Photos Stored in an Old Brownie Camera Pearl Harbor, page 2

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reply posted on 24-4-2009 @ 01:47 PM by Brother Stormhammer

The photos are impressive. Very much so.

As for "how could Pearl Harbor be a sneak attack?", you have to remember several things.

Yes, there was air-search radar at Pearl Harbor. On the other hand, radar (while not 'new' in a technological sense), was still 'new' in terms of integration into fleet operations. It also wasn't the precise, all-seeing eye that we're used to. It was something of a mystery to a great many officers, and as much an art as a science to even the best informed.

Yes, the US Navy could read encoded Japanese traffic. On the other hand, the break rate was in the neighborhood of 30% of intercepted code groups, and the time lag between interception, breaking, and translation was measured in weeks, not hours, or minutes. It was possible to tell that "something was going on"...but a specific "what" required more data that we usually didn't have.

Yes, it's perfectly obvious that what the Japanese did was possible...looking backward. At the time, we had no real idea of the Kido Butai's striking range, and the concept of multiple, coordinated carrier operations was as foreign to the US Navy as...well, Japanese. Take a look at Midway, and you'll see it...the utter lack of coordination between the American carrier groups is shocking, and that was six months and change *after* we'd seen coordinated multi-carrier ops from the receiving end.

Sorry...I'll buy into a lot of things being a conspiracy, but I've never been a big believer in the "Pearl Harbor was an inside job" line of thought...most of the arguments for that position assume that 1941 technology was closer to 1981's, or assume that the USN had some super-human ability that they were ordered not to use (usually the telepathic ability to read your enemy's mind).

reply posted on 24-4-2009 @ 01:55 PM by ImzadiDax

Those pictures make my heart hurt. How many people were screaming at that very second in time?

reply posted on 24-4-2009 @ 03:39 PM by Gawdzilla

reply to post by Brother Stormhammer

"Yes, the US Navy could read encoded Japanese traffic. On the other hand, the break rate was in the neighborhood of 30% of intercepted code groups, and the time lag between interception, breaking, and translation was measured in weeks, not hours, or minutes. It was possible to tell that "something was going on"...but a specific "what" required more data that we usually didn't have."

At the time of Midway we were reading about one word in ten. That was with six months of full-out war effort. And even if we were reading the Japanese code, someone would have to think Yamamoto was stupid enough to broadcast the plans. (Send 82 pages of plans by Morse code would have been fun to watch anyway.) Note also that the mooring bouys at Hittokapu Bay had telegraphic lines hardwired, so ships didn't need to receive radio BROADCASTS to get their info.

"Yes, it's perfectly obvious that what the Japanese did was possible...looking backward. At the time, we had no real idea of the Kido Butai's striking range, and the concept of multiple, coordinated carrier operations was as foreign to the US Navy as...well, Japanese. Take a look at Midway, and you'll see it...the utter lack of coordination between the American carrier groups is shocking, and that was six months and change *after* we'd seen coordinated multi-carrier ops from the receiving end."

The Japanese had to invent a refueling-at-sea system to make the trip. For some reason they considered this new technique to be secret worth keeping, so we didn't find out about it for years.

Anybody want to trot out the Russian freighter myth while we're here?

reply posted on 25-4-2009 @ 12:04 PM by Brother Stormhammer

reply to post by Gawdzilla

Are you sure about the one word in ten rate? I'd thought we were doing a bit better than that until the change to the JN-25 scheme just before Pearl Harbor.

As for the 'new' Japanese technique for refueling at sea, it may have been new to them, but line-astern UNREP wasn't particularly secret...the Germans used it, and the British and American navies had already switched to close-abeam setups. Did the IJN actually consider it secret? Not doubting you on that, but I've never seen a source that indicated it.

Personally, I'm about that close to suggesting that Pearl Harbor get its own forum, or at least a sticky post, since the "Inside Job" myth seems to pop up about once a month. Just once, I'd like to see one of the other Peal Harbor myths get some air time...my personal favorite is the "Midget Submarines Torpedoed Battleship Row" one. I haven't heard the "Russian Freighter" story, though...care to pass it along? I could use a good laugh!

[edit on 25-4-2009 by Brother Stormhammer]

reply posted on 25-4-2009 @ 12:29 PM by Gawdzilla

Originally posted by Brother Stormhammer
reply to post by Gawdzilla

Are you sure about the one word in ten rate? I'd thought we were doing a bit better than that until the change to the JN-25 scheme just before Pearl Harbor.

I'm quoting from memory, but that's what I got from various sources. Miracle at Midway, by Gordon Prange handles that well. My copy vanished, of course.

As for the 'new' Japanese technique for refueling at sea, it may have been new to them, but line-astern UNREP wasn't particularly secret...the Germans used it, and the British and American navies had already switched to close-abeam setups. Did the IJN actually consider it secret? Not doubting you on that, but I've never seen a source that indicated it.

It was secret because we didn't know they'd done any serious work on the subject. The north-south axis of the most likely advance by the Japanese would allow them to heave to off a sheltered coast for refueling in most cases, so we didn't figure they'd bother with endurance steaming necessities.

Personally, I'm about that close to suggesting that Pearl Harbor get its own forum, or at least a sticky post, since the "Inside Job" myth seems to pop up about once a month. Just once, I'd like to see one of the other Peal Harbor myths get some air time...my personal favorite is the "Midget Submarines Torpedoed Battleship Row" one. I haven't heard the "Russian Freighter" story, though...care to pass it along? I could use a good laugh!

[edit on 25-4-2009 by Brother Stormhammer]

Various Russian freighters are credited with sighting and reporting the Kido Butai. Strangely enough, Nagumo & Co. reported they were never spotted. If they had been, the other vessel would have been pummeled rather quickly. Additionally, Russian shipping records place all the vessels I've heard of being credited for the sighting in very bad locations to see any Japanese forces. Probably why they all completed their voyages.

reply posted on 25-4-2009 @ 12:44 PM by Aislin

Originally posted by punkinworks
I really love old photos, they give a view into a world long past.

I regularly go to the swap meet with my 16 year old. He collects and restores old hand tools. On more than one table, I've noticed boxes of old black and white photos for sale. It upsets me to see this. I can only see these photos as treasured memories of someone's past; priceless moments captured forever. I think about how the subjects of the photos were loved and loved others. Who were they? Did they not haved loved ones that wanted these photos? Kin that would cherish them and the memories they preserved? To see these photos thrown in a box to be sold for change to strangers tears at my heart.

Antar, thank you for sharing these. I appreciate it very much.

reply posted on 25-4-2009 @ 01:02 PM by silo13

reply to post by antar

Oh Antar!
Thank you SO MUCH for taking the time and effort to bring us these incredible photographs.
I know it sounds dorky but I find myself reaching out to touch my computer screen.
I know the facts presented to us by MSM about Pearl Harbor - but to see pictures so is just a phenomena to me.
Thank you

reply posted on 25-4-2009 @ 01:09 PM by shuck

Not sure what is happening here...I was was given a disk from my boss ( and he is not into computers or the 2nd world war) but he thought it would be of interest..

The story I was told was one of his relatives had died and was in the USA during the war and these were taken from on an old box brownie ..and the pics wre developed after his death..

Anyway...a friend on the net was interested and forwarded the to some American history place!!..

Bit shocked really ....Don't know wether to think I have been hoaxed..but I know I will ask on monday!!

reply posted on 25-4-2009 @ 01:09 PM by shuck

reply posted on 25-4-2009 @ 01:16 PM by Gawdzilla

Originally posted by shuck
Not sure what is happening here...I was was given a disk from my boss ( and he is not into computers or the 2nd world war) but he thought it would be of interest..

The story I was told was one of his relatives had died and was in the USA during the war and these were taken from on an old box brownie ..and the pics wre developed after his death..

Anyway...a friend on the net was interested and forwarded the to some American history place!!..

Bit shocked really ....Don't know wether to think I have been hoaxed..but I know I will ask on monday!!

I've received that email at least 8 times in the last four years. Always a different "person" that found it.

reply posted on 25-4-2009 @ 01:33 PM by shuck

Some people must have sad lives hoaxing stuff like that!!.

reply posted on 25-4-2009 @ 01:34 PM by shuck

It wasn't emailed ..it was on disk..

Anyway will make some enquiries monday!!

reply posted on 25-4-2009 @ 01:40 PM by Gawdzilla

Originally posted by shuck
Some people must have sad lives hoaxing stuff like that!!.

Most people are impressed, and pass it along without thinking about it. When I see something that is too good to be true, like "Don't call area code 215" or something, I google selected keywords and "hoax" to see what's being said about it. Then I make up my mind as to what to do about it.

reply posted on 26-4-2009 @ 02:38 PM by Brother Stormhammer

reply to post by Gawdzilla

Thanks for the info re: Russian Freighters.

Sorry to hear that your copy of Miracle at Midway vanished. It's a very good book. Might I recommend "Shattered Sword: The Untold Story of the Battle of Midway" by Jonathan Parshall & Anthony Tully? They had access to a huge amount of original Japanese source material, and they go into a good amount of detail regarding Japanese doctrine. They even manage to do it without being boring. One of my favorite lines (which is incredibly accurate): "It is necessary now to turn to an examination of Yamamoto's operational plan as it emerged in its final form, a task for which the reader would be well advised to pour a tall glass of spirits beforehand." No kido...err...kidding.

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