpatriotic.


I was stationed in Bragg. Part of some training we did was resisting torture. We went thru very brief phases, even waterboarding.
(BTW, if anyone's getting waterboarded it's longer than 40 seconds)
Let me tell you. Not fun. Not human.

The chances of you dying from terrorism is about as likely as you getting eaten by a shark.
You're selling out your values over fear my friend.
We're supposed to be a good nation. Of good people.
Now we are labeled as terrorist threats and end up on some list if you decided to protest something you felt was important, for your country.


The sooner you realize you're the terrorist (or that the terrorists don't really exist), the sooner you will be at peace.

And don't put on that UN patch!

*Airborne*



posted on Apr, 23 2009 @ 04:04 AM
link   

Originally posted by platosallegory
reply to post by johnsky
 


I'm not talking about more than half of the detainee's.

I'm talking about the 3 or 4 guys that were waterboarded that you are crying about.



I'm sorry, you must have been carrying on the conversation in your head without me...

What 3 or 4 guys?

I've been talking about torture.



posted on Apr, 23 2009 @ 04:22 AM
link   
reply to post by Ben Niceknowinya
 


You keep saying torture.

You are living in a fantasy world if you think being put under water for 20-40 seconds is torture.

That's absurd.

My point is, Navy Seals stay under water and go through harsher training than anyone in these memos.

It's just simple logic.

If you're going to call it torture it has to be worse than what people go through in basic training.

This is liberal nonsense. Staying under water 20-40 seconds with a Doctor on stanby is not torture.

Again, the liberals are not answering how they would get information from the terrorist if they can't cause them any discomfort.

I have asked several times and there's no answer.

If you can't play loud music, waterboard, talk to them loud, put them in a cold room or a room with bugs, how will you get information from them to save lives?



posted on Apr, 23 2009 @ 04:24 AM
link   

Originally posted by platosallegory

Where does the Constitution say you can't stick someones head under water for 20-40 seconds when American lives are at stake?


So you do not even know the constitution you allegedly took an Oath to uphold and defend....

Read the Eight Amendment - Then read the rest of the Constitution and followed by a reading of the Bill of Rights.

*Then you can start to read the transcripts from Nuremburg trials wherein you will soon find out what the punishment is for the things you condone and support.

See also;

-Section 2340 of the federal criminal code

-The Fifth, Eighth, and Fourteenth Amendments.

-The Supreme Court’s 1952 ruling in Rochin v. California, and Ingraham v. Wright (1977)

-The International Convention on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR) and the U.N. Convention Against Torture and Cruel, Inhuman and Degrading Treatments (UNCAT), which were ratified by the U.S. in 1992 and 1994, respectively.



This is liberal nonsense. Staying under water 20-40 seconds with a Doctor on stanby is not torture.


...And that doctor would be guilty of a criminal offense. During a time of war, such a doctor would be classified as a War Criminal.


*Why are you so insistent on referring to Strict Constitutionalism as ”liberal nonsense”?

Are you doing it in attempt to rationalize your support for torture?

[edit on 23-4-2009 by Exuberant1]



posted on Apr, 23 2009 @ 04:30 AM
link   
I seem to remember the alleged LA bombing plot was debunked by the intelligence community years ago. It didn't stop the likes of Bush and Cheney repeating it over and over again though, just like they did about Iraq's weapons of mass destruction, and we all know how accurate and reality based that was.



posted on Apr, 23 2009 @ 04:34 AM
link   

Originally posted by platosallegory
reply to post by Ben Niceknowinya
 



If you can't play loud music, waterboard, talk to them loud, put them in a cold room or a room with bugs, how will you get information from them to save lives?


How about drugs? They've proven to be much more effective.

Seems like everyone you have discussions with is in "fantasy land"
so what's the point, right?

I'm going to bed.
You know what tho, I don't believe you're a soldier (no offense), becasue if you were, you wouldn't be making a fuss about being around bugs,or getting wet "in the bush.". As a matter of fact.....can I ask u:
where did you go 4 basic?
what's your MOS?
and what is your "field exercise" really called in basic training?
Atleast answer these 3......

and stop calling people liberals becasue they don't agree with your views, especially veterans.

freshman.



posted on Apr, 23 2009 @ 05:07 AM
link   
Wow the United States Constitution, and our Bill of Rights apply to terrorist now? You don't need to be a citizen of our country?? That's a interesting line of thought.. I'm sure that exactly who the founding fathers had intended these documents for. Not to regulate the Federal government or set the rights of its citizens. Can't be for protecting its own citizens or others who take the oath the become a citizen. The terrorist are not even a army so don't qualify under the Geneva convention, but I won't shed a tear for that sad fact either.

Been luring for awhile, but it is really sad to come on here and see people saying were not patriots! Why? Because some of us don't believe terrorist, who are not citizens of the United States and bent on taking you and your familys head on tv if at all possible, don't have the same rights as citizens of our country who DO fall under protections of the above documents. Get real!! If they are a citizen then there is a process that needs to be carried out, and they should have a jury etc..

I will agree that torture rarely accomplishes anything though. In fact threatening there family would get them to talk more than anything.. after all a lot really are blowing themselves up so there family can have $$. If they think the ones there doing it for are in danger they would turn.. I don't agree with that tatic, just saying it would be more effective than waterboarding BTW.


Now back to my normal lurking. If I'm wrong whatever, I don't think our founding fathers would consider a enemy who wants us blown off the earth a citizen.. I could be wrong but I feel they were not who these documents were intended for so stop throwing them around and claiming people are unpatriotic because they believe, as most Americans, and I'm sure everyone who signed the documents would agree too if they were alive.



posted on Apr, 23 2009 @ 05:09 AM
link   
Torture or no torture, ALL of the records need to be released, not just part of the records. Left wing trying to make the right look bad, otherwise they would release everything. Now the best part of this idea is to let everyone know, which would include the terrorist groups. I can't wait to see what the next attack to this country will bring and I can tell you this, it will happen with this administration because the terrorist groups already know what a pansy we have for a commander in chief and they also know, as in previous administrations, they will get a slap on the wrist if captured.

If this thwarted an attack on LA and saved hundreds or thousands of lives, what difference if some wuss who's afraid of bugs had to deal with them. These terrorists have no conscious and would willingly die at the drop of a hat in order to cause death and destruction within the US and many other places.

To the person who posted that basic training was torture, Amen! My other half was in the military and that's how it goes, then went on to be a Ranger, and if you think basic is bad, try Ranger school or special forces school. Two of my uncles were in WWII and POW's. Don't dare tell me that the US is the only country to apply torture tactics. Don't dare tell the families of the soldiers tortured and killed in Iraq we are the only ones that use torture. Tell that to Daniel Pearl's family.

We are talking about human beings, yeah, but human beings with no regard for human life.

If you are going to release torture records, release them ALL or don't release them. Fair is fair.



new topics

top topics



 
6
<< 4  5  6    8  9  10 >>

log in

join