Is The Political "Right" Perpetuating a Conspiracy Against Christianity?

Originally posted by badmedia


Cool, so lets take 2 men who rape kids, and see which side Jesus is on. Just because you have 2 sides doesn't mean those are the only possible sides, nor does it mean someone will support either of those sides.

In fact, as it turns out, both sides can be wrong, and when dealing with hypocrites that is usually the case.

Because that is how hypocrites work, it's also how "satan" gets people of this world to do his bidding. Because people in wars and such only look at their own selfish point of view/perspective. They do not look at the other side of things. 1 side says - you attacked me, I attack you back. Other side says - you attacked me, I attack you back. And on and on it goes with such hypocrisy until one of them takes the advice of Jesus and looks at it from both sides. Then when you look at things from the other side, you can see the beam in your own eye, remove it and see clearly to remove it from the other side.

Anymore morally bankrupt and intellectually lacking arguments you guys want to make while trying to justify your wars and mistakes?

What are you going on about? Jesus wouldn't pick either man who decided to rape a child - but he would take the childrens side and put it into the hearts and minds of His REAL followers to protect them.

You want to talk about someone who is morally bankrupt - it is yourself, who just now brought to the board the scenerio of two men raping little children and then having the audacity to suggest the Lord's only choice is between the two stinking rotten men. WRONG. The only side to look at here is the childrens side. How God chooses to administer vengeance is entirely up to him in all matters.

God knows everything. He searches the hearts and minds of men and knows your deepest thoughts. He creates the good and evil and he is the one who raises Kings to bring nations to naught.

The Bible is clear on these things.

Very clear.

You seem to have a problem with God himself if He chooses to administer His justice through his right arm, through someone else besides himself.

Take it up with him.



[edit on 21-4-2009 by Myrtales Instinct]

Originally posted by JesusSaves2008
Badmedia,
To who do you refer to when you speak of the "father?" The only Father I know of carries a capital F. I find it amazing.... If you search the scriptures you will find the Lord speaking of people just like yourself.... yet you still do not get it.

Are you going to ask me why I don't eat with clean hands next? god, God, father, Father. None of these things matter.

Originally posted by Myrtales Instinct
What are you going on about? Jesus wouldn't pick either man who decided to rape a child - but he would take the childrens side and put it into the hearts and minds of His REAL followers to protect them.

You said exactly what I was going on about. You said before that Jesus would choose the side of 1 or the other if there was a war, so he obviously chooses sides. I was just making a point that just because there are 2 sides, it doesn't mean either of those sides correct.

Which you obviously understand once I put the 2 sides into something you know is bad. But you just showed exactly why Jesus wouldn't choose either side in a war.

You want to talk about someone who is morally bankrupt - it is yourself, who just now brought to the board the scenerio of two men raping little children and then having the audacity to suggest the Lord's only choice is between the two stinking rotten men. WRONG. The only side to look at here is the childrens side. How God chooses to administer vengeance is entirely up to him in all matters.

Oddly enough, I just did it for an example. You however do it for real with the war stuff. You are the one to suggest that God's must be on someones side in a war, when in reality he would be on neither side, but on the side of the innocent and trying to show them the truth of the situation. Funny how that works.

God knows everything. He searches the hearts and minds of men and knows your deepest thoughts. He creates the good and evil and he is the one who raises Kings to bring nations to naught.

The Bible is clear on these things.

Very clear.

Obviously not clear enough. Are you saying Hitler was put there by god? WRONG. Hitler was put there by men, and by the authority of THIS WORLD. Originally, god did not want to give man a king or government at all, as such are functions of evil by default(needed only because we are evil). The people demanded governments and such.

When it says god chooses the leaders, it means you get the leaders you deserve and need. The universe automatically changes in regards to giving lessons, it will automatically adjust to give what is needed. This is a built in function of reaping what you sow. Because such leaders are a reflection of the people. If the people allow and accept those evils, then they are subject to them.

To use that as a means of saying all kings and such are automatically right and supposed to be there etc is just another manipulation brought to you by the same authorities who get the power from such.

As a matter of fact, Hitler had people who went around quoting Romans to the people and telling them what you do as a means of gaining support. But I'm not fool enough to fall for it.

I think Jesus pretty much summed up who the authorities of this world were.

You seem to have a problem with God himself if He chooses to administer His justice through his right arm, through someone else besides himself.

Take it up with him.

No, I have a problem with people using God to justify their actions. I have a problem with people who carry out death and destruction in the name of the father. I have a problem with people who don't use intelligence in what they do.

Oh hey, I can predict the future too. This is what Christians will hear.

20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Because your fruits are ignorant and rotten. You walk a path of death and destruction and your actions show that. You talk about all the great works done in the name of Jesus, christianity and so forth, but the individual actions, such as killing people in wars, are sins.

[edit on 21-4-2009 by badmedia]

reply to post by badmedia


You are not thinking rationally here.

Are you saying God did not actively particpate in the wars Israel has fought?

Are you saying he had no part in letting them go into captivity on more than one occasion?

Are you saying he had no part in bringing them back to their land?

You don't have just timbers growing in your eyes - but actual trees, with roots.Lol

You are spiritually blind or you would understand how anointings take place and God works through people to bring about his will.

I somehow believe if Jesus was here right now he would mix up for you a bit of spit and mud to fix those trees that have taken root in your eyes.

Originally posted by Myrtales Instinct
reply to post by badmedia

 

You are not thinking rationally here.

Are you saying God did not actively particpate in the wars Israel has fought?

Are you saying he had no part in letting them go into captivity on more than one occasion?

Are you saying he had no part in bringing them back to their land?

You don't have just timbers growing in your eyes - but actual trees, with roots.Lol

You are spiritually blind or you would understand how anointings take place and God works through people to bring about his will.

I somehow believe if Jesus was here right now he would mix up for you a bit of spit and mud to fix those trees that have taken root in your eyes.

AMEN! HALLELUJAH!
AWESOME!

Originally posted by Myrtales Instinct
You are not thinking rationally here.

Are you saying God did not actively particpate in the wars Israel has fought?

Are you saying he had no part in letting them go into captivity on more than one occasion?

Are you saying he had no part in bringing them back to their land?

You don't have just timbers growing in your eyes - but actual trees, with roots.Lol

You are spiritually blind or you would understand how anointings take place and God works through people to bring about his will.

I somehow believe if Jesus was here right now he would mix up for you a bit of spit and mud to fix those trees that have taken root in your eyes.

So is it your claim that god told people to have all the recent wars and such? Are you saying that god told everyone to support the Iraq war and such?

I have no clue what happened in the past, it's all a story to me. All I know is that is what people have claimed for whatever reason. I'm sure many people would take the opportunity to say god told them to do something for support. And considering that back then, the kings and leaders of the time were called gods, I don't know.

I can't speak for others, so maybe he did, maybe he didn't. But the understanding and such the father gave me(that of Jesus) says that I should never in a million years do such a thing. And that is what I'll be basing my opinion on, not what people claim god told them thousands of years ago.

But why does god need me to kill someone? He doesn't.

Really, really interesting. Flag. And I haven't flagged a ton recently, so it's a big deal!

I always wondered if people felt this way. I'm not Christian but I kind of felt like Christian-Rights... evangelical is the word? Um, I'm not sure of the term, but the group being described. I always thought it made most real honest Christians feel bad. Because the emphasis isn't on good deeds or asking questions or happiness or even really protecting/caring for your family. And the emphasis isn't on peace or the teachings of Jesus, either. I do know enough about Christianity and enough Christians personally to understand the general positive idea. But some people almost seem to be extremists and I doubt it's really helping anyone!

I'm not sure if it's to try and get more Christians to be Right-Wing or more Right-Wingers to be Christian... I mean, I just don't know. But some of these people don't even know their Bible.


And the truth is, religion is very personal. It's not supposed to threaten others. It's not supposed to be about YOU keeping a gun or not getting a same-sex marriage or having an abortion. Isn't it supposed to be spiritual and about teachings and the right way to live to be accepted into heaven by God? How to help others and treat all humans well?

I'm not sure when religion became political or politics became religious. But I think it's a disgrace to Christians who are being marked up as automatically Right-Wing or.. whatever. Yes, many are. But not all.

reply to post by ravenshadow13


The people you mention are the same kinds of people Jesus dealt with. They were called pharisees back then. So whenever you see jesus dealing with the pharisees, then these are the people he is talking about.

www.answers.com...

Pharisee

1. A member of an ancient Jewish sect that emphasized strict interpretation and observance of the Mosaic law in both its oral and written form.
2. A hypocritically self-righteous person.

Now, on the outside and in public, they were considered some of the most moral people around, much like today's preachers and stuff(outside the scandals). But in reality, they were most hypocrites and such(as the bible shows).

If not for this fact, then I couldn't talk about Jesus in a positive way. If the followers and such were an actual reflection of him, then I'd never speak well of him. But as it turns out, he was completely against such functions specifically, so I don't equate them as being a reflection of him.

All the things Jesus dealt with are still present today, they just aren't called the same thing. You can't sit around and wait for someone to say "I'm a pharisee" and so on. Gotta look at their actions(fruits) in order to see who is who.

I call them the religion about Jesus, where as I myself belong to the religion of Jesus. Big difference.

btw, here is the part where God talks about governments and such on earth. The people demanded it.

www.biblegateway.com...

Skipping around a bit to save space, the entire conversation is from 4-22. God gives a very harsh warning about making such things.

1 Samuel 8

5And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.

7And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.

8According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt even unto this day, wherewith they have forsaken me, and served other gods, so do they also unto thee.

10And Samuel told all the words of the LORD unto the people that asked of him a king.

11And he said, This will be the manner of the king that shall reign over you: He will take your sons, and appoint them for himself, for his chariots, and to be his horsemen; and some shall run before his chariots.

more warnings.

18And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you; and the LORD will not hear you in that day.

19Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said, Nay; but we will have a king over us;

20That we also may be like all the nations; and that our king may judge us, and go out before us, and fight our battles.

21And Samuel heard all the words of the people, and he rehearsed them in the ears of the LORD.

22And the LORD said to Samuel, Hearken unto their voice, and make them a king. And Samuel said unto the men of Israel, Go ye every man unto his city.

When you accept such worldly authorities, you reject the father. Jesus didn't accept them, but you are telling me they are to be followed? And why? Because of Paul and his servitude to authority and his thirst for power over others.

Jesus says not to make yourself into any authority, that we are equal and the only true authority is the fathers. But apparently, you think Jesus is a liar? God is a liar? No, neither of them is the liar, you reject the father.

I can go on all day. If you want that king, that government and you want to serve Caesar, then be my guest. But realize who it is you serve, and who it is you reject in the process, because you can't serve 2 masters.

[edit on 21-4-2009 by badmedia]

reply to post by badmedia


You quoted Samuel, who a few verses later anointed David king and had so much blood on his hands he couldn't build the temple to house the ark. Yet David was a man after God's own heart.

What do you want me to say? War sucks? Fine. War does suck.

But God is the same today as he was back then and he doesn't change.

Jesus said his kingdom was not of this world but if it had been his servants would fight to have prevented his arrest. Say his second coming doesn't happen for a few hundred years and you die, go on to paradise and at some point he says "It's time." Would you mount a horse and become a part of the "armies of heaven" who follow him back or would you simply look at him and say, "You know what, I prefer peace... I'm not going with you."

You can't say for sure and neither can I that God didn't play a vital role in all wars throughout history.

Isaiah 40:23-25
"He brings princes to naught and reduces the rulers of this world to nothing. No sooner are they planted, no sooner are they sown, no sooner do they take root in the ground, than he blows on them and they wither, and a whirlwind sweeps them away like chaff. 'To whom will you compare me? Or who is my equal?' says the Holy One."


Isaiah 41:2-6
"'Who has stirred up one from the east, calling him in righteousness to his service? He hands nations over to him and subdues kings before him. He turns them to dust with his sword, to windblown chaff with his bow. He pursues them and moves on unscathed, by a path his feet have not traveled before. Who has done this and carried it through, calling forth the generations from the beginning? I, the Lord--with the first of them and with the last--I am he.' The islands have seen it and fear; the ends of the earth tremble. They approach and come forward; each helps the other and says to his brother, 'Be strong!'"

Isaiah 42:24-25
"Who handed Jacob over to become loot, and Israel to the plunderers? Was it not the Lord, against whom we have sinned? For they would not follow his ways; they did not obey his law. So he poured out on them his burning anger, the violence of war. It enveloped them in flames, yet they did not understand; it consumed them, but they did not take it to heart."

Isaiah 45:1-2
"This is what the Lord says to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I take hold of to subdue nations before him and to strip kings of their armor, to open doors before him so that gates will not be shut: I will go before you and will level the mountains; I will break down gates of bronze and cut through bars of iron."

Isaiah 46 10-11
"I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please. From the east I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose. What I have said, that will I bring about; what I have planned, that will I do."

But the evidence suggests he does.

That happened after and only because the people demanded a king like the other nations. God did not want them to have a king period. He was the only legit authority and said those who wanted a king reject him. Obviously we got kings and leaders and such after, but the point was it was not the way wanted. Sorry, there is nothing you can say that changes that.

Do you kill the child who swears at it's parents and so forth? Afterall, it was written and said by god according to you, and since he doesn't change(he doesn't, but mans understanding and the times do) then does that mean you are not doing the right thing?

Of course, you'd probably be appalled if someone did such things to a child. And rightfully so. But it only goes to show you do not argue because the bible or god says so, you argue based on your own biases. I have no problem at all not killing a child and if god asked me to, then I would reject him.

As for Jesus, it depends on what you mean by fight. I fight on a daily basis, but I do not do it in sin. Jesus said think not I come in peace, for I come with the sword. But he didn't hurt anyone, and heals the man who gets his ear cut off. When you say "peace" that implies I will compromise for it, I will not. I don't care about peace, I care about right and wrong. No compromise from me on those who do the wrong things.

Am I going to come to earth and kill a bunch of people and so forth? No way, I would reject Jesus and god completely. I care about right and wrong, not who. I don't accept Jesus because I think it "saves me", I don't accept Jesus because it's in the bible, and I don't accept Jesus because authority tells me too. I accept Jesus based on the understanding I have gained and the fact that he repeats that understanding. Thus, if he no longer represents that understanding, then he is no longer the same person. As the name doesn't make the person, their actions and such do. Change that about Jesus, and he's just another sinner.

Let me guess, you think anything he does is automatically not a sin, rather than he just didn't do things that were sins. Ignorant.

You can't say for sure and neither can I that God didn't play a vital role in all wars throughout history.

But you are the one using it to say your actions are justified. Even though you were not told to do anything of the sort. Even if god did do such things, he still told those people to do it, and he didn't tell you to.



[edit on 22-4-2009 by badmedia]

Originally posted by Myrtales Instinct
Jesus said he came to not bring peace but a sword, fire & war, I promise you this - there is righteousness to be found in a lesson here. You may not understand it now or be able to see past it but that is why God's ways are higher than our own.

Yeah, it is also claimed that he said that "He came to fulfill the law, not change it," yet, he did many things on the sabbath, which at the time was considered a mortal sin... He healed, preached, et cetera on the sabbath, which is one of the accusations which was leveled against Christ. "Look it up."

reply to post by ravenshadow13



Well, if one were to practice Christianity as the Bible tells one to do, one would do it in the confines of their own homes. The bible states that one should pray in secret, not laud it around. In that regard, you are certainly correct.

The point of this thread was not really to "bash" Christianity. What I am saying is that there is a conspiracy being waged against Christianity and many don't seem to take it for what it is. The whole "Rapture" thing is part of the "Great Delusion" that so many Christians seem to be fearful of. Yet, a great many, seem to fall for it hook,line and sinker.

Originally posted by octotom
The rapture isn't so that Christians will escape any harm, but a specific period of time--the Tribulation. Beyond Tim LaHaye, there are plenty of other biblical scholars that hold to the pretribulational rapture view, so it's not just a fringe teaching/idea.

I do agree with the title of this thread though--I do feel that the right wing political machine, latching onto Christianity, has been a conspiracy theory of sorts against Christians. I say this because, due to the right wing pulling Christianity through the mud as they have, many people have grown angry and hostile toward evangelical Christianity due to the distorted view of it that's shown.

Well, to the latter point of your post, I suppose that is entirely my point. I think that the "Right" has portrayed a pretty ugly picture of Christianity, and, I must say, though I am not an ORTHODOX Christian, it is unfortunate.

To the former, the "Rapture" is an ideal that wasn't concocted until 1830. Here is a link to a previous thread I did on the whole topic: Lahaye's "Rapture" Ideology

Now, while it is true that God's people have always been protected during times of trials and tribulation, at no point was there ever a "wisping away."
I don't mean to sound insulting, but to me, the whole "Rapture" idea is nothing more than escapism at its worst.

[edit on 22-4-2009 by SpeakerofTruth]

reply to post by Myrtales Instinct


Honestly, I think that most people used God as a crutch for their own actions "back then," as you say. I mean, we still do it today. Someone does something heinous and typically, not always, people say "Oh God wanted me to do it," or "The devil told me to do it." Do you know what that is called? The lack of personal responsibility for one's actions.



[edit on 22-4-2009 by SpeakerofTruth]

I find it hilarious that Badmedia seems to feel the need to downplay someone else's "experience" with God.

It isn't indicative to me of someone who has received divine wisdom and understanding but, rather, reeks of "MY experience/visions were legit! YOURS weren't."

As though validation was ever truly had on the internet...

Originally posted by Roark
I find it hilarious that Badmedia seems to feel the need to downplay someone else's "experience" with God.

It isn't indicative to me of someone who has received divine wisdom and understanding but, rather, reeks of "MY experience/visions were legit! YOURS weren't."

I guess you might have a good point except that I am going by what their actions are. Believe it or not, but once you know for yourself, you can tell among others if they are legit or not based on what they say.

Jesus calls this looking at their fruits. And when I look at his fruits I see someone who is walking and supporting the path of death and destruction. Not a peacemaker and so forth.

Thus it is based on things like that, and has nothing to do with "my experience is legit and yours weren't". I have no idea what his experience was, but I know what he says isn't right.

John 14:12Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Call me crazy, make me out as trying to put myself over others or whatever. But that sounds to me like if you claim to have and do such a thing, then they would be acting in a certain way.

As though validation was ever truly had on the internet...

Oh yeah, you got me pegged there. That is exactly what I'm after.

reply to post by SpeakerofTruth

Now, while it is true that God's people have always been protected during times of trials and tribulation, at no point was there ever a "wisping away."

First, let me say, no worries, you weren't rude or insulting so, no offense taken.

There is an example of God wisping someone away in the Bible before a judgement happened--Enoch. Enoch was alive during the generation that perished during the flood but he was taken away by God before the flood and thereby escaped it.

Another thing to look at is the book of Revelation. First, in 3.10, Jesus tells the church of Philadelphia that they'd be kept from the hour of testing. Kept implies not even having been in it. Second, in Revelation 4, there are 24 elders in heaven that are wearing crowns. Only Christians get crowns--they're their rewards. this chapter comes before the start of the Tribulation, which comes in chapter six. So, that seems to show us that the church is in heaven before the poop hits the fan.

Looking at the Greek in 1 Thessalonians 4-5 seems to indicate that Paul viewed the rapture and the second coming as two separate events.

1830 isn't quite when the pretribulational rapture view was first thought of. That date is however when it was first popularized, by men like Darby. Throughout church history, there have been those who have held to a pretribulational rapture view and, like today, those who haven't.

While I believe in a pretribulational rapture, if I'm still here once the Tribulation starts, so be it. That just means that I was wrong and there is still work to be done on Earth. A disagreement over an issue like this needn't drive Christians apart. I still have fellowship with those who don't believe in this view. It bugs we when Christians won't fellowship with others simply because they don't believe the exact same things. [I'm sure many Christians wouldn't talk to me anymore if they knew that I looked at a site like this!]

reply to post by octotom


I figured you'd mention Enoch.... Enoch is said to have "walked with God." I don't necessarily think that anyone, at least in this day and age, can be said to "walk with God."

We live in a society which has moved further and further away from spirituality... To my notion, Enoch was spiritual, not religious. There is a difference.