Originally posted by StellarX
Right, but according to the 'capitalist' system they force down our throats paid work is always more efficient than the community and volunteer work people used to do as part of a community? Why this protestation over the fact that people may now get paid to perform tasks that SHOULD be done but up until this point were unsupported and underfunded?

That isn't the issue. The issue, as pointed out multiple times by multiple posters, is that they are wanting to mandate volunteer work which by definition means it is no longer voluntary. During the draft, service in the military was mandatory for those they told to serve. The people didn't volunteer, they were required to serve. If they succeed in mandating volunteer work, people will no longer volunteer they will be required to serve.

Originally posted by Jenna
That isn't the issue. The issue, as pointed out multiple times by multiple posters, is that they are wanting to mandate volunteer work which by definition means it is no longer voluntary.

That i am well aware of but perhaps you are not aware that it is already legal ( jury 'duty' readily comes to mind ) and employed by the state in many instances.

As far as i am concerned this is just a question of what use this additional form of involuntary service will be to a society that mostly accepts jury duty.

During the draft, service in the military was mandatory for those they told to serve. The people didn't volunteer, they were required to serve.

Yes, another something that you should know that i know...... As we speak tens of thousands of Americans are serving involuntarty in Iraq so again my question is why there is a such a outrage over the potential for not entirely voluntary community service?

If they succeed in mandating volunteer work, people will no longer volunteer they will be required to serve.

Nonsense. People who wish to serve their community do so to the best of their abilities and getting renumeration for a certain number of those hours will reward their service in a way it never was before. There are many millions of Americans and people around the world who would ideally spend their days raising their own children, and helping our other mothers in the community ( as it used to be), but since day care and such is either heavily regulated and still based on economic incentives ( the mother who cares for a few children is forced to ask money for the 'service' to cover her own expenses) it is very impractical.

It's not that people suddenly lost their interest in serving the community but that the capitalist system totally undermines the practice by refusing to reward socially responsible practices in the only terms it respects; a salary.

You will be wasting your time if you wish to convince me that i do not know what the topic under discussion is or what you think it should be. Strict adherence to 'topics' can not be expected after it scope is ignorantly widened ( ZOMG, Obama is creating the hitler youht!!!!!!) by certain members. If the mods would step into the fray in a timely manner we may perhaps keep things more 'contained' but yes, that's not likely and i wont leave the displayed ignorance alone.

Stellar

[edit on 24-4-2009 by StellarX]

Originally posted by StellarX
That i am well aware of but perhaps you are not aware that it is already legal ( jury 'duty' readily comes to mind ) and employed by the state in many instances.

Yes I am aware of that. I also know that many people get out of jury duty, so they are not actually being forced to serve now are they.

Yes, another something that you should know that i know...... As we speak tens of thousands of Americans are serving involuntarty in Iraq so again my question is why there is a such a outrage over the potential for not entirely voluntary community service?

Yes they are, which is something I also strongly disagree with and would like stopped. That is not the topic of this particular thread, however. I pointed out the similarity between this and the draft because some in this thread cannot seem to grasp that being forced to do something takes away the voluntary aspect. Mandatory civil service is not volunteer work. If it is not ok to be forced into military service, why is it ok to be forced into civil service?

Nonsense. People who wish to serve their community do so to the best of their abilities and getting renumeration for a certain number of those hours will reward their service in a way it never was before.

You misunderstood me. I meant the people who are forced to volunteer will no longer be doing so willingly. Not that no one will volunteer.

There is no reason why they could not offer scholarships or some other form of reward without making service to the community mandatory. No reason whatsoever. There are incentives for "going green", yet it's not mandatory. There are incentives for volunteering for the military, yet it's not mandatory. Why must this be mandatory for incentives to be offered?

You will be wasting your time if you wish to convince me that i do not know what the topic under discussion is or what you think it should be.

I don't recall doing so. You asked a question, I provided my answer. Yet it's somehow my fault that some posters cannot seem to grasp what it is that many of us are against? Perhaps if it could be grasped we would no longer be repeating ourselves.

Originally posted by spinkyboo


The intention might even be a good one -
but the implementation and execution of this is way off base -

QFT

The intention is a good one.

Implementation is BS.

Originally posted by Jenna
Yes I am aware of that. I also know that many people get out of jury duty, so they are not actually being forced to serve now are they.

No more so than those who managed to avoid the draft by one means or another. I don't see how these programs wont have equal means of dodging even if they turned out to be as dangerous asthe military draft or criminal as the jury&justice system .

Yes they are, which is something I also strongly disagree with and would like stopped. That is not the topic of this particular thread, however. I pointed out the similarity between this and the draft because some in this thread cannot seem to grasp that being forced to do something takes away the voluntary aspect.

Agreed and i think as many people cannot seem to grasp that being strongly encouraged/rewarded to do something in the communities interest isn't 'evil' and certainly as 'off topic' as the protestations that it's a a 'great' thing. If you want to discuss how this system of 'involuntary service' can and perhaps will be abused perhaps you should create a thread about that or about the laws that are already being abused?

Mandatory civil service is not volunteer work. If it is not ok to be forced into military service, why is it ok to be forced into civil service?

Because in the civil service one can easily see how the community might become stronger by cooperating and even learn how to cooperate in resisting the state if these programs becomes abused. What there is to fear in these programs in a democratic state but the fear of the state that is supposed to act in your interest? I just don't see why this issue is noteworthy when the state has for long had much greater means of enslaving you.

You misunderstood me. I meant the people who are forced to volunteer will no longer be doing so willingly. Not that no one will volunteer.

Happy to be wrong. Do you help to put our fires in your neighbours house 'voluntarily' or do you do so based on the associated risks to your house? Do all volunteers do the work 'voluntary' ( i don't often enjoy volunteering; i just feel it's something that needs to get done and can't say no when asked to help) or do they mostly do so because they are the type of people who understand that SOMEONE needs to do it? Why should some have the chance to shirk their very real social responsibilities because they are either not socially developed enough to understand them or simply too lazy to care? How much of this work would have gotten done if everyone understood the needs of the community by being forced at least to take classes , at school , on the subject? What the hell else do we build schools for if not to socialize our children and them integrate more fully into our modern societies? Didn't we choose it?

There is no reason why they could not offer scholarships or some other form of reward without making service to the community mandatory. No reason whatsoever.

Well this bill didn't make it mandatory ( as the original post indicated) and does in fact offer rewards ( by increasing it's budget) and the like for any such services voluntary rendered. Again why shouldn't civil service be any less mandatory than the possibility of getting drafted and killed in war a government created out of practically thin air or serving on juries where you are in fact mostly serving to legitimize a system that puts more people in jail than ANY other.

If we want to talk about outrages and 'servitude&involutary slavery' why not talk about the 1 in 99 'free' Americans being in jail while the Chinese 'police state' only has 1 in 900 in jail? How many of the 2.3 million prisoners needs be in jail ( more than half is drug possession, overwhelmingly no record of any crime but possesion) and of the remaining many how many would commit the mostly economic crimes they are in jail for provided you just give them they money it would have cost to incarcerate them? That would easily amount to about 30 000 USD per person which is pretty good even if they didn't do any additional work? Maybe they could then volunteer in all that free time saving you the effort of being forced to? About as realistic a scenario as American kids being 'conscripted' to clean toilets and wash rehab hostels.

I just don't understand if this 'outrage' over this bill is from shear ignorance of the other systemic problems or if people are in informed and consider this to be the worse thing imaginable.

There are incentives for "going green", yet it's not mandatory.

Because they don't really want you to go green and become independent from corporate control; no surprise there. These icentives are a JOKE compared to the incentives offered to states to build jails and lock up people. But hey, those ARE all good reasons not to trust the state with mandating community service; god forbid community service might turn out to be like the prison industry factory work with 'rewards' of 50 cents per hour. We can't after all trust the people of the United states to prevent such a program from being either enacted or effectively implemented at state or county levels.

There are incentives for volunteering for the military, yet it's not mandatory. Why must this be mandatory for incentives to be offered?

It's not so much the incentives that gets people to join the military but the lack of economic choice coupled with popular propaganda about making the world a better place for both Americans and everyone else. Tag that propaganda and 550 billion spending ( Just pentagon; not veterans and other costs which ammounts to about 1000 billion per year) onto this 'involuntary' 'mandatory' 'community service' and you would have to beat Americans back with sticks to stop them joining in these economic times. Call it a 'new' , 'new deal' if you like and last i checked people were not forced to join those programs. I just don't see why you think Americans would be fooled into this when they could not be and were not back in the 30's ?

I don't recall doing so. You asked a question, I provided my answer. Yet it's somehow my fault that some posters cannot seem to grasp what it is that many of us are against?

I suspect it is your fault in terms of you not being able to graps that your worse fears are not ours and nothing has been signed or discussed just yet. Isn't job programs of practically any description good in a country with a unofficial ( but accurate) jobless rate of approaching 18% a good thing?

Perhaps if it could be grasped we would no longer be repeating ourselves.

Ditto. If only everyone were as smart as 'us'; i feel your pain.

Stellar