Waterboarding thwarted attack on Los Angeles

reply to post by Redpillblues


Gee the thing is, we have NEVER had this situation arise.
You bring up exactly the "ticking time bomb" scenario that has never happened. Your fantasy is that each of these situations is like "24".
Even if this scenario were to come about, think about it, would torture work? If a committed Jihadi knows unequivocally about a dirty bomb or a massive car bombing about to happen in the U.S.; do you think they would readily give up that info? They have committed themselves to this cause and would not betray it. For them, death brings paradise so who cares if the American's kill you. On the other hand, they might snap and like Infinite said earlier in the thread, tell you where Santa Clause is, anything to get you to stop. So the info is useless anyway, AND you have wasted valuable time trying to get it.

The point of torture is and always will be torture. It does not get usable information and the U.S. gives up just a little bit more of its soul each time we stoop to the same level as those who killed Daniel Pearl or Nick Berg.
I always thought this fight was to protect us from these people, not turn us into them.

Obs out

reply to post by observer



And how do you know that we as a nation NEVER had this situation arise?

We will never know,we are only fed what we are supposed to know..
So I geuss your talking out your ass as much as I am..

But at the end of the day,either your for it or against it,not when it seems fit..And thats were the problem lies,as most with there backs to the wall will turn into what they bitch about..

reply to post by Logarock


Sorry but I am not going to condone the torture of terrorists or anyone else to prevent an attack.

Flame away but they are not the worst things to happen to Americans.

More people die of pneumonia, lightning strikes, car accidents

And if you continue to see yourself morally short because of it then you have been truley terrorized. To harm people for information is simply bringing us down to their level.

Originally posted by Redpillblues
reply to post by observer

 

And how do you know that we as a nation NEVER had this situation arise?

We will never know,we are only fed what we are supposed to know..
So I geuss your talking out your ass as much as I am..

But at the end of the day,either your for it or against it,not when it seems fit..And thats were the problem lies,as most with there backs to the wall will turn into what they bitch about..

My rear does not speak unless I have had a particularly fibrous meal.

And I would assume that since TPTB who ok'ed these techniques were complete glory hounds they would release this info poste haste to say "SEE IT WORKS!" Alas, they have not, even in the face of immense pressure to show that these techniques did anything other than torture people.

I would hope that if I were in the situation I would think clearly enough to do what was right. That is not the issue here. I doubt anyone on this board is gullible enough to assume that torture never happened prior to these memos, and while I do not condone that I am blind to reality. The REAL issue here is this: is it ok for the Executive Branch of the government to write legal opinions enshrining and outlining methods that are considered by every country on earth to be torture? I am not talking about the lone Jack Bauer scenario, those are few and far between I am sure (if they ever occur) but the President signing off on standardized torture procedure. It boggles the mind that anyone steeped in any history would not find this frightening. Jefferson and Franklin are horrified I am sure.
Torture was standardized by the Executive branch to be used on suspected terrorists. WE ASSUME that means Jihadi terrorists. But torture has this tendency to creep once it is ok'ed. Why not PETA members? Why not members of ELF? Why not Libertarians or Democrats? How about subversive internet users, like ATSer's?Who do you draw the line on? Ask those who lived through the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia or Pinochet in Argentina, does torture just stop at those who "deserve it" once it is released? I bet you would not like that answer.

Obs out

[edit on 22-4-2009 by observer]

Originally posted by LDragonFire
Just how many times did the last administration lie to us? Of course there going to tell use there illegal methods were successful, it's the only way of justifying there actions.

Im mean really would any of us by a car from any of these people?

WAKE UP!!!!!!!!

bingo!

www.cnsnews.com...



... Ok, stop right there.

Absolute bollocks.

Originally posted by Exuberant1

Originally posted by GenRadek
.... ah and then lets give them public defenders and try them in our courts...

An excellent idea.

This is exactly what should be done.

yea and how about after they are convicted, we pay for their jail stay??????? maybe you can, but i wont. pay for the enemy if you want

You treat these"slimeballs"with dignity,despite how much you hate them and you show the world an example of what is right and your integrity strengthens your security.Only when your principles have been sold for expediency or squandered in a power drunk do you need to resort to being the bully you hope in vain everyone else is scared of.And it is weak.And they are not really on our side,but waiting to help us be gone.When the time is right.And all our military power won't help us then.Best to have and maintain a moral compass.Who would Jesus torture or waterboard?Eye for an eye is so old school.

torture is torture. whether someone wants to kill us or not, as a country we need some sort of moral ground after the last 8 years of failed policies and blatant misuse of power. The world hates us, our economy i in the #ter, and by the States allowing torture would make matters worse.


...lol..I mean, we're pretty screwed as it is..lol

Originally posted by Stress
torture is torture. whether someone wants to kill us or not, as a country we need some sort of moral ground after the last 8 years of failed policies and blatant misuse of power. The world hates us, our economy i in the #ter, and by the States allowing torture would make matters worse.


...lol..I mean, we're pretty screwed as it is..lol

no one cares about morality when you are at a war with an enemy that isnt scared to die. you cannot have two rules in war, one for us and one for them. you either have one rule of equal power, or you take them all out without mercy.

I say go ahead and let the CIA torture their captives. Then Prosecute them for it.

The point is, it's illegal and it's immoral.

I know that there are people in custody that are intent upon murder. That doesn't mean we should lower ourselves to their level, or below.

Originally posted by nixie_nox
reply to post by Logarock

 

Sorry but I am not going to condone the torture of terrorists or anyone else to prevent an attack.

Flame away but they are not the worst things to happen to Americans.

More people die of pneumonia, lightning strikes, car accidents

And if you continue to see yourself morally short because of it then you have been truley terrorized. To harm people for information is simply bringing us down to their level.

Well I understand your position so am not going to flame away.

As far as morally short or whatever none of this type thinking, in a case like this, really enters into it for me. I really wouldn't get a kick out of it or do it to feed some thing I have. I would approach this like I would if a pit bull had my child in its mouth and refused to let go. Thats really it. Not becouse I am a sadist or something. Some would be trying to distract the dog with milk bone or something as if that going to work but hay at least they didn't get down on the dogs level. Others would complain about the treatment of the dog and demand that the dog whisperer be brought in. Meanwhile....

[edit on 22-4-2009 by Logarock]

[edit on 22-4-2009 by Logarock]

Originally posted by Dark Soldier

Originally posted by Stress
torture is torture. whether someone wants to kill us or not, as a country we need some sort of moral ground after the last 8 years of failed policies and blatant misuse of power. The world hates us, our economy i in the #ter, and by the States allowing torture would make matters worse.


...lol..I mean, we're pretty screwed as it is..lol

no one cares about morality when you are at a war with an enemy that isnt scared to die. you cannot have two rules in war, one for us and one for them. you either have one rule of equal power, or you take them all out without mercy.

Boy. Think about all we have done for the world over the years and now our moral position hinges on waterboarding mass murderers. Nobody cares so much really save for some that like to use our "morality" against us.

Anyway, with these "morality" types its always their morality and your ass on an issue like this. The same type that ordered soldiers in Nam and other places not to carry ammunition so we could send some type of message to the enemy. During Beirut operations the locals would send out young boys to toss grenades at us becouse they knew we had orders not to shoot at the young fellas. Or in Nam they would sometimes pack a small child with exsplosives and send the poor thing down the road becouse they knew we would give them candy and boom. After we killed a few the press called us baby killers. Again their main street american morality applied to inapplicability and your ass. Round hole square peg.





[edit on 22-4-2009 by Logarock]

I have been reading many articles on this issue and there have been calls for a "9/11 style commission" to investigate the enhanced interrogations by the military and CIA.In my view any commission would simply be trying to minimize the damage and to cover up everything else just like the other so-called "independent commissions."

Max, Just sharing my thoughts with everyone here. It's not directed at you.

Originally posted by Maxmars
They "thwarted" a "planned" attack.

Yet they never told the public. Until now. Yeah..., that works.

Had they told the public at the time, (Waterboarding not included.) how many people would call it fearmongering instead?

Had they told the public at the time, (Waterboarding included.) how many people would think "If that's what it takes to get results..., opposed to those who would say "This is torture and it isn't right."?

Everybody thinks differently and no matter what the Government, or anyone else says or does, they will never be able to please everyone. Whatever choice is made, it's a no win situation.


There's a whole bunch more thoughts about this running through my head at the moment, but I'm getting a bit ticked off thinking about them and that's not a good time to try to get those thoughts across. Maybe later.

If Americans were asked, the December following the 2001 attacks, if they thought waterboarding was an acceptable technique to find the people responsible and prevent future atttacks on the country, the percentage answering YES would be MUCH higher than it is today. Of that, I am ABSOLUTELY certain.

The people in this country disgust me at how quickly patriotism fades from their personality. Mainstream voters ride the wave of whatever is popular, and right now it is still popular to hate the previous administration. THAT is what drives this issue - not what's right, not some Americans who act like they give a damn about the rights of captured terrorists, but PURE HATE for the likes of Bush, Cheney and Rice.

Argue all you want, but none of you have definitive proof to prove the government wrong when it says that information gained from waterboarding did prevent an attack on Los Angeles. Maybe you or someone you know or even care for is still alive because of that tip. Keep that in mind before you attempt to grace the rest of us with your "benevolent vision" of just how wrong torture is.

[edit on 22-4-2009 by sos37]

Originally posted by Logarock

Boy. Think about all we have done for the world over the years and now our moral position hinges on waterboarding mass murderers. Nobody cares so much really save for some that like to use our "morality" against us.

Anyway, with these "morality" types its always their morality and your ass on an issue like this. The same type that ordered soldiers in Nam and other places not to carry ammunition so we could send some type of message to the enemy. During Beirut operations the locals would send out young boys to toss grenades at us becouse they knew we had orders not to shoot at the young fellas. Or in Nam they would sometimes pack a small child with exsplosives and send the poor thing down the road becouse they knew we would give them candy and boom. After we killed a few the press called us baby killers. Again their main street american morality applied to inapplicability and your ass. Round hole square peg.





[edit on 22-4-2009 by Logarock]

half the world hates us and has hated us way before this even took place, and most of those countries have no room to talk about morality

Germany: need i mention 6 million jews that they killed?

Russia: 20 million Russians killed by stalin

England: Opium war with china just because they didnt feel like spending gold or silver on chinese goods

Japan: Rape of Nanking and the notorious UNIT 731 from World War 2

Need i mention more?

America is about morals, but nice guys finish last, it has always been true and this is no different. We need the World War 2 generation back where we kick the tires and light the fires and not give a crap what other countries think of us.



[edit on 22-4-2009 by Dark Soldier]

I just wanna know where people are picking up there rose colored glasses at?..Its disgusting to think it,but the sad truth is that your absolutely correct.
The lack of ball and having to be PC is what killed this county..Things were allot different before vietnam and the spawn of the peace and love will cure all ailment bull#..

[edit on 23-4-2009 by Redpillblues]

Originally posted by Redpillblues
I just wanna know where people are picking up there rose colored glasses at?..Its disgusting to think it,but the sad truth is that your absolutely correct.
The lack of ball and having to be PC is what killed this county..Things were allot different before vietnam and the spawn of the peace and love will cure all ailment bull#..

[edit on 23-4-2009 by Redpillblues]

lets just look at attorney general holder. after 9/11 he stated that no terrorist captured should be allowed geneva convention rights. my how funny how he has all of the sudden changed his mind on the issue.


can you imagine if they actually did hit L.A.???? sean penn and charlie sheen would have commanded the battle into afghanistan

reply to post by Dark Soldier


Oh it gets better than that. Now captured terrorists will get the full protection of the U.S. Constitution! It starts with the guys at Guantanamo and next it will be extended to anypne captured during a time of war.

Next our generals will be told, "Let's not capture anyone anymore. In fact, we want you to use rubber bullets from now on to minimize enemy casualties."

BTW, Sean Penn is about as disgusting and anti-American as you can get, right down there with Jane Fonda. Since he wants to go live in Venezuela so badly, I say we send him on over.